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The Editors Cut

Episode 087- A Small Light & Pachinko with Susan E. Kim

Episode 087: A Small Light & Pachinko with Susan E. Kim

Episode 087 - A Small Light & Pachinko with Susan E. Kim

Sarah Taylor, CCE sits down with Susan E Kim, editor behind A SMALL LIGHT and PACHINKO.

Susan has worked across a range of content, including unscripted work, commercials and music concerts. She has been an Assistant Editor on projects that include the Emmy-winning HBO series EUPHORIA and the Duplass Brothers HBO anthology series, ROOM 104.

Susan discusses the importance of collaboration in the editing process and how it’s important for editors to bring their unique perspective and voice to their projects.

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The Editor’s Cut – Episode 030 – “What is Anti-Oppression? With Tenniel Brown”

Sarah Taylor [00:00:01]

Hello and welcome to The Editor’s Cut. I’m your host Sarah Taylor. At the CCE, we began our journey of self education with Anti-Oppression training in 2019. It was invaluable for us as it provided us with tools to assess how we as an organization could set a course of action to root our unconscious and systematic bias in our operations. This training is now a permanent part of our budget so future board members and volunteers can continue this work, and equity can be part of the fabric of our organization. We are offering a Lunch and Learn Introduction To Anti Oppressive Communication with Tenniel Brown on July 27. Today I’m lucky to be able to sit down with Tenniel Brown and discuss what Anti-Oppressive training is and what we can expect from this webinar. Tenniel Brown is a passionate anti-racist anti oppression and mental health speaker dedicated to improving the experiences of marginalized people in all institutional settings. She is the founder of the Centre For Anti-Oppressive Communication which specializes in providing anti oppressive, trauma-informed counseling, clinical supervision and organizational consulting, as well as customized workshops training and team retreats. I’m joined with Tenniel Brown, she is the founder of the Centre For Anti-Oppressive Communication based in Toronto. And we just want to have a little conversation about why anti oppression work is important in this and all days but specifically right now. So can you just tell us a little bit about your background and why you started the Center For Anti-Oppressive Communication.

Tenniel Brown [00:01:41]

My background is as a psychotherapist. So I spent I’ve spent many many years working with individuals and couples and families and groups helping them to access more of their well-being by addressing different mental health issues specifically trauma. One of the things that I specialize in addressing is racialized trauma. But also trauma that comes from folks that have experienced different types of oppression. And I think for most people that are called to this type of work it’s quite personal for me right. So often when you don’t see the work that you know needs to happen in the community taking place you create it. And so that was me. You know I think I saw that there was a need for organizations to have somebody come in and not just talk about diversity inclusion but talk about what happens when certain identities have power and that unbalance of power and how to actually address that in our communication. I knew that out in the community there were therapists and social workers that were wanting to do better work. You know work in the best practice way with clients that are black, racialized, queer, and trans, and had nowhere to go to get supervision and support. And finally I knew personally that there were so many folks that when they were ready to do therapy work they needed to see someone sitting across the office that looked like them or had a very similar lived experience and they just were not going to come unless that was the case. So all these things I knew was happening and nobody was doing it. And I said someone’s got to do something and that was me. I think what needs to come out of what’s happened in June is for folks to see black professionals and black community in in the in sort of like the the brilliance of what we do and it’s not uncommon that in many cases where we don’t see ourselves we create it. So yeah that was the spirit of and I think that when I started the organization I knew that it was important for there to be a place where folks from those different backgrounds could come and get that support and information. So it’s a real passion of mine. It is my baby and it’s so beautiful to see folks wanting this information during this time.

Sarah Taylor [00:04:01]

Yeah so important. Can you tell us what Anti-Oppression means and what someone can expect by taking an anti oppressive workshop?

Tenniel Brown [00:04:10]

Sure absolutely. So when you sort of break down the word anti oppression anti oppressive practice we take a look at that anti part and essentially that that just means opposition to oppression and then the practice part. So AOP… the practice part pertains to the context in which you are practicing opposition to oppression. So you can apply an anti oppressive lens to just about anything. And I’ve had the opportunity to work with organizations like Pride Toronto and work with your curators to apply an anti-oppressive lens to the way they do event organizing. I have applied an anti oppressive lens to the way I do therapy and clinical supervision with other therapists. You can apply an anti oppressive lens to teaching. You can apply it to student advising, you can apply it to just about anything. I’ve been working with fitness professionals looking at applying an anti oppressive lens to the way that they support folks that are on their fitness journey. So so it’s about looking at whatever practice whatever context you are working in and using that platform to be able to oppose oppression and all of its forms. So that’s essentially what it is.

Sarah Taylor [00:05:29]

And so when someone takes courses like anti oppressive communication course or participates in your courses what can they expect to be talking about or learning?

Tenniel Brown [00:05:37]

Absolutely so I think one of the most important things is to sort of pull back a little bit of you know the cover on this because I think anti oppressive language is its own language. It’s like Spanish. And you see so many people getting themselves into some rather serious trouble these days because they actually don’t know the language they don’t understand… in some ways the harm of some of the things that they’re doing and saying the deep harm of that. You get a lot of people who don’t really know how to talk about these issues. And so you go into a shame spiral and you just don’t talk. You just get very quiet and I always argue that you know the silence piece is a part of how we got ourselves into this trouble as a human society in the first place. So what I offer is something for everybody. I think over the years what folks have said to me is is even somebody who’s maybe got a social work background and knows about anti oppressive practice when they come to one of my trainings they find that they are moved further along in their application of that perspective around “OK, well what does this mean when I’m interacting with somebody right here in a one on one context.” Other people that are completely brand new have never had the chance to learn any of this language or understand any of these concepts have said over the years that they felt like they left with a really good sense of what this topic is. But not just that practical skills. I’m all about practical skills. I want to offer things that folks can use tomorrow today and the next day and my mission is also for folks to leave his training and talk about it. Tell a friend, tell a colleague, tell a family member, and feel equipped to be able to engage in these conversations. So when someone is saying or doing something problematic, you have this confidence in the skills to be able to interpret what’s going on there and to be able to talk to them and to be able to address it. The other thing that I do is I couch everything that I do in my trainings in a self care and team care perspective. And I think this is very important. We have to look after our emotions. We have to look after ourselves and we have to look after each other. I always say you could be as anti oppressive as you want but if you haven’t had any lunch… if you haven’t eaten anything… you’re not good.

Sarah Taylor [00:07:57]

You’ve got the hangries!

Tenniel Brown [00:07:59]

Trust me, Anti-Oppressive work requires patience. It requires empathy. It requires compassion and self compassion. You will fall down a lot and I find you know and I talk a lot about cancel culture and don’t get me wrong really that could be its own podcast.

Sarah Taylor [00:08:19]

Totally. Especially in this industry.

Tenniel Brown [00:08:22]

Look we need to talk about this and I get why certain people are being canceled for sure. And yet as someone who does this work I recognize that I’m so thankful I wasn’t canceled because over the years I’ve done and said things before I knew before I took a course like this before I had an opportunity to learn what was problematic about my lens. I’m so thankful that I was able to make those mistakes in a safe environment and actually benefit from that and grow. So people get a safe environment to learn language and understand what is going on, what is oppression, if oppression is so bad why don’t we just stop this. Well I unpack that for folks. Why is this so complicated and why doesn’t this just stop. And then I provide practical skills for folks to be able to apply this to their lives and their communication. I think the other thing that I think folks get is not just sort of a general whatever, you’ll find that I’m really interested in applying it to film editors and what it is that you do on a regular basis and looking at how you can use your platform to be able to actually oppose oppression.

Sarah Taylor [00:09:31]

Yeah well it’s like it’s huge I know for myself we did anti oppression workshop as a board for the CCE. I’m in an interracial marriage and so I thought “Oh I know a lot.” Like I’ve been unpacking this stuff for a while and understanding in my own way. But also like kind of like how do I say it to my white uncle who is racist like how do I approach that. And by taking that one course, like you said I got so much more understanding of where people might come from and the language and I could approach it not by just being angry because anytime I’d hear anything I was like “You’re talking about my husband, you’re talking about my child! This is not OK!” And so it made a huge impact on me and I felt like I kind of knew some stuff but I realized that there was so much more to learn. And I think I’m still learning and it’s opened up even conversations I’ve had with my husband and my in-laws… and so I think people who are in my situation are like “no I’m cool I got I’m married to so-and-so or I have my best friend or whatever.” You grew up in your lens and there’s way more to learn and unpack.

Tenniel Brown [00:10:41]

Absolutely. Absolutely it’s so true. And I always say that absolutely positively nobody gets a pass on this.

Sarah Taylor [00:10:48]

100 percent.

Tenniel Brown [00:10:49]

At all. You know myself as someone who identifies as a black fem queer woman, you know folks would be like well you know you of course you couldn’t oppress. And it’s like yes we are all susceptible to experiencing oppression and we are all oppressors. So I have aspects of my identity that allow me to have privilege. And the thing about this is that if you’re not aware of those things that’s how you harm people that’s how you engage in micro aggressions. You know what I mean? That’s how you you know get striking up a conversation with someone about your latest renovation in your house when this person is still renting and doesn’t even have access. These are the types of things that you’re never protected from. Right. Like you’re not protected from that in a certain way. So it’s really important to remember that.

Sarah Taylor [00:11:40]

Where should someone start if they’re like feeling overwhelmed they’re like wow I know that I need to make this change. I’ve seen all this information now on social media and I’m saying all the wrong things and like you said I’m just going to be quiet which is not the right thing to do. So where do they go and what should they focus on first to just like get into this mindset of making these changes?

Tenniel Brown [00:12:02]

That’s a great question. And what I would say is education. Not a coincidence right? So of course you know joining with you know your organization to offer this to the community because I think that’s step number one. I think we do need to have good information about… you need to educate yourself. I would say that it’s a really important first step to really listen, and I find even when you have more information and you have more training it even improves the way that you can listen because what you find is when you don’t have that knowledge there’s certain things that are sort of prevent you from even being open. So I find the training and the skills and the confidence that you get from doing the course like this allows you to even listen deeper right and understand more and I think that that’s step number one. I think that once… but don’t stay there! Because I think a lot of people oh I’m listening but really it’s just their guilt and shame. So yeah they’re still not doing anything but once you’ve had the chance to listen you now can start thinking more about your platform and I think that’s one of the most important thing for your listeners to know that if it’s like well I’m not a social worker I’m not a therapist what’s this got to do with me it’s like it has everything to do with you. You have a platform as a film editor and it’s important for you to acknowledge that there are big ways and small ways that you can make a difference. And we all have a responsibility. What’s happened in this world since COVID what’s happened in this world since June is we can no longer close our eyes to this. We have to look at this and all the years that we have stayed silent on this has been what’s caused the problem. So the reality is is that we all are called to use our platform to be able to address this to look around the room and be like who isn’t here? To look around your history of the films that you and different projects you’ve been involved in and being like how many of these people, how many of these stories featured stories that were outside of what we usually see? Right. And looking at the ways that you can use your platform and your influence to be able to make a change, so we’re all called to do that I don’t care if you’re a child care worker or a housekeeper do some working at a gas station, it literally doesn’t matter we’re all a part of this human society. We all have some sort of platform and so we all have a responsibility to do something. You know Sarah one of my favorite slogans that’s come out of the protest is “Silence is Violence.” I love that one because I know what happens when people don’t have education and knowledge. They go into a shame cycle they go into a guilt cycle and they go into fear and you know what happens there? Shh. And you know what, that doesn’t help anybody at all. So I recognize that these are difficult things for us to unpack but we all have a responsibility to use whatever platform we have to make a difference. So starting by educating yourself, listening a lot, and then that’s going to help you to be more open to what you can do. And then looking at your platform whether that be personal or professional to make a change.

Sarah Taylor [00:15:20]

That was perfect. Yeah. That’s huge. And even since I took my training and even just since I’ve done my own inner work I noticed like I wouldn’t pick certain shots anymore or there’ll be things in my edit where I’m like “that’s a stereotype” or “No that’s not going to work. We can’t do that we can’t have that.” And so I think if everybody’s doing that then what we’re seeing on screen can start changing.

Tenniel Brown [00:15:45]

Absolutely. Absolutely and there’s these you know there’s there’s big ways and then there’s little ways like you describe. So it’s it is about really curating your lens, right and making sure that you’re seeing more and I think training like this just helps you to really open up your lens. So you’re not just seeing directly what’s in front of you work to the side of you but it’s more of like a panoramic view which you folks really need in the work that you do.

Sarah Taylor [00:16:09]

100 percent. Yeah. Well I hope that our membership joins us. I know we’ve already been getting people RSVPing which is very exciting. On July 27 2020 to learn and to unpack and to take part and just hopefully we can continue to do stuff with you and just keep educating and making the changes we can make.

Tenniel Brown [00:16:28]

Yeah. Join us. Join us. Don’t hesitate folks. Be a part of this. I’m really looking forward to working with everybody. And you know what we’re gonna have fun. I know these topics are really heavy but we’re gonna have some fun and we’re really going to connect with each other as a community so I look forward to meeting everybody at this training.

Sarah Taylor [00:16:46]

Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today and I look forward to seeing you on the 27th and continuing my journey. So thank you for doing this for us and thank you for sharing your knowledge and your experience with the world. So thank you so much.

Tenniel Brown [00:16:59]

You’re so welcome. Thanks for having me.

Sarah Taylor [00:17:03]

Thank you so much for joining us today. And a big thank you goes to Tenniel Brown and a special thanks to Maureen Grant and Jane MacRae. If you’d like to connect with Tenniel, you can find her on Instagram @TennielBrown. If you’d like to bring Tenniel into your organization to learn more about anti oppressive work, you can check out her website at brownconsulting.com. I look forward to learning more from Tenniel on July 27 2020 at the CCE Lunch and Learn I hope to see you there. The CCE has been supporting BIPOC TV and FILM. BIPOC TV and FILM is a grassroots organization and collective of black, indigenous, and people of colour in Canada’s TV and film industry. From writers, directors, producers, and actors, to editors, crew members, and executives. Their members are a mix of emerging, mid-level, and established industry professionals. BIPOC TV and FILM is dedicated to increasing the representation of BIPOC both in front and behind the camera. If you would like to donate to BIPOC TV and FILM please head to their website at bipoctvandfilm.com. The CCE is taking steps to build a more equitable ecosystem within our industry and we encourage our members to participate in any way they can. 

The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall. Additional ADR recording by Andrea Rusch. Original music provided by Chad Blain. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends to tune in. Til next time I’m your host Sarah Taylor.

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The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member please visit our website www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

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Credits

A special thanks goes to

Kimberlee McTaggart, CCE

Alison Dowler

Hosted and Produced by

Sarah Taylor

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Original Music by

Chad Blain

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Sponsored by

DGC Alberta

Categories
The Editors Cut

Episode 085 – Barbie with Nick Houy, ACE

Episode 85: Barbie with Nick Houy, ACE

Episode 085 - Barbie with Nick Houy, ACE

This episode is an EditCon 2024 exclusive episode of The Editor's Cut with Nick Houy, ACE the editor behind the blockbuster hit BARBIE.

Nick Houy, ACE, is a film editor based in New York. Before editing BARBIE, Houy edited both of Greta Gerwig’s previous Oscar-nominated films, LITTLE WOMEN, and LADY BIRD for which he was nominated for the ACE award in 2017. Houy also won the Emmy Award in 2017 for editing the miniseries, THE NIGHT OF. He was nominated for the Independent Spirit Award for editing MID90S in 2018, and in 2022 Houy edited the critically acclaimed Netflix documentary, STUTZ.

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The Editor’s Cut – Episode 030 – “What is Anti-Oppression? With Tenniel Brown”

Sarah Taylor [00:00:01]

Hello and welcome to The Editor’s Cut. I’m your host Sarah Taylor. At the CCE, we began our journey of self education with Anti-Oppression training in 2019. It was invaluable for us as it provided us with tools to assess how we as an organization could set a course of action to root our unconscious and systematic bias in our operations. This training is now a permanent part of our budget so future board members and volunteers can continue this work, and equity can be part of the fabric of our organization. We are offering a Lunch and Learn Introduction To Anti Oppressive Communication with Tenniel Brown on July 27. Today I’m lucky to be able to sit down with Tenniel Brown and discuss what Anti-Oppressive training is and what we can expect from this webinar. Tenniel Brown is a passionate anti-racist anti oppression and mental health speaker dedicated to improving the experiences of marginalized people in all institutional settings. She is the founder of the Centre For Anti-Oppressive Communication which specializes in providing anti oppressive, trauma-informed counseling, clinical supervision and organizational consulting, as well as customized workshops training and team retreats. I’m joined with Tenniel Brown, she is the founder of the Centre For Anti-Oppressive Communication based in Toronto. And we just want to have a little conversation about why anti oppression work is important in this and all days but specifically right now. So can you just tell us a little bit about your background and why you started the Center For Anti-Oppressive Communication.

Tenniel Brown [00:01:41]

My background is as a psychotherapist. So I spent I’ve spent many many years working with individuals and couples and families and groups helping them to access more of their well-being by addressing different mental health issues specifically trauma. One of the things that I specialize in addressing is racialized trauma. But also trauma that comes from folks that have experienced different types of oppression. And I think for most people that are called to this type of work it’s quite personal for me right. So often when you don’t see the work that you know needs to happen in the community taking place you create it. And so that was me. You know I think I saw that there was a need for organizations to have somebody come in and not just talk about diversity inclusion but talk about what happens when certain identities have power and that unbalance of power and how to actually address that in our communication. I knew that out in the community there were therapists and social workers that were wanting to do better work. You know work in the best practice way with clients that are black, racialized, queer, and trans, and had nowhere to go to get supervision and support. And finally I knew personally that there were so many folks that when they were ready to do therapy work they needed to see someone sitting across the office that looked like them or had a very similar lived experience and they just were not going to come unless that was the case. So all these things I knew was happening and nobody was doing it. And I said someone’s got to do something and that was me. I think what needs to come out of what’s happened in June is for folks to see black professionals and black community in in the in sort of like the the brilliance of what we do and it’s not uncommon that in many cases where we don’t see ourselves we create it. So yeah that was the spirit of and I think that when I started the organization I knew that it was important for there to be a place where folks from those different backgrounds could come and get that support and information. So it’s a real passion of mine. It is my baby and it’s so beautiful to see folks wanting this information during this time.

Sarah Taylor [00:04:01]

Yeah so important. Can you tell us what Anti-Oppression means and what someone can expect by taking an anti oppressive workshop?

Tenniel Brown [00:04:10]

Sure absolutely. So when you sort of break down the word anti oppression anti oppressive practice we take a look at that anti part and essentially that that just means opposition to oppression and then the practice part. So AOP… the practice part pertains to the context in which you are practicing opposition to oppression. So you can apply an anti oppressive lens to just about anything. And I’ve had the opportunity to work with organizations like Pride Toronto and work with your curators to apply an anti-oppressive lens to the way they do event organizing. I have applied an anti oppressive lens to the way I do therapy and clinical supervision with other therapists. You can apply an anti oppressive lens to teaching. You can apply it to student advising, you can apply it to just about anything. I’ve been working with fitness professionals looking at applying an anti oppressive lens to the way that they support folks that are on their fitness journey. So so it’s about looking at whatever practice whatever context you are working in and using that platform to be able to oppose oppression and all of its forms. So that’s essentially what it is.

Sarah Taylor [00:05:29]

And so when someone takes courses like anti oppressive communication course or participates in your courses what can they expect to be talking about or learning?

Tenniel Brown [00:05:37]

Absolutely so I think one of the most important things is to sort of pull back a little bit of you know the cover on this because I think anti oppressive language is its own language. It’s like Spanish. And you see so many people getting themselves into some rather serious trouble these days because they actually don’t know the language they don’t understand… in some ways the harm of some of the things that they’re doing and saying the deep harm of that. You get a lot of people who don’t really know how to talk about these issues. And so you go into a shame spiral and you just don’t talk. You just get very quiet and I always argue that you know the silence piece is a part of how we got ourselves into this trouble as a human society in the first place. So what I offer is something for everybody. I think over the years what folks have said to me is is even somebody who’s maybe got a social work background and knows about anti oppressive practice when they come to one of my trainings they find that they are moved further along in their application of that perspective around “OK, well what does this mean when I’m interacting with somebody right here in a one on one context.” Other people that are completely brand new have never had the chance to learn any of this language or understand any of these concepts have said over the years that they felt like they left with a really good sense of what this topic is. But not just that practical skills. I’m all about practical skills. I want to offer things that folks can use tomorrow today and the next day and my mission is also for folks to leave his training and talk about it. Tell a friend, tell a colleague, tell a family member, and feel equipped to be able to engage in these conversations. So when someone is saying or doing something problematic, you have this confidence in the skills to be able to interpret what’s going on there and to be able to talk to them and to be able to address it. The other thing that I do is I couch everything that I do in my trainings in a self care and team care perspective. And I think this is very important. We have to look after our emotions. We have to look after ourselves and we have to look after each other. I always say you could be as anti oppressive as you want but if you haven’t had any lunch… if you haven’t eaten anything… you’re not good.

Sarah Taylor [00:07:57]

You’ve got the hangries!

Tenniel Brown [00:07:59]

Trust me, Anti-Oppressive work requires patience. It requires empathy. It requires compassion and self compassion. You will fall down a lot and I find you know and I talk a lot about cancel culture and don’t get me wrong really that could be its own podcast.

Sarah Taylor [00:08:19]

Totally. Especially in this industry.

Tenniel Brown [00:08:22]

Look we need to talk about this and I get why certain people are being canceled for sure. And yet as someone who does this work I recognize that I’m so thankful I wasn’t canceled because over the years I’ve done and said things before I knew before I took a course like this before I had an opportunity to learn what was problematic about my lens. I’m so thankful that I was able to make those mistakes in a safe environment and actually benefit from that and grow. So people get a safe environment to learn language and understand what is going on, what is oppression, if oppression is so bad why don’t we just stop this. Well I unpack that for folks. Why is this so complicated and why doesn’t this just stop. And then I provide practical skills for folks to be able to apply this to their lives and their communication. I think the other thing that I think folks get is not just sort of a general whatever, you’ll find that I’m really interested in applying it to film editors and what it is that you do on a regular basis and looking at how you can use your platform to be able to actually oppose oppression.

Sarah Taylor [00:09:31]

Yeah well it’s like it’s huge I know for myself we did anti oppression workshop as a board for the CCE. I’m in an interracial marriage and so I thought “Oh I know a lot.” Like I’ve been unpacking this stuff for a while and understanding in my own way. But also like kind of like how do I say it to my white uncle who is racist like how do I approach that. And by taking that one course, like you said I got so much more understanding of where people might come from and the language and I could approach it not by just being angry because anytime I’d hear anything I was like “You’re talking about my husband, you’re talking about my child! This is not OK!” And so it made a huge impact on me and I felt like I kind of knew some stuff but I realized that there was so much more to learn. And I think I’m still learning and it’s opened up even conversations I’ve had with my husband and my in-laws… and so I think people who are in my situation are like “no I’m cool I got I’m married to so-and-so or I have my best friend or whatever.” You grew up in your lens and there’s way more to learn and unpack.

Tenniel Brown [00:10:41]

Absolutely. Absolutely it’s so true. And I always say that absolutely positively nobody gets a pass on this.

Sarah Taylor [00:10:48]

100 percent.

Tenniel Brown [00:10:49]

At all. You know myself as someone who identifies as a black fem queer woman, you know folks would be like well you know you of course you couldn’t oppress. And it’s like yes we are all susceptible to experiencing oppression and we are all oppressors. So I have aspects of my identity that allow me to have privilege. And the thing about this is that if you’re not aware of those things that’s how you harm people that’s how you engage in micro aggressions. You know what I mean? That’s how you you know get striking up a conversation with someone about your latest renovation in your house when this person is still renting and doesn’t even have access. These are the types of things that you’re never protected from. Right. Like you’re not protected from that in a certain way. So it’s really important to remember that.

Sarah Taylor [00:11:40]

Where should someone start if they’re like feeling overwhelmed they’re like wow I know that I need to make this change. I’ve seen all this information now on social media and I’m saying all the wrong things and like you said I’m just going to be quiet which is not the right thing to do. So where do they go and what should they focus on first to just like get into this mindset of making these changes?

Tenniel Brown [00:12:02]

That’s a great question. And what I would say is education. Not a coincidence right? So of course you know joining with you know your organization to offer this to the community because I think that’s step number one. I think we do need to have good information about… you need to educate yourself. I would say that it’s a really important first step to really listen, and I find even when you have more information and you have more training it even improves the way that you can listen because what you find is when you don’t have that knowledge there’s certain things that are sort of prevent you from even being open. So I find the training and the skills and the confidence that you get from doing the course like this allows you to even listen deeper right and understand more and I think that that’s step number one. I think that once… but don’t stay there! Because I think a lot of people oh I’m listening but really it’s just their guilt and shame. So yeah they’re still not doing anything but once you’ve had the chance to listen you now can start thinking more about your platform and I think that’s one of the most important thing for your listeners to know that if it’s like well I’m not a social worker I’m not a therapist what’s this got to do with me it’s like it has everything to do with you. You have a platform as a film editor and it’s important for you to acknowledge that there are big ways and small ways that you can make a difference. And we all have a responsibility. What’s happened in this world since COVID what’s happened in this world since June is we can no longer close our eyes to this. We have to look at this and all the years that we have stayed silent on this has been what’s caused the problem. So the reality is is that we all are called to use our platform to be able to address this to look around the room and be like who isn’t here? To look around your history of the films that you and different projects you’ve been involved in and being like how many of these people, how many of these stories featured stories that were outside of what we usually see? Right. And looking at the ways that you can use your platform and your influence to be able to make a change, so we’re all called to do that I don’t care if you’re a child care worker or a housekeeper do some working at a gas station, it literally doesn’t matter we’re all a part of this human society. We all have some sort of platform and so we all have a responsibility to do something. You know Sarah one of my favorite slogans that’s come out of the protest is “Silence is Violence.” I love that one because I know what happens when people don’t have education and knowledge. They go into a shame cycle they go into a guilt cycle and they go into fear and you know what happens there? Shh. And you know what, that doesn’t help anybody at all. So I recognize that these are difficult things for us to unpack but we all have a responsibility to use whatever platform we have to make a difference. So starting by educating yourself, listening a lot, and then that’s going to help you to be more open to what you can do. And then looking at your platform whether that be personal or professional to make a change.

Sarah Taylor [00:15:20]

That was perfect. Yeah. That’s huge. And even since I took my training and even just since I’ve done my own inner work I noticed like I wouldn’t pick certain shots anymore or there’ll be things in my edit where I’m like “that’s a stereotype” or “No that’s not going to work. We can’t do that we can’t have that.” And so I think if everybody’s doing that then what we’re seeing on screen can start changing.

Tenniel Brown [00:15:45]

Absolutely. Absolutely and there’s these you know there’s there’s big ways and then there’s little ways like you describe. So it’s it is about really curating your lens, right and making sure that you’re seeing more and I think training like this just helps you to really open up your lens. So you’re not just seeing directly what’s in front of you work to the side of you but it’s more of like a panoramic view which you folks really need in the work that you do.

Sarah Taylor [00:16:09]

100 percent. Yeah. Well I hope that our membership joins us. I know we’ve already been getting people RSVPing which is very exciting. On July 27 2020 to learn and to unpack and to take part and just hopefully we can continue to do stuff with you and just keep educating and making the changes we can make.

Tenniel Brown [00:16:28]

Yeah. Join us. Join us. Don’t hesitate folks. Be a part of this. I’m really looking forward to working with everybody. And you know what we’re gonna have fun. I know these topics are really heavy but we’re gonna have some fun and we’re really going to connect with each other as a community so I look forward to meeting everybody at this training.

Sarah Taylor [00:16:46]

Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today and I look forward to seeing you on the 27th and continuing my journey. So thank you for doing this for us and thank you for sharing your knowledge and your experience with the world. So thank you so much.

Tenniel Brown [00:16:59]

You’re so welcome. Thanks for having me.

Sarah Taylor [00:17:03]

Thank you so much for joining us today. And a big thank you goes to Tenniel Brown and a special thanks to Maureen Grant and Jane MacRae. If you’d like to connect with Tenniel, you can find her on Instagram @TennielBrown. If you’d like to bring Tenniel into your organization to learn more about anti oppressive work, you can check out her website at brownconsulting.com. I look forward to learning more from Tenniel on July 27 2020 at the CCE Lunch and Learn I hope to see you there. The CCE has been supporting BIPOC TV and FILM. BIPOC TV and FILM is a grassroots organization and collective of black, indigenous, and people of colour in Canada’s TV and film industry. From writers, directors, producers, and actors, to editors, crew members, and executives. Their members are a mix of emerging, mid-level, and established industry professionals. BIPOC TV and FILM is dedicated to increasing the representation of BIPOC both in front and behind the camera. If you would like to donate to BIPOC TV and FILM please head to their website at bipoctvandfilm.com. The CCE is taking steps to build a more equitable ecosystem within our industry and we encourage our members to participate in any way they can. 

The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall. Additional ADR recording by Andrea Rusch. Original music provided by Chad Blain. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends to tune in. Til next time I’m your host Sarah Taylor.

Outtro

The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member please visit our website www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

Subscribe Wherever You Get Your Podcasts

What do you want to hear on The Editors Cut?

Please send along any topics you would like us to cover or editors you would love to hear from:

Credits

A special thanks goes to

Kimberlee McTaggart, CCE

Alison Dowler

Hosted and Produced by

Sarah Taylor

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Original Music by

Chad Blain

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Categories
The Editors Cut

Episode 84 – Only Murders in the Building with Peggy Tachdjian, ACE

The Editor's Cut: Episode 084

Episode 084 - Only Murders in the Building with Peggy Tachdjian, ACE

In this conversation, editor Peggy Tachdjian, ACE discusses her career journey and her work on the show 'Only Murders in the Building.'

She shares her experience transitioning from documentaries and reality TV to scripted television, as well as the challenges and joys of working on different types of shows. Peggy also talks about the collaborative process with other editors on ‘Only Murders in the Building’ and the importance of creating emotional connections with the characters.

PEGGY TACHDJIAN, ACE

PEGGY TACHDJIAN, ACE, is an Emmy award winning film and television editor who was most recently nominated for an Emmy for her work on the Hulu comedy series Only Murders in the Building. Peggy was born in Lebanon and came to America to flee the war when she was 8. She is now based in Los Angeles and has over 20 years of experience editing across multiple formats and genres. She began her career in documentary and unscripted before transitioning to scripted television and film. Some of her recent credits include Shrinking on Apple+, FX’s acclaimed American Horror Story, the Netflix hit Ratched, and the musical feature The Prom starring Meryl Streep. She’s also worked on many much loved reality shows like Project Runway, RuPauls Drag Race, The Kardashians and Born This Way, for which she earned 4 Primetime Emmy nominations for Editing.

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The Editor’s Cut – Episode 030 – “What is Anti-Oppression? With Tenniel Brown”

Sarah Taylor [00:00:01]

Hello and welcome to The Editor’s Cut. I’m your host Sarah Taylor. At the CCE, we began our journey of self education with Anti-Oppression training in 2019. It was invaluable for us as it provided us with tools to assess how we as an organization could set a course of action to root our unconscious and systematic bias in our operations. This training is now a permanent part of our budget so future board members and volunteers can continue this work, and equity can be part of the fabric of our organization. We are offering a Lunch and Learn Introduction To Anti Oppressive Communication with Tenniel Brown on July 27. Today I’m lucky to be able to sit down with Tenniel Brown and discuss what Anti-Oppressive training is and what we can expect from this webinar. Tenniel Brown is a passionate anti-racist anti oppression and mental health speaker dedicated to improving the experiences of marginalized people in all institutional settings. She is the founder of the Centre For Anti-Oppressive Communication which specializes in providing anti oppressive, trauma-informed counseling, clinical supervision and organizational consulting, as well as customized workshops training and team retreats. I’m joined with Tenniel Brown, she is the founder of the Centre For Anti-Oppressive Communication based in Toronto. And we just want to have a little conversation about why anti oppression work is important in this and all days but specifically right now. So can you just tell us a little bit about your background and why you started the Center For Anti-Oppressive Communication.

Tenniel Brown [00:01:41]

My background is as a psychotherapist. So I spent I’ve spent many many years working with individuals and couples and families and groups helping them to access more of their well-being by addressing different mental health issues specifically trauma. One of the things that I specialize in addressing is racialized trauma. But also trauma that comes from folks that have experienced different types of oppression. And I think for most people that are called to this type of work it’s quite personal for me right. So often when you don’t see the work that you know needs to happen in the community taking place you create it. And so that was me. You know I think I saw that there was a need for organizations to have somebody come in and not just talk about diversity inclusion but talk about what happens when certain identities have power and that unbalance of power and how to actually address that in our communication. I knew that out in the community there were therapists and social workers that were wanting to do better work. You know work in the best practice way with clients that are black, racialized, queer, and trans, and had nowhere to go to get supervision and support. And finally I knew personally that there were so many folks that when they were ready to do therapy work they needed to see someone sitting across the office that looked like them or had a very similar lived experience and they just were not going to come unless that was the case. So all these things I knew was happening and nobody was doing it. And I said someone’s got to do something and that was me. I think what needs to come out of what’s happened in June is for folks to see black professionals and black community in in the in sort of like the the brilliance of what we do and it’s not uncommon that in many cases where we don’t see ourselves we create it. So yeah that was the spirit of and I think that when I started the organization I knew that it was important for there to be a place where folks from those different backgrounds could come and get that support and information. So it’s a real passion of mine. It is my baby and it’s so beautiful to see folks wanting this information during this time.

Sarah Taylor [00:04:01]

Yeah so important. Can you tell us what Anti-Oppression means and what someone can expect by taking an anti oppressive workshop?

Tenniel Brown [00:04:10]

Sure absolutely. So when you sort of break down the word anti oppression anti oppressive practice we take a look at that anti part and essentially that that just means opposition to oppression and then the practice part. So AOP… the practice part pertains to the context in which you are practicing opposition to oppression. So you can apply an anti oppressive lens to just about anything. And I’ve had the opportunity to work with organizations like Pride Toronto and work with your curators to apply an anti-oppressive lens to the way they do event organizing. I have applied an anti oppressive lens to the way I do therapy and clinical supervision with other therapists. You can apply an anti oppressive lens to teaching. You can apply it to student advising, you can apply it to just about anything. I’ve been working with fitness professionals looking at applying an anti oppressive lens to the way that they support folks that are on their fitness journey. So so it’s about looking at whatever practice whatever context you are working in and using that platform to be able to oppose oppression and all of its forms. So that’s essentially what it is.

Sarah Taylor [00:05:29]

And so when someone takes courses like anti oppressive communication course or participates in your courses what can they expect to be talking about or learning?

Tenniel Brown [00:05:37]

Absolutely so I think one of the most important things is to sort of pull back a little bit of you know the cover on this because I think anti oppressive language is its own language. It’s like Spanish. And you see so many people getting themselves into some rather serious trouble these days because they actually don’t know the language they don’t understand… in some ways the harm of some of the things that they’re doing and saying the deep harm of that. You get a lot of people who don’t really know how to talk about these issues. And so you go into a shame spiral and you just don’t talk. You just get very quiet and I always argue that you know the silence piece is a part of how we got ourselves into this trouble as a human society in the first place. So what I offer is something for everybody. I think over the years what folks have said to me is is even somebody who’s maybe got a social work background and knows about anti oppressive practice when they come to one of my trainings they find that they are moved further along in their application of that perspective around “OK, well what does this mean when I’m interacting with somebody right here in a one on one context.” Other people that are completely brand new have never had the chance to learn any of this language or understand any of these concepts have said over the years that they felt like they left with a really good sense of what this topic is. But not just that practical skills. I’m all about practical skills. I want to offer things that folks can use tomorrow today and the next day and my mission is also for folks to leave his training and talk about it. Tell a friend, tell a colleague, tell a family member, and feel equipped to be able to engage in these conversations. So when someone is saying or doing something problematic, you have this confidence in the skills to be able to interpret what’s going on there and to be able to talk to them and to be able to address it. The other thing that I do is I couch everything that I do in my trainings in a self care and team care perspective. And I think this is very important. We have to look after our emotions. We have to look after ourselves and we have to look after each other. I always say you could be as anti oppressive as you want but if you haven’t had any lunch… if you haven’t eaten anything… you’re not good.

Sarah Taylor [00:07:57]

You’ve got the hangries!

Tenniel Brown [00:07:59]

Trust me, Anti-Oppressive work requires patience. It requires empathy. It requires compassion and self compassion. You will fall down a lot and I find you know and I talk a lot about cancel culture and don’t get me wrong really that could be its own podcast.

Sarah Taylor [00:08:19]

Totally. Especially in this industry.

Tenniel Brown [00:08:22]

Look we need to talk about this and I get why certain people are being canceled for sure. And yet as someone who does this work I recognize that I’m so thankful I wasn’t canceled because over the years I’ve done and said things before I knew before I took a course like this before I had an opportunity to learn what was problematic about my lens. I’m so thankful that I was able to make those mistakes in a safe environment and actually benefit from that and grow. So people get a safe environment to learn language and understand what is going on, what is oppression, if oppression is so bad why don’t we just stop this. Well I unpack that for folks. Why is this so complicated and why doesn’t this just stop. And then I provide practical skills for folks to be able to apply this to their lives and their communication. I think the other thing that I think folks get is not just sort of a general whatever, you’ll find that I’m really interested in applying it to film editors and what it is that you do on a regular basis and looking at how you can use your platform to be able to actually oppose oppression.

Sarah Taylor [00:09:31]

Yeah well it’s like it’s huge I know for myself we did anti oppression workshop as a board for the CCE. I’m in an interracial marriage and so I thought “Oh I know a lot.” Like I’ve been unpacking this stuff for a while and understanding in my own way. But also like kind of like how do I say it to my white uncle who is racist like how do I approach that. And by taking that one course, like you said I got so much more understanding of where people might come from and the language and I could approach it not by just being angry because anytime I’d hear anything I was like “You’re talking about my husband, you’re talking about my child! This is not OK!” And so it made a huge impact on me and I felt like I kind of knew some stuff but I realized that there was so much more to learn. And I think I’m still learning and it’s opened up even conversations I’ve had with my husband and my in-laws… and so I think people who are in my situation are like “no I’m cool I got I’m married to so-and-so or I have my best friend or whatever.” You grew up in your lens and there’s way more to learn and unpack.

Tenniel Brown [00:10:41]

Absolutely. Absolutely it’s so true. And I always say that absolutely positively nobody gets a pass on this.

Sarah Taylor [00:10:48]

100 percent.

Tenniel Brown [00:10:49]

At all. You know myself as someone who identifies as a black fem queer woman, you know folks would be like well you know you of course you couldn’t oppress. And it’s like yes we are all susceptible to experiencing oppression and we are all oppressors. So I have aspects of my identity that allow me to have privilege. And the thing about this is that if you’re not aware of those things that’s how you harm people that’s how you engage in micro aggressions. You know what I mean? That’s how you you know get striking up a conversation with someone about your latest renovation in your house when this person is still renting and doesn’t even have access. These are the types of things that you’re never protected from. Right. Like you’re not protected from that in a certain way. So it’s really important to remember that.

Sarah Taylor [00:11:40]

Where should someone start if they’re like feeling overwhelmed they’re like wow I know that I need to make this change. I’ve seen all this information now on social media and I’m saying all the wrong things and like you said I’m just going to be quiet which is not the right thing to do. So where do they go and what should they focus on first to just like get into this mindset of making these changes?

Tenniel Brown [00:12:02]

That’s a great question. And what I would say is education. Not a coincidence right? So of course you know joining with you know your organization to offer this to the community because I think that’s step number one. I think we do need to have good information about… you need to educate yourself. I would say that it’s a really important first step to really listen, and I find even when you have more information and you have more training it even improves the way that you can listen because what you find is when you don’t have that knowledge there’s certain things that are sort of prevent you from even being open. So I find the training and the skills and the confidence that you get from doing the course like this allows you to even listen deeper right and understand more and I think that that’s step number one. I think that once… but don’t stay there! Because I think a lot of people oh I’m listening but really it’s just their guilt and shame. So yeah they’re still not doing anything but once you’ve had the chance to listen you now can start thinking more about your platform and I think that’s one of the most important thing for your listeners to know that if it’s like well I’m not a social worker I’m not a therapist what’s this got to do with me it’s like it has everything to do with you. You have a platform as a film editor and it’s important for you to acknowledge that there are big ways and small ways that you can make a difference. And we all have a responsibility. What’s happened in this world since COVID what’s happened in this world since June is we can no longer close our eyes to this. We have to look at this and all the years that we have stayed silent on this has been what’s caused the problem. So the reality is is that we all are called to use our platform to be able to address this to look around the room and be like who isn’t here? To look around your history of the films that you and different projects you’ve been involved in and being like how many of these people, how many of these stories featured stories that were outside of what we usually see? Right. And looking at the ways that you can use your platform and your influence to be able to make a change, so we’re all called to do that I don’t care if you’re a child care worker or a housekeeper do some working at a gas station, it literally doesn’t matter we’re all a part of this human society. We all have some sort of platform and so we all have a responsibility to do something. You know Sarah one of my favorite slogans that’s come out of the protest is “Silence is Violence.” I love that one because I know what happens when people don’t have education and knowledge. They go into a shame cycle they go into a guilt cycle and they go into fear and you know what happens there? Shh. And you know what, that doesn’t help anybody at all. So I recognize that these are difficult things for us to unpack but we all have a responsibility to use whatever platform we have to make a difference. So starting by educating yourself, listening a lot, and then that’s going to help you to be more open to what you can do. And then looking at your platform whether that be personal or professional to make a change.

Sarah Taylor [00:15:20]

That was perfect. Yeah. That’s huge. And even since I took my training and even just since I’ve done my own inner work I noticed like I wouldn’t pick certain shots anymore or there’ll be things in my edit where I’m like “that’s a stereotype” or “No that’s not going to work. We can’t do that we can’t have that.” And so I think if everybody’s doing that then what we’re seeing on screen can start changing.

Tenniel Brown [00:15:45]

Absolutely. Absolutely and there’s these you know there’s there’s big ways and then there’s little ways like you describe. So it’s it is about really curating your lens, right and making sure that you’re seeing more and I think training like this just helps you to really open up your lens. So you’re not just seeing directly what’s in front of you work to the side of you but it’s more of like a panoramic view which you folks really need in the work that you do.

Sarah Taylor [00:16:09]

100 percent. Yeah. Well I hope that our membership joins us. I know we’ve already been getting people RSVPing which is very exciting. On July 27 2020 to learn and to unpack and to take part and just hopefully we can continue to do stuff with you and just keep educating and making the changes we can make.

Tenniel Brown [00:16:28]

Yeah. Join us. Join us. Don’t hesitate folks. Be a part of this. I’m really looking forward to working with everybody. And you know what we’re gonna have fun. I know these topics are really heavy but we’re gonna have some fun and we’re really going to connect with each other as a community so I look forward to meeting everybody at this training.

Sarah Taylor [00:16:46]

Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today and I look forward to seeing you on the 27th and continuing my journey. So thank you for doing this for us and thank you for sharing your knowledge and your experience with the world. So thank you so much.

Tenniel Brown [00:16:59]

You’re so welcome. Thanks for having me.

Sarah Taylor [00:17:03]

Thank you so much for joining us today. And a big thank you goes to Tenniel Brown and a special thanks to Maureen Grant and Jane MacRae. If you’d like to connect with Tenniel, you can find her on Instagram @TennielBrown. If you’d like to bring Tenniel into your organization to learn more about anti oppressive work, you can check out her website at brownconsulting.com. I look forward to learning more from Tenniel on July 27 2020 at the CCE Lunch and Learn I hope to see you there. The CCE has been supporting BIPOC TV and FILM. BIPOC TV and FILM is a grassroots organization and collective of black, indigenous, and people of colour in Canada’s TV and film industry. From writers, directors, producers, and actors, to editors, crew members, and executives. Their members are a mix of emerging, mid-level, and established industry professionals. BIPOC TV and FILM is dedicated to increasing the representation of BIPOC both in front and behind the camera. If you would like to donate to BIPOC TV and FILM please head to their website at bipoctvandfilm.com. The CCE is taking steps to build a more equitable ecosystem within our industry and we encourage our members to participate in any way they can. 

The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall. Additional ADR recording by Andrea Rusch. Original music provided by Chad Blain. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends to tune in. Til next time I’m your host Sarah Taylor.

Outtro

The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member please visit our website www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

Subscribe Wherever You Get Your Podcasts

What do you want to hear on The Editors Cut?

Please send along any topics you would like us to cover or editors you would love to hear from:

Credits

A special thanks goes to

Kimberlee McTaggart, CCE

Alison Dowler

Hosted and Produced by

Sarah Taylor

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Original Music by

Chad Blain

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Sponsored by

Vancouver Short Film Festival

Categories
L'art du montage

Episode 17: Meet Myriam Magassouba

CCE podcast balado MYRIAM MAGASSOUBA LADM EPISODE17

Episode 17: Meet Myriam Magassouba

In this new episode, we are privileged to welcome the multi-talented Myriam Magassouba.

LADM_EPISODE17_MYRIAM MAGASSOUBA_HEADSHOT

Myriam wears many hats: director, screenwriter and, of course, editor. Her short film, WHERE I AM, won over a dozen awards in Canada and abroad. Myriam has edited numerous award-winning films, both fiction and documentary. For example, Rafaël Ouellet’s film FAMILY GAME, which she edited, received eight IRIS nominations, including Best Film, Best Direction and Best Editing. Now that we’ve whetted our appetites, it’s time to delve into Myriam Magassouba’s successful career. Enjoy your listening!

This episode is sponsored by MELS STUDIOS

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Subscribe Wherever You Get Your Podcasts

What do you want to hear on The Editors Cut?

Please send along any topics you would like us to cover or editors you would love to hear from:

Credits

A special thanks goes to

Myriam Magassouba

Catherine Legault

Raphaël Pare

Les Studios MELS

Maud Le Chevallier

Audrey Sylvestre

Axia Films - Armand Lafond

Sphère Films - Olivier Gauthier-Mercier

Host

Catherine Legault

Editing

Pauline Decroix

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall, adapté en version française par Pauline Decroix

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Music offered by

Sponsored by

Categories
The Editors Cut

Episode 082 – In Conversation with Avrïl Jacobson, CCE and Annie Jean, CCE

Episode 82: In Conversation with Avrïl Jacobson, CCE and Annie Jean, CCE

Episode 82 - In Conversation with Avrïl Jacobson, CCE and Annie Jean, CCE

Today’s episode is the panel that took place March 8th, 2023.

It is an in depth conversation with editor Avrïl Jacobson, CCE and Annie Jean, CCE as they discuss their work on crafting powerful documentary films celebrating two bold and visionary indigenous women in Ever Deadly and Mary Two-Axe Early. 

The panel was moderated by Sophie Farkas-Bolla.

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The Editor’s Cut – Episode 030 – “What is Anti-Oppression? With Tenniel Brown”

Sarah Taylor [00:00:01]

Hello and welcome to The Editor’s Cut. I’m your host Sarah Taylor. At the CCE, we began our journey of self education with Anti-Oppression training in 2019. It was invaluable for us as it provided us with tools to assess how we as an organization could set a course of action to root our unconscious and systematic bias in our operations. This training is now a permanent part of our budget so future board members and volunteers can continue this work, and equity can be part of the fabric of our organization. We are offering a Lunch and Learn Introduction To Anti Oppressive Communication with Tenniel Brown on July 27. Today I’m lucky to be able to sit down with Tenniel Brown and discuss what Anti-Oppressive training is and what we can expect from this webinar. Tenniel Brown is a passionate anti-racist anti oppression and mental health speaker dedicated to improving the experiences of marginalized people in all institutional settings. She is the founder of the Centre For Anti-Oppressive Communication which specializes in providing anti oppressive, trauma-informed counseling, clinical supervision and organizational consulting, as well as customized workshops training and team retreats. I’m joined with Tenniel Brown, she is the founder of the Centre For Anti-Oppressive Communication based in Toronto. And we just want to have a little conversation about why anti oppression work is important in this and all days but specifically right now. So can you just tell us a little bit about your background and why you started the Center For Anti-Oppressive Communication.

Tenniel Brown [00:01:41]

My background is as a psychotherapist. So I spent I’ve spent many many years working with individuals and couples and families and groups helping them to access more of their well-being by addressing different mental health issues specifically trauma. One of the things that I specialize in addressing is racialized trauma. But also trauma that comes from folks that have experienced different types of oppression. And I think for most people that are called to this type of work it’s quite personal for me right. So often when you don’t see the work that you know needs to happen in the community taking place you create it. And so that was me. You know I think I saw that there was a need for organizations to have somebody come in and not just talk about diversity inclusion but talk about what happens when certain identities have power and that unbalance of power and how to actually address that in our communication. I knew that out in the community there were therapists and social workers that were wanting to do better work. You know work in the best practice way with clients that are black, racialized, queer, and trans, and had nowhere to go to get supervision and support. And finally I knew personally that there were so many folks that when they were ready to do therapy work they needed to see someone sitting across the office that looked like them or had a very similar lived experience and they just were not going to come unless that was the case. So all these things I knew was happening and nobody was doing it. And I said someone’s got to do something and that was me. I think what needs to come out of what’s happened in June is for folks to see black professionals and black community in in the in sort of like the the brilliance of what we do and it’s not uncommon that in many cases where we don’t see ourselves we create it. So yeah that was the spirit of and I think that when I started the organization I knew that it was important for there to be a place where folks from those different backgrounds could come and get that support and information. So it’s a real passion of mine. It is my baby and it’s so beautiful to see folks wanting this information during this time.

Sarah Taylor [00:04:01]

Yeah so important. Can you tell us what Anti-Oppression means and what someone can expect by taking an anti oppressive workshop?

Tenniel Brown [00:04:10]

Sure absolutely. So when you sort of break down the word anti oppression anti oppressive practice we take a look at that anti part and essentially that that just means opposition to oppression and then the practice part. So AOP… the practice part pertains to the context in which you are practicing opposition to oppression. So you can apply an anti oppressive lens to just about anything. And I’ve had the opportunity to work with organizations like Pride Toronto and work with your curators to apply an anti-oppressive lens to the way they do event organizing. I have applied an anti oppressive lens to the way I do therapy and clinical supervision with other therapists. You can apply an anti oppressive lens to teaching. You can apply it to student advising, you can apply it to just about anything. I’ve been working with fitness professionals looking at applying an anti oppressive lens to the way that they support folks that are on their fitness journey. So so it’s about looking at whatever practice whatever context you are working in and using that platform to be able to oppose oppression and all of its forms. So that’s essentially what it is.

Sarah Taylor [00:05:29]

And so when someone takes courses like anti oppressive communication course or participates in your courses what can they expect to be talking about or learning?

Tenniel Brown [00:05:37]

Absolutely so I think one of the most important things is to sort of pull back a little bit of you know the cover on this because I think anti oppressive language is its own language. It’s like Spanish. And you see so many people getting themselves into some rather serious trouble these days because they actually don’t know the language they don’t understand… in some ways the harm of some of the things that they’re doing and saying the deep harm of that. You get a lot of people who don’t really know how to talk about these issues. And so you go into a shame spiral and you just don’t talk. You just get very quiet and I always argue that you know the silence piece is a part of how we got ourselves into this trouble as a human society in the first place. So what I offer is something for everybody. I think over the years what folks have said to me is is even somebody who’s maybe got a social work background and knows about anti oppressive practice when they come to one of my trainings they find that they are moved further along in their application of that perspective around “OK, well what does this mean when I’m interacting with somebody right here in a one on one context.” Other people that are completely brand new have never had the chance to learn any of this language or understand any of these concepts have said over the years that they felt like they left with a really good sense of what this topic is. But not just that practical skills. I’m all about practical skills. I want to offer things that folks can use tomorrow today and the next day and my mission is also for folks to leave his training and talk about it. Tell a friend, tell a colleague, tell a family member, and feel equipped to be able to engage in these conversations. So when someone is saying or doing something problematic, you have this confidence in the skills to be able to interpret what’s going on there and to be able to talk to them and to be able to address it. The other thing that I do is I couch everything that I do in my trainings in a self care and team care perspective. And I think this is very important. We have to look after our emotions. We have to look after ourselves and we have to look after each other. I always say you could be as anti oppressive as you want but if you haven’t had any lunch… if you haven’t eaten anything… you’re not good.

Sarah Taylor [00:07:57]

You’ve got the hangries!

Tenniel Brown [00:07:59]

Trust me, Anti-Oppressive work requires patience. It requires empathy. It requires compassion and self compassion. You will fall down a lot and I find you know and I talk a lot about cancel culture and don’t get me wrong really that could be its own podcast.

Sarah Taylor [00:08:19]

Totally. Especially in this industry.

Tenniel Brown [00:08:22]

Look we need to talk about this and I get why certain people are being canceled for sure. And yet as someone who does this work I recognize that I’m so thankful I wasn’t canceled because over the years I’ve done and said things before I knew before I took a course like this before I had an opportunity to learn what was problematic about my lens. I’m so thankful that I was able to make those mistakes in a safe environment and actually benefit from that and grow. So people get a safe environment to learn language and understand what is going on, what is oppression, if oppression is so bad why don’t we just stop this. Well I unpack that for folks. Why is this so complicated and why doesn’t this just stop. And then I provide practical skills for folks to be able to apply this to their lives and their communication. I think the other thing that I think folks get is not just sort of a general whatever, you’ll find that I’m really interested in applying it to film editors and what it is that you do on a regular basis and looking at how you can use your platform to be able to actually oppose oppression.

Sarah Taylor [00:09:31]

Yeah well it’s like it’s huge I know for myself we did anti oppression workshop as a board for the CCE. I’m in an interracial marriage and so I thought “Oh I know a lot.” Like I’ve been unpacking this stuff for a while and understanding in my own way. But also like kind of like how do I say it to my white uncle who is racist like how do I approach that. And by taking that one course, like you said I got so much more understanding of where people might come from and the language and I could approach it not by just being angry because anytime I’d hear anything I was like “You’re talking about my husband, you’re talking about my child! This is not OK!” And so it made a huge impact on me and I felt like I kind of knew some stuff but I realized that there was so much more to learn. And I think I’m still learning and it’s opened up even conversations I’ve had with my husband and my in-laws… and so I think people who are in my situation are like “no I’m cool I got I’m married to so-and-so or I have my best friend or whatever.” You grew up in your lens and there’s way more to learn and unpack.

Tenniel Brown [00:10:41]

Absolutely. Absolutely it’s so true. And I always say that absolutely positively nobody gets a pass on this.

Sarah Taylor [00:10:48]

100 percent.

Tenniel Brown [00:10:49]

At all. You know myself as someone who identifies as a black fem queer woman, you know folks would be like well you know you of course you couldn’t oppress. And it’s like yes we are all susceptible to experiencing oppression and we are all oppressors. So I have aspects of my identity that allow me to have privilege. And the thing about this is that if you’re not aware of those things that’s how you harm people that’s how you engage in micro aggressions. You know what I mean? That’s how you you know get striking up a conversation with someone about your latest renovation in your house when this person is still renting and doesn’t even have access. These are the types of things that you’re never protected from. Right. Like you’re not protected from that in a certain way. So it’s really important to remember that.

Sarah Taylor [00:11:40]

Where should someone start if they’re like feeling overwhelmed they’re like wow I know that I need to make this change. I’ve seen all this information now on social media and I’m saying all the wrong things and like you said I’m just going to be quiet which is not the right thing to do. So where do they go and what should they focus on first to just like get into this mindset of making these changes?

Tenniel Brown [00:12:02]

That’s a great question. And what I would say is education. Not a coincidence right? So of course you know joining with you know your organization to offer this to the community because I think that’s step number one. I think we do need to have good information about… you need to educate yourself. I would say that it’s a really important first step to really listen, and I find even when you have more information and you have more training it even improves the way that you can listen because what you find is when you don’t have that knowledge there’s certain things that are sort of prevent you from even being open. So I find the training and the skills and the confidence that you get from doing the course like this allows you to even listen deeper right and understand more and I think that that’s step number one. I think that once… but don’t stay there! Because I think a lot of people oh I’m listening but really it’s just their guilt and shame. So yeah they’re still not doing anything but once you’ve had the chance to listen you now can start thinking more about your platform and I think that’s one of the most important thing for your listeners to know that if it’s like well I’m not a social worker I’m not a therapist what’s this got to do with me it’s like it has everything to do with you. You have a platform as a film editor and it’s important for you to acknowledge that there are big ways and small ways that you can make a difference. And we all have a responsibility. What’s happened in this world since COVID what’s happened in this world since June is we can no longer close our eyes to this. We have to look at this and all the years that we have stayed silent on this has been what’s caused the problem. So the reality is is that we all are called to use our platform to be able to address this to look around the room and be like who isn’t here? To look around your history of the films that you and different projects you’ve been involved in and being like how many of these people, how many of these stories featured stories that were outside of what we usually see? Right. And looking at the ways that you can use your platform and your influence to be able to make a change, so we’re all called to do that I don’t care if you’re a child care worker or a housekeeper do some working at a gas station, it literally doesn’t matter we’re all a part of this human society. We all have some sort of platform and so we all have a responsibility to do something. You know Sarah one of my favorite slogans that’s come out of the protest is “Silence is Violence.” I love that one because I know what happens when people don’t have education and knowledge. They go into a shame cycle they go into a guilt cycle and they go into fear and you know what happens there? Shh. And you know what, that doesn’t help anybody at all. So I recognize that these are difficult things for us to unpack but we all have a responsibility to use whatever platform we have to make a difference. So starting by educating yourself, listening a lot, and then that’s going to help you to be more open to what you can do. And then looking at your platform whether that be personal or professional to make a change.

Sarah Taylor [00:15:20]

That was perfect. Yeah. That’s huge. And even since I took my training and even just since I’ve done my own inner work I noticed like I wouldn’t pick certain shots anymore or there’ll be things in my edit where I’m like “that’s a stereotype” or “No that’s not going to work. We can’t do that we can’t have that.” And so I think if everybody’s doing that then what we’re seeing on screen can start changing.

Tenniel Brown [00:15:45]

Absolutely. Absolutely and there’s these you know there’s there’s big ways and then there’s little ways like you describe. So it’s it is about really curating your lens, right and making sure that you’re seeing more and I think training like this just helps you to really open up your lens. So you’re not just seeing directly what’s in front of you work to the side of you but it’s more of like a panoramic view which you folks really need in the work that you do.

Sarah Taylor [00:16:09]

100 percent. Yeah. Well I hope that our membership joins us. I know we’ve already been getting people RSVPing which is very exciting. On July 27 2020 to learn and to unpack and to take part and just hopefully we can continue to do stuff with you and just keep educating and making the changes we can make.

Tenniel Brown [00:16:28]

Yeah. Join us. Join us. Don’t hesitate folks. Be a part of this. I’m really looking forward to working with everybody. And you know what we’re gonna have fun. I know these topics are really heavy but we’re gonna have some fun and we’re really going to connect with each other as a community so I look forward to meeting everybody at this training.

Sarah Taylor [00:16:46]

Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today and I look forward to seeing you on the 27th and continuing my journey. So thank you for doing this for us and thank you for sharing your knowledge and your experience with the world. So thank you so much.

Tenniel Brown [00:16:59]

You’re so welcome. Thanks for having me.

Sarah Taylor [00:17:03]

Thank you so much for joining us today. And a big thank you goes to Tenniel Brown and a special thanks to Maureen Grant and Jane MacRae. If you’d like to connect with Tenniel, you can find her on Instagram @TennielBrown. If you’d like to bring Tenniel into your organization to learn more about anti oppressive work, you can check out her website at brownconsulting.com. I look forward to learning more from Tenniel on July 27 2020 at the CCE Lunch and Learn I hope to see you there. The CCE has been supporting BIPOC TV and FILM. BIPOC TV and FILM is a grassroots organization and collective of black, indigenous, and people of colour in Canada’s TV and film industry. From writers, directors, producers, and actors, to editors, crew members, and executives. Their members are a mix of emerging, mid-level, and established industry professionals. BIPOC TV and FILM is dedicated to increasing the representation of BIPOC both in front and behind the camera. If you would like to donate to BIPOC TV and FILM please head to their website at bipoctvandfilm.com. The CCE is taking steps to build a more equitable ecosystem within our industry and we encourage our members to participate in any way they can. 

The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall. Additional ADR recording by Andrea Rusch. Original music provided by Chad Blain. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends to tune in. Til next time I’m your host Sarah Taylor.

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The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member please visit our website www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

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A special thanks goes to

Kimberlee McTaggart, CCE

Alison Dowler

Hosted and Produced by

Sarah Taylor

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Jane Tattersall

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Andrea Rusch

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Original Music by

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The Editors Cut

Episode 081 – Joy Ride with Nena Erb, ACE

Episode 081 - Joy Ride with Nena Erb, ACE

In today’s episode Nena Erb, ACE joins Sarah Taylor to chat about her editing work on the hilarious film JOY RIDE.

From first-time director Adele Lim (screenwriter of Raya and the Last Dragon, Crazy Rich Asians), JOY RIDE follows four Asian-American friends on a trip across Asia in search of one of their birth mothers, who end up on the journey of a lifetime.

You can check out the trailer here.

The film stars Oscar nominee Stephanie Hsu, Critics Choice Award nominee Ashley Park, Sherry Cola, and Sabrina Wu. The film premiered at SXSW in 2023 to critical acclaim, now boasting a perfect score of 100% on Rotten Tomatoes.

NenaErbACE2021

Nena Erb, ACE, is a picture editor based in Los Angeles. Raised in an Asian immigrant family, Nena’s father wanted her to be a doctor and her mother wanted her to be a pianist with the LA Philharmonic. Nena wanted to be Andy Warhol.

Armed with an art degree, a friend brought her into the industry and she started working in various capacities in production. It was her stint as an associate producer that opened her eyes to the impact of editing. It combined her love of photography and storytelling into one and she was hooked. Since then, Nena has edited projects for Warner Brothers, Apple, HBO, and others.

In 2016, she received an Emmy award on HBO’s documentary series PROJECT GREENLIGHT. In addition, she has received three ACE Eddie nominations; two for her work on HBO’s comedy-drama series INSECURE and the third for CW’s acclaimed series CRAZY EX-GIRLFRIEND. Nena received her second Emmy award in 2020 for her work on season 4 of INSECURE and a third Emmy nomination in 2022 for the final season. She recently finished JOY RIDE directed by Adele Lim for Lionsgate. Her parents no longer ask if she’d reconsider medical school.

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The Editor’s Cut – Episode 081 – Joy Ride with Nena Erb, ACE​

Nena Erb, ACE:

It is important to see yourself represented and to see women that are so like braved, they’re not afraid to be themselves. It was a good project for me. It kind of like gave me permission to speak my mind more. I have a tendency to like think something, and then, I count to 10. And by then, it’s like, who cares? So I don’t even say it, but now, I’m like, “No, I’m not gonna count to 10. I’m just going to say it.”

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Oh, I love that. Yeah, we should all just say what we need to say. This is great. Hello and welcome to The Editor’s Cut. I’m your host, Sarah Taylor. We would like to point out that the lands on which we have created this podcast and that many of you may be listening to us from are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we are on ancestral territory, that has long served as a place where Indigenous peoples have lived, met, and interacted. We honor, respect, and recognize these nations that have never relinquished their rights or sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many contributions, and the concerns that impact Indigenous individuals and communities. Land acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.

Today, I bring to you an interview with past guest, Nena Erb, ACE. We sit down and chat all things Joy Ride. If you haven’t had a chance to watch this film, please do check it out. It is hilarious and also very heartwarming. For those who don’t know Nena, in 2016, she received an Emmy Award for HBO’s documentary series, Project Greenlight. In addition, she has received three ACE Eddie nominations, two for her work on the HBO Comedy Series, Insecure, and the third for the CWS acclaim series, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. Nena received her second Emmy award in 2021 for her work on season four of Insecure and a third Emmy nomination in 2022 for the final season. Nena’s parents no longer ask her if she should reconsider medical school. Without further ado, here is Nena.

Speaker 3:

And action.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

This is The Editor’s Cut.

Speaker 4:

A CCE podcast.

Speaker 5:

Exploring.

Speaker 6:

Exploring.

Speaker 7:

Exploring the art.

Speaker 4:

Of picture editing.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Welcome back to The Editor’s Cut, Nena.

Nena Erb, ACE:

So good to be here. Thank you for having me again.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

I’m so glad to chat more about what you’ve been up to over the last, I think we decided, three years like, Oh, it’s very exciting.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah. Yeah, it’s been a while.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

So just to catch the listeners up, for the people that maybe haven’t listened to your previous episode, can you just give us a bit of a Cole’s Notes on how you made your way to Hollywood?

Nena Erb, ACE:

I have an art degree. I did not go to film school. And afterwards, of course, what do you do with that, right? So my friend’s like, “Hey, come work with me in the art department.” And that’s kind of how I got into the business. You know… And I jumped around a lot, did a lot of different positions, until I finally found editing. And once I discovered what editing was, it just completely, the whole world just opened up. And I… yeah, was like I felt like I had come home in a way.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

I feel that. So how long has it been now since you’ve started editing?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Oh my gosh. I was thinking about that. 20.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

I’m with you. I’m 20 as well, so yeah. That’s awesome.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah, I’m like, wow, time flew.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

It really does, doesn’t it? When you’re doing something that you love, it just flies by. Yeah.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

So today, I wanted to talk to you about the wonderful film, Joy Ride, which it got me in stitches, and I cried. And there’s oh, it was so wonderful. You did a wonderful job. I want to know, how did you get involved with Joy Ride? And what were your first impressions when you were given the script?

Nena Erb, ACE:

I was on my last season of Insecure, and you know, as always, when you’re coming to an end of a project, you’re like, “Okay, let’s see what else is out there.” And my agents brought me several different projects, and I kind of was looking at all of them. And I said no to many, and Joy Ride was one that I said no to, not knowing anything about the script or anything about the filmmakers. It was just like, “Eh, no, it’s comedy. Move on.” Because I wanted to do drama, right? That was my goal. “Let’s do a drama. It’s been several years, so I need to do a drama.” And so, um and so the whole, you know, I just said no to a bunch of stuff. And after a while, they came back, and they’re like, “You know, I think the producers really want you to just read the script. No pressure. Just read it.” I was like, “All right. I am reading other scripts, so I’ll read this one too.”

And yeah, I remember I was on the Sony lot. I was reading the script and taking a little break and waiting for, I think I was waiting to go back for notes or something. And I’m reading it and I’m laughing, and of course, if you’re walking by, and you don’t know what’s happening, you must think, you know, I’m losing my mind. I’m just laughing, um, like loudly. And then, it came to the end, and I was sobbing and crying uncontrollably. And I’m sure, again, people were probably like, “Oh, that’s an overreaction from someone messing up your coffee or something.” But, yeah, it grabbed me. It just resonated so deeply with me for so many reasons.

And I ran back into my edit bay, and I was like, “All right, let’s take a… I need a meeting. I need to meet these people.” Because it was the dirtiest but funniest script I’ve ever read. And then, just the way it hits you at the end, I was not expecting that. And plus, I’m also very good at compartmentalizing, when I’m watching dailies, to really be objective. So I did not expect for that to grab me the way it did and to make me that emotional, so.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Amazing. From reading the script initially to the final film, were there any major changes that happened in the script?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah. Yeah, there were. You know, my first cut was two and a half hours long. Because there’s ,you know, a lot of improv, and a lot of jokes, and jokes that led into other jokes. And so, I just wanted to put everything in there, so we can have a version where the words are on their feet, right? And so, that’s what I had. And then, after working with the director and the producers, you know, we very dramatically started cutting things out. And, and as expected, because no comedy would be two and a half hours long. So yeah, some of the change scenes that we lost were a scene between Lolo and Kat, scene between Lolo and Baron, you know, where he’s kind of letting her know that she’s, she has to be the calm one.

Like she’s usually the one that’s like very chaotic, and so, she needs to kind of find her inner peace and do something that makes her happy versus, you know, makes Audrey happy. And the other scene with Kat was when they’re both sharing their saki or soju and kind of realizing through their conversations that they’re more similar than not, right? And so, it was kind of like their bonding scene, the way that Deadeye and Audrey had their bonding scene were poker. So those were some of the scenes that we lost. But I had say the biggest difference is the slapping game, at the gay bar.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yes.

Nena Erb, ACE:

It was much, much longer. It was like we had seen the two guys that started, they go through their game, and then, you know, Kat and Lolo come up and they’re eyeing each other. And the first time they do their toss out their numbers, I don’t even know what you call that, but yeah, so it was a tie. And so, they both had to slap each other. So they did that, and then they do it again, it was another tie, so they had to slap each other again, and then, again. And then, finally, Kat wins, and then, she just you know, kind of socks it to her, one really, really good punch.

And that was a version that was in the script. You know, we had tried that. We have that definitely. And then, we tried it with much more of their improv, because they, they really went at it. They went off the improv script. They did the improv jokes that the writers wrote, and then, they just kept going. And they were goading each other on. It was hilarious, but too long. And so you know, we’re trying to find what’s funniest and what feels the best pacing wise. And so, we’ve gone through a lot of different iterations of that scene. And um, finally, towards the end, I remember just thinking, “What if they just beat the crap out of each other? What if there’s no dialogue, no tie, they just get in there and then, they start hitting each other?” And they’re like, “Well, if you can make that happen.” And of course, after I say it, I’m like, “Oh, can I make that happen? Do I have what it takes? Haha in the material, in the dailies, to make this happen?”

Um and it was a challenge. I was kind of kicking myself, I’ll be honest, after you know, after I was trying it, because they never shot it where it was a ton of different hits to each other. So I had the ones that I had, and you know, there weren’t that many takes. It was a very complicated scene at the club. So yeah, I had a lack of options. I didn’t have a lot of options to work with, in terms of variations of them slapping each other. So a lot of it was cheated by either removing frames or adding frames and sound design to make it seem like it escalated to the final like punch. You know so yeah, so that was definitely very different, and I’m relieved that I was able to carry it off. And next time, I will think twice before offering a suggestion. Hahaha…

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

That’s a good tip for editors out there listening. But sometimes, we challenge ourselves in the best way, because it makes like a really great scene. And that scene was fantastic. It made me laugh so hard. You mentioned improv a few times in your last statement, so you got to work with so many hilarious actresses and actors. I could tell that there was gonna be, you dealt with a lot of improv. So how did you like you did your first cut, you put everything in, but how did you maybe decide, in the end, what jokes could stay? How did you, you know, maybe try to end a joke of their improv before? Cause you know they always just keep going, keep going. I’ve dealt with that too. So how did you handle the improv?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Oh, yeah. There were definitely a lot of improvs that just kept rolling. You know they build off the improv, off the improv, and then, they keep building. Um and you know, most of the time, I just go with my gut. It sounds simply oversimplified, but it’s really how… Yeah, it’s what I trust. I trust my gut. If it’s making me laugh, great. If I feel like it’s going on too long, I’ll just find a good place to cut. Point gray are geniuses. I mean they’re so, like well-versed in comedy. And the way that they shot this improv, I honestly you know, I’ve worked on a lot of comedies, they shoot improv all kinds of different ways, but they had it so planned out that all the improv was in their singles. And it was just genius. It was so smart, because you can make it work easily, you know, rather than if it’s on a two shot or slide and you know.

And every once in a while, there’s a you know over the shoulder, and that’s fine. I figured out ways to get around that for continuity. But… yeah, so they did it that way. They cross shot, so it’s not like, “Okay, we’re on one side. You do your improv line. Then we turn around for the reaction.” The reactions are in the moment, and it was just so, so great um. So they made it very easy to try different jokes. At the end of the day, I rank my jokes. If it made me laugh really hard, then it’s a five or a six. If it didn’t make me laugh that hard, it’s like a one or two. And then, sometimes, if it was like, didn’t even make the chart, I just put okay, hahaha, in the locator notes.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

I love it. That’s great. Yeah.

Nena Erb, ACE:

So yeah, I had a way of tracking it. I had a way of making up a lot of different versions. So for each scene that had improvs, there was probably like, 10 more versions, each version with different improvs and different combinations of improvs.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

So would you like then you’d cut the scene that was scripted, and then, you would do, say, 10 different versions of that same scene, so you could drop it into the cut if you needed to see? Is that kind of how you…

Nena Erb, ACE:

Kind of, kind of. Yeah, I would have the version that I like best, and then, I would kind of subclip you know the joke out, but a little padding on either side. And basically, what I would do then is like, okay, I would swap out another joke, and sometimes, you have to you know, change the going in and the entrance, and the exit to make it work, because people are suddenly in different positions, whatnot. Um so yeah, I had a lot of different versions of that. I realized, in the beginning, I was cutting and thinking like, “Oh my gosh, I’m moving so slow. I can’t believe I’m like, only getting through like X number of scenes.” Then I realized, “Wait a minute, I’ve actually cut like 45 minutes of content, because of all the different improvs, so I’m not actually moving that slow.”

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah that’s, that’s the most, I feel like that’s the most challenging part with comedy when you have actors that are hope that are good at improv. Um and yeah, I did a I did a feature recently, and our first cut was two and a half hours as well. And it was just like, “What jokes do we cut?” But on that note, I know that there’s a few jokes in this film I recently cut was called Hey, Victor and um, that still make me laugh today. So are there ones that just still hit you like they did when you first heard them?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Oh my gosh, there are so many different ones. I may have to think about this.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

I sprung it on you.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah, we’ll have to come back.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Who was the team that worked with you with end post? Did you have some assistance? And what was your day-to-day process like?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah. Yeah. I was fortunate and I had a whole team, first assistant, second assistant, and a PA. And I got really lucky. I found some really great people that really knew what they were doing, and it was a good team. It was a good team, and it was all female, which is great. And then, of course, if I needed like a male ADR, I would make sure they went around the building to see who was available and willing to do our temp ADR. And fortunately, we were at Pivotal Post and EPS, and there were other people around, so it was never a problem. But yeah, they were great. A lot of them were new to me, because I think the last time we talked, I was on Insecure, and my assistant, who received the Emmy along with me, she’s now editing. So I’m very, very excited for her, and so you know.

And so, obviously, I was like, “You go do your editing, I’ll find a different team.” and um so yeah so this was a whole new team to me. And learning everyone’s preferences and how they work was very fascinating. In the beginning, I would talk to them and see, “Okay, what are you really into?” And I found out that Tori, my first, was really into sound design.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Hmm great perfect

Nena Erb, ACE:

So I know, okay, the hard sound design, give it to her. I actually gave her all the sound design, and then, I found out that our second, Melissa Khan, was great at After Effects and TempVFX. So she got all that, and then, we had a little hiatus. I don’t know if you heard about that, but we had a hiatus and then came back for additional photography. And at that point, Melissa had already been got a job on another movie, so she couldn’t come back. So I had to find a new second. And we hired Joya Caruso. Fortunately, she was also good at VFX, so it was like, somehow, I came up with the perfect team.

Because editors care about sound design tremendously, but we don’t have the time to really dig into it. And I also try my best to have good TempVFX, but again, I can’t do a lot of it in the Avid. So it’s nice when I have an assistant that knows how to use After Effects or Photoshop or whatever other tools they have to make these temps happen. So yeah, so it was a good team. I got really lucky.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Sounds like a dream team. I love it. That’s great. You mentioned you took a break, and so, and so how much of like, were you I’m assuming you were cutting as they were filming, you took a break and came back and started cutting as they were filming again?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

How long after photography did you have to get to your like editor’s cut and stuff like that?

Nena Erb, ACE:

We started September 21st in 2021, and then, we took our hiatus like April 8th, I think it was that week. We had gotten the film to the second preview, and then, realized, “Okay, we need X, Y and Z to kind of you know to take the film into the direction that we want it to go in.” And so, the original idea was like, “Oh, I wish to do like a short six week break.” But then, of course, as you know, Ashley and Stephanie, Sherry, they’re all very, very busy. They’re busy actors. And Sabrina was touring, doing her standup.

So we had to, for schedule-wise, push it back a little bit, and then, we reconvened in November of 2022. And then, locked picture, I want to say like mid-January, mid-January, yeah. Yeah. Because we had another a third preview. And so, it was a lot, but additional photography, it was only for like, a handful of scenes. It wasn’t a lot. So I only got one day, after last day of dailies to get my editor’s cut together, because a lot of bulk of the film was not changed. So just the new material. So we had to get it together very quickly. And then, it was watching it down from the beginning to make sure that, “With the reshoots, are we repeating ourselves in the beginning? Or is something else not making sense now?” So it was a fascinating process.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

So you did three previews. So from those previews, what kind of stuff did you take into consideration in the edit?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Most of it was always for clarity. I think a lot of the issues that we deal with, it doesn’t matter what movie, usually, what we learn from previews is that, you know, the filmmakers, myself included, might’ve been a little too close to material. And so, there are things that we may have lost, that need to go back in, you know, to kinda really flesh out the setup or for clarity purposes. And, and sometimes, you know, you notice, I’m sure you’ve experienced this as an editor yourself, you see like, the smallest little nuance in the performance, and you know the difference, but is that coming across as clearly to the audience, right?

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah, so that’s always a question that we end up answering a lot.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

What would you say was the most challenging scene to cut?

Nena Erb, ACE:

All the set pieces, all of them. No, the one on the train with the drugs.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

That was so good.

Nena Erb, ACE:

And the one with all the…our main four with the basketball players at the hotel, that big long, yeah, I don’t even know what you call that, the orgy? But that’s not really an orgy for everybody. So yeah, it’s not really the right word for it.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah, they’re all individual moments, sexual moments. I don’t know what you’d call it.

Nena Erb, ACE:

So yeah, so those two were probably the hardest and not for any reason other than you have to make them funny. And for the drug scene, what I realized was, you know, my first cut, just following the script, not even adding any extras, it was too long. It was like two minutes, um and we had to cut down. And that was down to a minute, and it still just didn’t feel quite right. And then, finally, we’re like, “Why don’t we speed it up?” I was like, “Oh, that sounds kind of cheesy, but why don’t we all try.” So yeah, I added some speed ramps to the images, and that kind of made it funnier, in a very you know, childish kind of way, which I’m all for.

And and that was really helpful too, because as I’m cutting down, I’m realizing I’m making the shots shorter and shorter, and so, sometimes so short that you don’t really get the full action of what they’re doing. And so, that tends to kind of like make it a little more murky and unclear what’s happening. So using the speed ramps, you can see the full motion of you know, someone snorting coke or putting coke up someone else’s behind.  So there were definitely funnier shots too that we had to lose, because it didn’t help tell the story. They were just funny little asides.

Once we had a decent cut, the challenge was finding music. We went through so many different songs. It got to a point where I think… Toko Nagata is our music supervisor. I was like, “Toko, you have to be patient with me. We’re going to go through a hundred songs with just this one thing, so so you know just bear with me.” And she was great about… She’s such a good sport, just always finding stuff. We tried classical, like Blue Danube, and then, we’ve tried instrumental, we try we had the composer, Nathan Michael David, compose some stuff to one of the earlier cuts. And it was like, “Well, that’s not quite the right vibe, because we’re looking for something super frantic, but funny.” And then, ideally, it’s not just a driving beat, it has to have accents for certain moments, when Sabrina’s putting something up Kat’s butt.

So … yeah, it was a lot of experimentation. And finally, Toko said, “Try this one. It’s a little quirky and a little off kilter, but maybe it’ll work.” It’s Burnt Rice by Shawn Wasabi. And it was perfect. It was completely off kilter, not what you expect to go with that scene. And yet, somehow it worked, and it had these great accents and stops and starts, that just like really helped elevate that piece for me.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah, so when you finally found the song that fit, did you then go in and cut to those moments in the song? Or did you manipulate the song to work with what you had already cut?

Nena Erb, ACE:

I made the song to work with whatever we cut, yeah and that was always fun.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

You’re like, “And I’ll move this here and I’ll move that here.” Yeah, that’s awesome.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And what was great was that we had a music editor too. We have two music editors, Jeff and Emily Kwong, and they were great. They’re such good sports. I would kick them stuff all the time and say, “Can you turn this around like ASAP?” And they would do it.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

I’ve never worked with a music editor, so I’m curious, and maybe other people would want to know too, so would you do your like rough cut of the track to fit what you needed? So if maybe it would needed to be 30 seconds, and this one thing had to happen at the 15 second work, you do your rough cut of it and then, ship it to them, and then, they would make it musically sound amazing?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes and no. For my editor’s cut, they hadn’t come on yet, so I did all my temp. And then, once we started doing notes and if we wanted to switch out songs, you know because once you’re in notes, you don’t have time to stop down for music editing, because it’s very time consuming trying to make certain things fit where you want it to fit versus where musically it wants to be. So that’s usually when I would send them that scene and say, “Hey, we want to try these five different songs. Can you just make it work?”

And so, they would kind of like listen to the songs and pick the right parts, and that was what I loved about them. And I think a lot of music editors are the same way. They don’t think that music is just laying down a track. I think they all listen to the whole thing and pick the right parts of the lyrics, pick the right parts of you know the chorus, the verse, and kind of put it together in their own little recipe, very similar to the way an editor would. So I just really appreciated how they work, because that’s what they did. 

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah, that sounds amazing. I might have to get myself a music editor on my next show. Anyway, what was the most enjoyable scene to cut?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Honestly, I enjoy the entire thing, but I think there’s one scene that was super, super special to me. And it’s a very simple scene, just um Audrey getting dressed the next morning, Lolo’s putting on her you know makeup and earrings and whatnot. They’re getting ready to go to the adoption agency. So it’s just a conversation, simple, innocuous conversation between the two of them, where Audrey kind of like bears her soul and talks about what it was like to be adopted. And she kind of wonders if her life would’ve been different had she not been.

And…and it really resonated with me, because my mom was adopted. And so, I remember having a lot of different conversations with her about like you know you know, “Do you know why you were given up?” And she was always wondering herself, too. And what that means, what being adopted means. You’re the outsider kind of in your family, that basically chose you. So it’s a whole, it’s a lot to unpack, right? Yeah. So the whole thing, belonging, identity, all of that, that was stuff that I talked to my mom about quite extensively. So when I saw that scene, I was like, “Oh, I’m going to really enjoy cutting this.” And I did.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

And I think that’s why Joy Ride also resonates with a lot of people out there. There’s not a lot of stories representing this … this idea of growing up in America and then going to “where you’re from,” and that whole thing. And then, yeah, discovering this whole other side of you that… And we don’t get to see people unpack that on screen, and I think that’s… it’s so important. Yeah, I think Joy Ride did a good job at that.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. At South by Southwest, I expected people to laugh, and kind of sniffle at the emotional parts. What I didn’t expect was, during the Q&A, many adoptees came up and they just were very emotional about the whole thing, seeing their story unfold the way that it did. And and it was so touching you know. One of the adoptees, what she was talking about was so heartfelt that she came up to the stage, and Ashley part gave her a hug. And they had exchanged some words. No one knows what was said, but it was just such a sweet moment. I think everybody was crying.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

This is, and those are the moments where you’re like, “This is why we make 10 versions of a scene. This is why we do what we do, right?”

Nena Erb, ACE:

Exactly.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Oh, that’s really great to hear that you got to see that feedback in real like in action and oh, that’s beautiful. Love it. I love it.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Made it all worth it. 

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Totally. Yeah. You have done a lot of TV, from what I have seen and what we talked about before. So was this one of your first major films? Or had you done like feature film work before?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah, but they’re mostly um smaller independents. This was probably my first studio feature. So there are different things to learn about the studio system versus independence, where you’re just kind of making it up as you go along in the studio to give notes.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yes. So what was the biggest change in your workflow that you had to do, maybe coming from the TV world to the feature world?

Nena Erb, ACE:

It’s very interesting. it’s um you know I think, from the outside looking in, you would think that features have all the time in the world, right. I think, um in television, if you’re doing a half hour, you have two days after last day of dailies. If you’re doing a one hour, you have four days, ideally three to four days after last day of dailies, to get your editor’s cut together. Um well, as you know, my first cut was two and a half hours, and I only had four days after last day of dailies to get that together, to really polish the entire everything and score the entire thing. So yeah, in that sense, I had less time than I would if I was on a TV show um, but in the grand scheme of things, you have more time after that to experiment, because you have 10 weeks with a director. On TV, you have two to four days, if you’re lucky, you know um, and then, you have maybe two weeks with a producer who’s a showrunner on TV shows.

And um this time, it was like, I think the producers came in around week six. Or no, they came in pretty early. They came in at week five of director’s cut, because our director just felt like she was ready to show it. And so, yeah, they came in, and so, they had quite a bit of time um, normally, I’m not really sure if there’s a standard, in terms of like how many weeks producers get, but yeah, they came in at week five during a director’s cut. And then, just kind of, from there to the end, they were very, very involved and a part of the collaborative process, so they had a lot of time versus TV.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Totally. So you still have to go quick at the beginning, and then, you get to have time to really massage your notes and go do all that stuff after the fact.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah, and you get a lot of time to experiment like, “What would happen if we just take out this complete storyline? you know Yeah, what would happen if we lost this entire scene?” you know And then, previews would be the biggest difference between the two. Films, you preview. In TV, you don’t really do that.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

No, no. You mentioned that you came to Canada to do the sound mix, and so, how has that experience like? Often in TV, do you have the time in TV to go and actually do a sound mix? Is that usually afforded?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Okay. So what was the difference coming to Canada to be part of… Well, not that it matters that it’s Canada, but I like that it’s Canada. What was your time like?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Oh, I love that it was in Vancouver. It’s the first time I’ve ever been there, and um you know the city is great. There’s so much good food. And then, the weather was pretty, it was cold, but it wasn’t wasn’t like blizzard cold. We only had a snowstorm for a few days that I was there. It was very easy to get around. People were so nice. It was bizarre. It was like, coming from LA, you’re just used to people honking and driving crazy on the road. And over there, I think I was there with Tori, my first, and after the first few days, I looked at her, we’re at dinner, I’m like, “Am I imagining this or no one honks here? Have you heard of anyone honk?” And she’s like, “No, I haven’t.” I was like, “Okay, okay, so no one’s honking.” So I think, at the last week we were there, I heard one person honk.

I was very excited. But that’s just my observation of Vancouver. But the sound mix itself, I usually try to make time for it on TV shows, but oftentimes, you’re doing dailies, so then, that just means your days are longer, if you want to go do your sound mix. For Joy Ride, it was such a luxury to have three weeks to work on your mix. you know and you’re there for ADR, you’re there for a large amount of time, and it’s nice. It’s nice to be able to have that time and not feel rushed like, and feel like you may miss something afterwards. Because if you did, that’s okay. We’ll be back next week to do it again.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Wow, that’s such a novel experience for me. I don’t know if it’s just a Canada thing or an Alberta thing, but I’ve been to only one sound mix in my whole career. And it was amazing. And I was like, “This is great.” And I was like, “I should do this all of the time,” but it’s just never afforded in the schedule. And so, unless I decide to just go on my own, which I could, but then, I’m always on something else. But yeah, for the people that haven’t experienced that, what is it like? You like sit there and you suggest sound effects, kind of, if you don’t mind, just a little process of what it’s like to be on the sound stage.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Um you know Some editors wanna be there, when they’re building it all together, but I like to just give them time to do their thing. And I’ll come back and give notes, ideally, before the director and before the producers. For TV, I definitely get in there for at least a day before the producers are there for playback, just because I’m looking for things that they may not be concerned about you know. And same thing for the movies. You go there, you watch. For features, because they work in reels, they’ll say, “Okay, we’re going to work on reel one today, day one, reel one.” So they’ll play it. You watch it, you kind of make notes and either time code or like film and feet, you know frames and feet and stuff, um and yeah, you just kind of listen for things. Is the entire line of dialogue clear? Is the sound effect right? Is it too loud? Is it not loud enough? You know how does music sound in combination with all of it you know?

Yeah, it’s a lot of that. And sometimes, you’ll have a great sound effect, but then like, in certain places, it sounds like a production mistake right. And so, you’ll catch those moments. It’s like, “Okay, so at this frame here, can you just lift out that little whatever it might be? Because it sounds like someone dropped a hammer versus what it’s supposed to sound like.” So yeah, it is really, really interesting how things like that come across. And so, I love the process. 

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Now, I’m going to have to see what project I can sneak in on, because yeah, I think there’s times where I’ll listen to the audio after and be like, “Oh, man.” I remember going to a screening of one show I did. It was a big launch, episode one played, and I was like, “Ah, the music’s too loud.” So yeah, maybe I should be allowed to do it. Yeah, I’m gonna, I’m gonna to advocate for myself to go to the sound mix. That’s what’s going to happen.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes, yes. No, I highly recommend it, because yeah, there’s nothing worse yeah, than watching something that’s already done and you’re just cringing, because the music is too loud or not loud enough. you know Yeah, or the ADR sounds like ADR, right?

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nena Erb, ACE:

That’s one thing I look for a lot in the mix. It’s like, “Hey, can we make sure that blends a little bit better? Can we dirty that up, so it’s all sounds the same?” Because ADR has a tendency to sound very clean.

Sarah Taylor, CCE :

Yes, for sure. Yeah. Okay. Well, I’m going to take those tips into my next thing. Was there anything from this film that you learned that you’re taking  onto your next projects?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes. I have definitely learned a better way to organize myself when I have a lot of different options and all you know of a scene, because naturally, I do like different versions to myself, even without improvisation. But I think I hadn’t figured out a really efficient way to manage that until now. And honestly, I’m sure it’ll probably progress and evolve and change as things go on. But having to do that on a feature is, is like it’s it’s a lot, you know cause every scene, there’s something. And so, you have like 120 scenes, and it within that, are all these different versions. So so yeah, so I had to be really organized and quick about it, because when you’re working with them, they’re in the room. You wanna quickly be able to access that version and then, make changes and still keep it all organized.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

A hundred percent. Yeah. like okay. Take it from this bin and adding it to this. Yeah. Oh, I can see how that could get very complicated and wrong sequences could be dropped in. So yeah, organization is such a huge thing in the editing world and how like I find it’s constantly evolving for me as well. And having an assistant who’s really good at organizing is like so, so lovely. I love them when they’re organized. Yes. So anyway, shout out to my assistant, Blair, who does the best organization ever. Yay, Blair. So what what’s coming up next for you? Or what are you working on now? And what can people go watch?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Um I’m on a Marvel project right now. Um yeah, unfortunately, I can’t say too much about it.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

That’s okay.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Or like the Navy SEALs’ gonna crash through my ceiling and take me away.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah like something really very dramatic will happen.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Right. But hopefully, you know it’ll be ready to come out sometime in 2024, provided that hopefully the strike ends soon, we can all go back to work.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah. So what’s been happening for you right now with the strike?

Nena Erb, ACE:

I’m not working right now. I’m just enjoying a little time off. Yeah. I was very fortunate to be working up until the end of July. So yeah, time off for me is a welcome thing right now, so but I know that it’s been really hard for a lot of people in this industry. So as terrible as it is, I mean we all know that it’s difficult, but it’s the right thing to do to strike.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Hopefully it doesn’t last too much longer, and we can get back to creating really funny, hilarious movies like Joy Ride that also impact people and have themselves being seen on screen, which is so important. So um yes. So thank you for all of the amazing work you’ve done on Joy Ride. Anybody out there, please go watch this film. You can rent it now online. I’m sure there’s other places you can stream it from, but oh my gosh, it’s so funny. So go check it out. Is there any last nuggets that you want to share with us today, Nena? Oh, we got to circle back to your funniest joke. Circle back to the joke.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Funniest joke? I think it’s the, “You’re thinking about a penis.”

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Hahaha, yes.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Or the chubby bunny thing.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yes. Oh, okay. Very good.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes, yeah. And the most obscure jokes are, there’s so many that are very culturally specific. But yeah but yeah, the chubby bunny one is definitely one that gets me every time still.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Oh, I love it. Can I ask you, what was it like for you, as an Asian American, getting to work on this film that was pretty much a full cast of Asian people?

Nena Erb, ACE:

It was weird, I’ll be very honest with you. I don’t think I’ve done many projects for like where I see Asians everywhere. It’s all over my dailies. It’s like, “What?” Usually, it’s like you have one or two. You know um, And so, it was refreshing. It was… It was great. It was really, really great. Um and I hope that happens more, because you know I think, for not just Asians, but for everybody, cause it’s important to see yourself represented and to see women that are so like braved to do whatever you know to say things, they’re not afraid to be themselves and it was just a really, it was a good project for me. It kind of like gave me permission to speak my mind more. Um I have a tendency to like think something, and then, I count to 10. And by then, it’s like, who cares? So I don’t even say it, but now, I’m like, “No, I’m not gonna count to 10. I’m just going to say it.”

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Oh, I love that. That’s amazing. Yeah. We should all just say what we need to say. This is great. Oh, that’s wonderful. Well, thank you for sharing your journey on Joy Ride. It was quite fun. And I hope that we can maybe connect and talk about your next project when it’s all out and ready to go.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I love talking to you. You’re amazing.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Great. Thank you so much. Okay. Have a good one.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Thanks.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Thanks. Bye. Thanks so much for joining us today. And a big thanks goes to Nena, for taking the time to sit with me. Special thanks goes to Alison Dower and Kim McTaggart at CCE. The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall, additional ADR recording by Andrea Rush. Original music created by Chad Blain and Soundstripe. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. 

 

The CCE is proud to support CREATIVES EMPOWERED. CREATIVES EMPOWERED is a nonprofit collective of artists and creatives. They are Black, Indigenous, and people of color empowering each other as an allied community. They are film and TV, media and arts professionals from emerging to established based in Western Canada. They’re the first and only organization of its kind in Alberta. CREATIVES EMPOWERED is inspired by and embodies what is truly possible when racialized talent are empowered to thrive.

Speaker 8: 

The CCE is a nonprofit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member, please visit our website, www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

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Please send along any topics you would like us to cover or editors you would love to hear from:

Credits

A special thanks goes to

Kimberlee McTaggart, CCE

Alison Dowler

Xin Gu

Hosted and Produced by

Sarah Taylor

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Original Music by

Chad Blain

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Categories
L'art du montage

Episode 16: SPECIAL EDITION: LES MONTEURS À L’AFFICHE: Round table of family stories

CCE_podcast_TABLE_RONDE_LADM16

Episode 16:
SPECIAL EDITION: LES MONTEURS À L’AFFICHE Round table of family stories

In this new episode, we bring you a roundtable discussion on the theme of "Family stories", which had been presented at the Cinéma Moderne, in Montreal on November 5, 2022, as part of the "Les monteurs à l'affiche" Festival

Les Monteurs à l'affiche - Roundtable family sotries

Since 2016, “Les monteurs à l’affiche” has presented an annual event highlighting the work of editing artisans and to share with the public some of the challenges encountered at this crucial stage of film creation.

For this year’s event, in partnership with Labdoc and Tënk, the organizing committee invited five editors to discuss their work on documentaries about the family. Hosted by Isabela Motta Pincowsca and Anne-Gabrielle Lebrun Harpin, this round table is a unique opportunity to reflect on the family bond between filmmakers and their subjects, and the ways in which this relationship creates creative intimacy in their collaboration with the editor.

All these films are available on several platforms such as Tënk, NFB. Links below.

Une femme, ma mère, de Claude Demers

Les lettres de ma mère, de Serge Giguère

Babushka, de Kristina Wagenbauer

Pinocchio, de André-Line Beauparlant

Le Petit Jésus, de André-Line Beauparlant

Les Rose, Félix Rose

Enjoy!

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What do you want to hear on The Editors Cut?

Please send along any topics you would like us to cover or editors you would love to hear from:

Credits

A special thanks goes to

Michel Giroux

Catherine Legault

Natalie Lamoureux

Xi Feng

Sophie Leblond

Marie-Pier Sevigny

Annie Jean, CCE

Claude Collins

Les Studios MELS

Charles-Alexandre Décoste

Leonardo Lamela

Maud Le Chevallier

Audrey Sylvestre

Podcast Host

Catherine Legault

Roundtable Hosts

Isabela Motta Pincowsca and Anne-Gabrielle Lebrun Harpin

Roundtable Sound recordist

Marie-Pier Sevigny

Editing

Pauline Decroix

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall, adapté en version française par Pauline Decroix

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Music offered by

Sponsored by

Categories
The Editors Cut

Episode 080 – Framing Agnes with Cecilio Guillermo A.S. Escobar & Brooke Stern Sebold

The Editor's Cut - Episode 80

Episode 080 - Framing Agnes with Cecilio Guillermo A.S. Escobar & Brooke Stern Sebold

This episode is a conversation with Brooke Stern Sebold and Cecilio Escobar, the editors behind the genre-blending and award-winning FRAMING AGNES.

This episode was recorded virtually on June 21, 2022.

FRAMING AGNES won the 2022 Sundance NEXT Audience Award and the NEXT Innovator Award, and recently screened at Hot Docs. This empowering and stylish documentary explores the legacy and impact that one trans woman left from the 1960s and onwards. 

With moderator Maureen Grant, this episode will dive into the intricate layers and structure of this innovative hybrid documentary.

This episode was generously sponsored by Integral Artists, IATSE 891, AQTIS 514.

Integral Artists Logo CCE Sponsor
IATSE 2018 Sponsor Event logo
AQTIS 514 IATSE sponsor logo

Cecilio Guillermo Escobar is a video artist, editor, and technician who works and lives in Toronto. He is an original member of the Toronto Queer Film Festival and works as their Technical Media Director. His recent work as Editor on Chase Joynt’s documentary FRAMING AGNES premiered at Sundance 2022. The film won the NEXT Innovator Award and the Audience Award: NEXT at the festival. His work focuses on QTBIPOC stories that push the boundaries of documentary.

Brooke Stern Sebold Headshot

Brooke Stern Sebold (they/she) is a nonbinary filmmaker whose work investigates gender and identity in both doc and narrative spaces. Brooke co-produced and edited the feature documentary FRAMING AGNES, which premiered at Sundance in 2022, winning both the NEXT Audience Award and Innovator Award. Brooke also cut and co-produced FRAMING AGNES the short, which premiered at Tribeca and won the Experimental Award at Outfest. In 2007, Brooke co-directed their first feature doc, RED WITHOUT BLUE, which won the Audience Award at Slamdance and the Jury Award at Frameline and screened at 150+ festivals worldwide. Brooke’s narrative shorts have won awards at Palm Springs ShortsFest and the Florida Film Festival, and Brooke was the recipient of the Cine Golden Eagle Award for Excellence in Directing. When Brooke isn’t writing and pitching shows, they’re editing the Emmy nominated series, BRIEF BUT SPECTACULAR, which airs weekly on PBS NewsHour. Brooke received their BA from Brown University and their MFA from Columbia University. Brooke grew up in the Sonoran desert and loves crystals, doggies, tiramisu and she or they pronouns.

Maureen Grant Headshot

​​Maureen Grant brings a background in visual art, film production, and an MA in Media Studies to her work as an editor for film and television. She is a five-time nominee of the Canadian Cinema Editors Awards, and is an alumnus of the Berlinale Talents 2019 and the 2013 Canadian Film Centre Editors Lab. She has worked with many notable directors on projects that have received international acclaim. PERCY was the top film in Canada on Apple TV iTunes. PYEWACKET premiered at TIFF 2017 and ranked amongst the year’s top horror films internationally. Recent work includes the Canadian Screen Award (CSA) nominated web series QUERENCIA, the CSA winning sketch comedy series TALLBOYZ, the Peacock / Family musical comedy series TAKE NOTE, and the Lifetime movie STOLEN BY THEIR FATHER. Forthcoming work includes Director V.T. Nayani’s feature film THIS PLACE, starring Kawennáhere Devery Jacobs and Priya Guns.

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The Editor’s Cut – Episode 030 – “What is Anti-Oppression? With Tenniel Brown”

Sarah Taylor [00:00:01]

Hello and welcome to The Editor’s Cut. I’m your host Sarah Taylor. At the CCE, we began our journey of self education with Anti-Oppression training in 2019. It was invaluable for us as it provided us with tools to assess how we as an organization could set a course of action to root our unconscious and systematic bias in our operations. This training is now a permanent part of our budget so future board members and volunteers can continue this work, and equity can be part of the fabric of our organization. We are offering a Lunch and Learn Introduction To Anti Oppressive Communication with Tenniel Brown on July 27. Today I’m lucky to be able to sit down with Tenniel Brown and discuss what Anti-Oppressive training is and what we can expect from this webinar. Tenniel Brown is a passionate anti-racist anti oppression and mental health speaker dedicated to improving the experiences of marginalized people in all institutional settings. She is the founder of the Centre For Anti-Oppressive Communication which specializes in providing anti oppressive, trauma-informed counseling, clinical supervision and organizational consulting, as well as customized workshops training and team retreats. I’m joined with Tenniel Brown, she is the founder of the Centre For Anti-Oppressive Communication based in Toronto. And we just want to have a little conversation about why anti oppression work is important in this and all days but specifically right now. So can you just tell us a little bit about your background and why you started the Center For Anti-Oppressive Communication.

Tenniel Brown [00:01:41]

My background is as a psychotherapist. So I spent I’ve spent many many years working with individuals and couples and families and groups helping them to access more of their well-being by addressing different mental health issues specifically trauma. One of the things that I specialize in addressing is racialized trauma. But also trauma that comes from folks that have experienced different types of oppression. And I think for most people that are called to this type of work it’s quite personal for me right. So often when you don’t see the work that you know needs to happen in the community taking place you create it. And so that was me. You know I think I saw that there was a need for organizations to have somebody come in and not just talk about diversity inclusion but talk about what happens when certain identities have power and that unbalance of power and how to actually address that in our communication. I knew that out in the community there were therapists and social workers that were wanting to do better work. You know work in the best practice way with clients that are black, racialized, queer, and trans, and had nowhere to go to get supervision and support. And finally I knew personally that there were so many folks that when they were ready to do therapy work they needed to see someone sitting across the office that looked like them or had a very similar lived experience and they just were not going to come unless that was the case. So all these things I knew was happening and nobody was doing it. And I said someone’s got to do something and that was me. I think what needs to come out of what’s happened in June is for folks to see black professionals and black community in in the in sort of like the the brilliance of what we do and it’s not uncommon that in many cases where we don’t see ourselves we create it. So yeah that was the spirit of and I think that when I started the organization I knew that it was important for there to be a place where folks from those different backgrounds could come and get that support and information. So it’s a real passion of mine. It is my baby and it’s so beautiful to see folks wanting this information during this time.

Sarah Taylor [00:04:01]

Yeah so important. Can you tell us what Anti-Oppression means and what someone can expect by taking an anti oppressive workshop?

Tenniel Brown [00:04:10]

Sure absolutely. So when you sort of break down the word anti oppression anti oppressive practice we take a look at that anti part and essentially that that just means opposition to oppression and then the practice part. So AOP… the practice part pertains to the context in which you are practicing opposition to oppression. So you can apply an anti oppressive lens to just about anything. And I’ve had the opportunity to work with organizations like Pride Toronto and work with your curators to apply an anti-oppressive lens to the way they do event organizing. I have applied an anti oppressive lens to the way I do therapy and clinical supervision with other therapists. You can apply an anti oppressive lens to teaching. You can apply it to student advising, you can apply it to just about anything. I’ve been working with fitness professionals looking at applying an anti oppressive lens to the way that they support folks that are on their fitness journey. So so it’s about looking at whatever practice whatever context you are working in and using that platform to be able to oppose oppression and all of its forms. So that’s essentially what it is.

Sarah Taylor [00:05:29]

And so when someone takes courses like anti oppressive communication course or participates in your courses what can they expect to be talking about or learning?

Tenniel Brown [00:05:37]

Absolutely so I think one of the most important things is to sort of pull back a little bit of you know the cover on this because I think anti oppressive language is its own language. It’s like Spanish. And you see so many people getting themselves into some rather serious trouble these days because they actually don’t know the language they don’t understand… in some ways the harm of some of the things that they’re doing and saying the deep harm of that. You get a lot of people who don’t really know how to talk about these issues. And so you go into a shame spiral and you just don’t talk. You just get very quiet and I always argue that you know the silence piece is a part of how we got ourselves into this trouble as a human society in the first place. So what I offer is something for everybody. I think over the years what folks have said to me is is even somebody who’s maybe got a social work background and knows about anti oppressive practice when they come to one of my trainings they find that they are moved further along in their application of that perspective around “OK, well what does this mean when I’m interacting with somebody right here in a one on one context.” Other people that are completely brand new have never had the chance to learn any of this language or understand any of these concepts have said over the years that they felt like they left with a really good sense of what this topic is. But not just that practical skills. I’m all about practical skills. I want to offer things that folks can use tomorrow today and the next day and my mission is also for folks to leave his training and talk about it. Tell a friend, tell a colleague, tell a family member, and feel equipped to be able to engage in these conversations. So when someone is saying or doing something problematic, you have this confidence in the skills to be able to interpret what’s going on there and to be able to talk to them and to be able to address it. The other thing that I do is I couch everything that I do in my trainings in a self care and team care perspective. And I think this is very important. We have to look after our emotions. We have to look after ourselves and we have to look after each other. I always say you could be as anti oppressive as you want but if you haven’t had any lunch… if you haven’t eaten anything… you’re not good.

Sarah Taylor [00:07:57]

You’ve got the hangries!

Tenniel Brown [00:07:59]

Trust me, Anti-Oppressive work requires patience. It requires empathy. It requires compassion and self compassion. You will fall down a lot and I find you know and I talk a lot about cancel culture and don’t get me wrong really that could be its own podcast.

Sarah Taylor [00:08:19]

Totally. Especially in this industry.

Tenniel Brown [00:08:22]

Look we need to talk about this and I get why certain people are being canceled for sure. And yet as someone who does this work I recognize that I’m so thankful I wasn’t canceled because over the years I’ve done and said things before I knew before I took a course like this before I had an opportunity to learn what was problematic about my lens. I’m so thankful that I was able to make those mistakes in a safe environment and actually benefit from that and grow. So people get a safe environment to learn language and understand what is going on, what is oppression, if oppression is so bad why don’t we just stop this. Well I unpack that for folks. Why is this so complicated and why doesn’t this just stop. And then I provide practical skills for folks to be able to apply this to their lives and their communication. I think the other thing that I think folks get is not just sort of a general whatever, you’ll find that I’m really interested in applying it to film editors and what it is that you do on a regular basis and looking at how you can use your platform to be able to actually oppose oppression.

Sarah Taylor [00:09:31]

Yeah well it’s like it’s huge I know for myself we did anti oppression workshop as a board for the CCE. I’m in an interracial marriage and so I thought “Oh I know a lot.” Like I’ve been unpacking this stuff for a while and understanding in my own way. But also like kind of like how do I say it to my white uncle who is racist like how do I approach that. And by taking that one course, like you said I got so much more understanding of where people might come from and the language and I could approach it not by just being angry because anytime I’d hear anything I was like “You’re talking about my husband, you’re talking about my child! This is not OK!” And so it made a huge impact on me and I felt like I kind of knew some stuff but I realized that there was so much more to learn. And I think I’m still learning and it’s opened up even conversations I’ve had with my husband and my in-laws… and so I think people who are in my situation are like “no I’m cool I got I’m married to so-and-so or I have my best friend or whatever.” You grew up in your lens and there’s way more to learn and unpack.

Tenniel Brown [00:10:41]

Absolutely. Absolutely it’s so true. And I always say that absolutely positively nobody gets a pass on this.

Sarah Taylor [00:10:48]

100 percent.

Tenniel Brown [00:10:49]

At all. You know myself as someone who identifies as a black fem queer woman, you know folks would be like well you know you of course you couldn’t oppress. And it’s like yes we are all susceptible to experiencing oppression and we are all oppressors. So I have aspects of my identity that allow me to have privilege. And the thing about this is that if you’re not aware of those things that’s how you harm people that’s how you engage in micro aggressions. You know what I mean? That’s how you you know get striking up a conversation with someone about your latest renovation in your house when this person is still renting and doesn’t even have access. These are the types of things that you’re never protected from. Right. Like you’re not protected from that in a certain way. So it’s really important to remember that.

Sarah Taylor [00:11:40]

Where should someone start if they’re like feeling overwhelmed they’re like wow I know that I need to make this change. I’ve seen all this information now on social media and I’m saying all the wrong things and like you said I’m just going to be quiet which is not the right thing to do. So where do they go and what should they focus on first to just like get into this mindset of making these changes?

Tenniel Brown [00:12:02]

That’s a great question. And what I would say is education. Not a coincidence right? So of course you know joining with you know your organization to offer this to the community because I think that’s step number one. I think we do need to have good information about… you need to educate yourself. I would say that it’s a really important first step to really listen, and I find even when you have more information and you have more training it even improves the way that you can listen because what you find is when you don’t have that knowledge there’s certain things that are sort of prevent you from even being open. So I find the training and the skills and the confidence that you get from doing the course like this allows you to even listen deeper right and understand more and I think that that’s step number one. I think that once… but don’t stay there! Because I think a lot of people oh I’m listening but really it’s just their guilt and shame. So yeah they’re still not doing anything but once you’ve had the chance to listen you now can start thinking more about your platform and I think that’s one of the most important thing for your listeners to know that if it’s like well I’m not a social worker I’m not a therapist what’s this got to do with me it’s like it has everything to do with you. You have a platform as a film editor and it’s important for you to acknowledge that there are big ways and small ways that you can make a difference. And we all have a responsibility. What’s happened in this world since COVID what’s happened in this world since June is we can no longer close our eyes to this. We have to look at this and all the years that we have stayed silent on this has been what’s caused the problem. So the reality is is that we all are called to use our platform to be able to address this to look around the room and be like who isn’t here? To look around your history of the films that you and different projects you’ve been involved in and being like how many of these people, how many of these stories featured stories that were outside of what we usually see? Right. And looking at the ways that you can use your platform and your influence to be able to make a change, so we’re all called to do that I don’t care if you’re a child care worker or a housekeeper do some working at a gas station, it literally doesn’t matter we’re all a part of this human society. We all have some sort of platform and so we all have a responsibility to do something. You know Sarah one of my favorite slogans that’s come out of the protest is “Silence is Violence.” I love that one because I know what happens when people don’t have education and knowledge. They go into a shame cycle they go into a guilt cycle and they go into fear and you know what happens there? Shh. And you know what, that doesn’t help anybody at all. So I recognize that these are difficult things for us to unpack but we all have a responsibility to use whatever platform we have to make a difference. So starting by educating yourself, listening a lot, and then that’s going to help you to be more open to what you can do. And then looking at your platform whether that be personal or professional to make a change.

Sarah Taylor [00:15:20]

That was perfect. Yeah. That’s huge. And even since I took my training and even just since I’ve done my own inner work I noticed like I wouldn’t pick certain shots anymore or there’ll be things in my edit where I’m like “that’s a stereotype” or “No that’s not going to work. We can’t do that we can’t have that.” And so I think if everybody’s doing that then what we’re seeing on screen can start changing.

Tenniel Brown [00:15:45]

Absolutely. Absolutely and there’s these you know there’s there’s big ways and then there’s little ways like you describe. So it’s it is about really curating your lens, right and making sure that you’re seeing more and I think training like this just helps you to really open up your lens. So you’re not just seeing directly what’s in front of you work to the side of you but it’s more of like a panoramic view which you folks really need in the work that you do.

Sarah Taylor [00:16:09]

100 percent. Yeah. Well I hope that our membership joins us. I know we’ve already been getting people RSVPing which is very exciting. On July 27 2020 to learn and to unpack and to take part and just hopefully we can continue to do stuff with you and just keep educating and making the changes we can make.

Tenniel Brown [00:16:28]

Yeah. Join us. Join us. Don’t hesitate folks. Be a part of this. I’m really looking forward to working with everybody. And you know what we’re gonna have fun. I know these topics are really heavy but we’re gonna have some fun and we’re really going to connect with each other as a community so I look forward to meeting everybody at this training.

Sarah Taylor [00:16:46]

Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today and I look forward to seeing you on the 27th and continuing my journey. So thank you for doing this for us and thank you for sharing your knowledge and your experience with the world. So thank you so much.

Tenniel Brown [00:16:59]

You’re so welcome. Thanks for having me.

Sarah Taylor [00:17:03]

Thank you so much for joining us today. And a big thank you goes to Tenniel Brown and a special thanks to Maureen Grant and Jane MacRae. If you’d like to connect with Tenniel, you can find her on Instagram @TennielBrown. If you’d like to bring Tenniel into your organization to learn more about anti oppressive work, you can check out her website at brownconsulting.com. I look forward to learning more from Tenniel on July 27 2020 at the CCE Lunch and Learn I hope to see you there. The CCE has been supporting BIPOC TV and FILM. BIPOC TV and FILM is a grassroots organization and collective of black, indigenous, and people of colour in Canada’s TV and film industry. From writers, directors, producers, and actors, to editors, crew members, and executives. Their members are a mix of emerging, mid-level, and established industry professionals. BIPOC TV and FILM is dedicated to increasing the representation of BIPOC both in front and behind the camera. If you would like to donate to BIPOC TV and FILM please head to their website at bipoctvandfilm.com. The CCE is taking steps to build a more equitable ecosystem within our industry and we encourage our members to participate in any way they can. 

The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall. Additional ADR recording by Andrea Rusch. Original music provided by Chad Blain. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends to tune in. Til next time I’m your host Sarah Taylor.

Outtro

The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member please visit our website www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

Subscribe Wherever You Get Your Podcasts

What do you want to hear on The Editors Cut?

Please send along any topics you would like us to cover or editors you would love to hear from:

Credits

A special thanks goes to

Kimberlee McTaggart, CCE

Alison Dowler

Hosted and Produced by

Sarah Taylor

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Original Music by

Chad Blain

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Categories
L'art du montage

Episode 015: In conversation around the film Big Giant Wave

CCE_podcast_Episode0015_COMME-UNE-VAGUE_LADM15

Episode 15: In conversation around the film BIG GIANT WAVE

A conversation with Marie-Julie Dallaire and Louis-Martin Paradis, moderated by Isabelle Malenfant, CCE.

CCE_podcast_COMME-UNE-VAGUE_LADM15_Public
Photo Credit: Xi Feng

In this new episode, we are delighted to share with you the meeting that took place at the Cinéma Public in Montreal in October 2022 with the team of the film BIG GIANT WAVE.

The director, Marie-Julie Dallaire, and the editor, Louis-Martin Paradis, shared with the audience, their fascinating adventure during the post-production of this exciting documentary.

Enjoy your listening!

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Subscribe Wherever You Get Your Podcasts

What do you want to hear on The Editors Cut?

Please send along any topics you would like us to cover or editors you would love to hear from:

Credits

A special thanks goes to

Marie-Julie Dallaire

Louis-Martin Paradis

Isabelle Malenfant, CCE

Cinéma Public

Guillaume Potvin

Catherine Legault

MELS Studios

Maud Le Chevallier

Audrey Sylvestre

Hosts

Isabelle Malenfant, CCE (episode introduced by Catherine Legault)

Editing

Pauline Decroix

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall, adapté en version française par Pauline Decroix

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Music offered by

Sponsored by

Categories
The Editors Cut

Episode 078 – Everything Everywhere All at Once with Paul Rogers

The Editor's Cut - Episode 078: Everything Everywhere All at Once with Paul Rogers

Episode 078 - Everything Everywhere All at Once with Paul Rogers

In this episode Sarah Taylor sits down with Paul Rogers.

This episode is sponsored by DGC Alberta.

Paul Rogers - TEC 078
The Editor's Cut - Episode 078: Everything Everywhere All at Once with Paul Rogers

Paul Rogers began his professional career in 2007 editing documentary films for public television in Alabama, winning 4 Emmy Awards. He made the jump to Los Angeles in 2013 and kicked off a career in music videos with the DANIELS’ directed ‘Turn Down For What’ and further collaborated with DANIELS on the short films ‘Interesting Ball’ and ‘Boat Dad’ as well as one half of the duo, Daniel Scheinert, on the A24 feature film ‘The Death of Dick Long,’ which premiered at Sundance in 2018. He dipped back into documentaries in 2020 with ‘You Cannot Kill David Arquette,’ an official SXSW selection and winner of the Adobe Editing Award. His next film is Isaiah Saxon’s debut feature ‘The Legend of Ochi.’ Along with feature films, he has edited for the Eric Andre Show, Kendrick Lamar, Flying Lotus, Haim, and Thundercat among others. Paul has also collaborated extensively with director Kahlil Joseph on projects such as ‘Lemonade’ for Beyonce, ‘Process’ for Sampha, and Joseph’s most recent work ‘BLK NWS.’ Paul is a partner in the editorial company PARALLAX located in Los Angeles.

Sarah and Paul discuss his career journey and how he approached the editing behind Everything Everywhere All At Once.

The Editor's Cut - Episode 078: Everything Everywhere All at Once with Paul Rogers

Everything Everywhere All At Once Trailer:

 
 
This episode was generously sponsored by DGC Alberta
 

The short film that inspired Paul to go to LA!

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The Editor’s Cut – Episode 078 – Everything Everywhere All at Once with Paul Rogers

 Sarah Taylor: 

This episode was generously sponsored by the Directors Guild of Canada, Alberta District Council. If you reside in the province of Alberta and are interested in editing, contact the DGC Alberta to learn more.

Paul Rogers:

We wanted to stay in the wides as much as we could, and we wanted to not be cutting around when we didn’t know what was happening. And a big way of leveling that playing field between us, indie action film and big blockbuster film, was time-remapping and splitting the screen and combining takes; and making a punch that may not have been thrown quite with the force it needed, speed ramping it, and making it feel better. And when someone flies back, slowing them down in midair so that there’s more of a weight, and then speeding it up right as they hit the ground so that you feel that impact. These are all just little reasons why Premiere worked out really well.

Sarah Taylor:

Hello and welcome to The Editor’s Cut. I’m your host, Sarah Taylor. We would like to point out that the lands on which we have created this podcast and that many of you may be listening to us from, are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we are on ancestral territory that has long served as a place where Indigenous peoples have lived, met and interacted. We honor, respect and recognize these nations that have never relinquished their rights or sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many contributions and the concerns that impact Indigenous individuals and communities. Land acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.

Today, I bring to you an interview with Paul Rogers, the Academy Award-winning editor for Everything Everywhere All At Once. We discuss Paul’s journey from Alabama to Hollywood, what it was like working with the Daniels on Everything Everywhere All At Once, and Paul’s philosophies in and outside the edit suite. Without further ado, I bring you Paul Rogers.

Speaker 3:

And action.

Sarah Taylor:

This is The Editor’s Cut.

Speaker 4:

A CCE podcast.

Speaker 3:

Exploring, exploring, exploring the art-

Speaker 4:

Of picture editing.

Sarah Taylor:

Paul, thank you so much for joining us on The Editor’s Cut today. I’m very excited to chat with you all things editing.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah. Thanks for having me. It’s always fun.

Sarah Taylor:

Excellent. Yeah, I know. Editors talking with editors is like-

Paul Rogers:

I know.

Sarah Taylor:

I can just do it for days.

Paul Rogers:

I know. It’s funny. I was just talking to somebody the other day about this about the American Cinema Editors, which I guess is the American version of y’all, we… 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

-when we get together. I’m not a member, but I was invited to do some stuff this year, it’s almost more awkward because you’re like, “Oh, my God.” These people not only speak the same language as me, but like… but they understand the work in a way that’s different and they can see the both the good parts and the cracks and the flaws in what I do you know more than most people, who are just like, “Wow, that was… that was  cool. That was crazy. I’m very impressed.” They’re like, “Yeah, well, but that one like.. . one  part was a little funky.”

Sarah Taylor:

Like, “What were you doing there?” No, well, I don’t have anything critical to say about the work you’ve done on Everything Everywhere All At Once. But before we start talking about that specific film, because I think you’ve probably talked about it a lot as of recent, I’m sure; but I want to know, how did you get to where you are today? What was the thing that drew you to editing? And a… just a little bit of your backstory. What’s your origin story?

Paul Rogers:

I started in high school. I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, and I went to Homewood High School. And there was a guy in my high school who I had kinda observed. He had what I guess I would call a bit of a racket, in that he would… we would all get assigned these essays on you know… the Spanish War of whatever, and he would be like, “I’m going to make a video. I’m going to make a movie about it.” And then he would go and make a kung fu movie-

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, my gosh.

Paul Rogers:

… and submit it. But it would be so… He put so much time and effort into it that the teacher would be like, “Eh, well,  you know… you tried hard, so here’s a B…B-plus.” And I was like, “That seems cool.” So he… we had like a similar social studies project and he umm.. you know.. was making, obviously, a mafia movie about whatever. And uhh.. so I just joined up and we you know… spent all night at my dad’s office just running around and having you know pretend fights and shooting pretend guns. And then uhh… I was like, “This is some of the most fun I’ve ever had.” And so we just started making a lot of films together. His name was Peter Hastings. And… and eventually, I got to a point, this is all in high school, where I was like, “I wonder if I could do this for a living.” I started looking into film schools and talked to my parents. And to my surprise, they were supportive. And I went… ended up going to College of Santa Fe, which is a small little undergrad school in New Mexico, and uhh… loved it. It was beautiful. Uhh… and they had a start… first year or two of the school, we had to shoot and edit everything on 16.

Sarah Taylor:

Mmm.. Nice.

Paul Rogers:

And so I was on a steam beck you know.. umm… cutting film and.. and…liked it; but it was you know… it’s intimidating and it’s hard. It’s hard work. And then by the time they let us start using Final Cut and Avid, you know I had… It’s its… nice because coming to Final Cut or Avid from a year or two of editing on film is like a revelation-

 

Sarah Taylor:

Mmhmm…

Paul Rogers:

…and it’s incredible and you realize just how amazing they are. Whereas I… you know.. I grew up with computers. I was making… This stuff we were working on in high school, I was using Windows Movie Maker or whatever-

Sarah Taylor:

Wow..

 

Paul Rogers:

…so it just kinda seemed natural. Of course, this is how it works. So you know… learning on film really gave me an appreciation for what non-linear editing is, you know… for what it… what it can do for you, and .. and how amazing it is. And I found myself in school, in college, directing and writing and shooting and acting and just every time I would do one of those, I would kinda just be waiting to get to the edit so I could play, so I could really have the fun that I wanted to have. And it took me a while to realize that I could do that for other people. So I remember the first guy, his name is Zeeshan McCaughney. He asked me to cut his film that he had shot. And I was like, “You can do that? You can do other people’s stuff?” And so I did it. It was amazing and it was really fun. He was really happy. And I just started doing that in school and cutting stuff for other people and realized that it was… that  was where I was happiest. And so  got really lucky; got out of college and got a job at public television, cutting documentaries in Alabama, and did that for you know… even years and kinda thought I was settling in you know.. I… I like…I was 24, got married, got a dog, got a house,like.. you know… had a good job with a retirement plan, and was like, “All right. Now we’ll just do this forever and then I’ll get old and die.” And I was at work doing what you do at a job sometimes, which is kinda like screwing around on the internet and watching other stuff and not working. And I watched a film called Until The Quiet Comes by a director named Kahlil Joseph. Just watched it again and again and then was just floored by it. And I went home and told my wife, Becky, “I think I have to quit my job and I have to find these people and I have to move to LA and… and-

Sarah Taylor:

Wow.

Paul Rogers:

… uproot our lives.” And she was like, “Uhh.. Okay. No, thank you.” Uhhh.. But she you know… was like, “Look, you go out there and and… give it a shot and I’m gonna stay here and keep my job and keep our house, and I… you know… keep the the.. bank account, checking account with a little bit of money in it.” Because I went out there at age 29 and became an unpaid intern and was just working for free.

Sarah Taylor:

Wow.

Paul Rogers:

So you know.. I foun… found Khalil’s editor, Luke Lynch, who cut that with him, and took him out for drinks and you know… got some advice. And when I came out here, I never asked for a job and I never asked for work or never asked for anything except for advice. And so he just gave me advice and he invited me to uhmm.. Absolutely Productions, which is where Tim and Eric, you know… the comedy duo, it’s their company. And he was cutting The Eric Andre Show, season one… Season two, maybe. And he just gave me the code for the door of the production company.

Sarah Taylor:

Wow.

Paul Rogers:

So I just started showing up every morning, just dialing in the code. And I would you know sweep the floors or organize the cereal boxes or whatever, just make myself useful. And one day, one of the producers there was like, “You’re an intern, right?” And I was like, “Yeah, sure.” He was like, “Did you fill your paperwork out?” I was like, “Nope.” He was like, “Okay, here’s your internship paperwork.” So that’s how I became an intern.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, my goodness.

Paul Rogers:

I just slid in.

Sarah Taylor:

You got the code and you organized that cereal.

Paul Rogers:

I just showed up. I think in general, I had had interns at my old job. I knew what a good intern was; just someone who doesn’t walk around asking people for things to do. They just do stuff that needs to be done. And it doesn’t matter if it’s like, you know…  “Do you want me to organize this footage?” or this was back when tapes were still a thing, too. I’ll organize your tapes, I’ll label your hard drives. I will go to the grocery store and I’ll go pick up lunch you know… and then I got lucky enough to intern on season two, assist on season three, and then I was cutting on season four of The Eric Andre Show. And in between there, I was you know… meeting people. I met Dan and Daniel, roller skating in Glendale and cut the music video with them.

Sarah Taylor:

Were you good at roller skating and then that was like, “Oh, this guy’s cool”?

Paul Rogers:

Yeah. I can do it.

Sarah Taylor:

I can do it.

Paul Rogers:

I stayed upright-

Sarah Taylor:

Perfect.

Paul Rogers:

… for the most part. But yeah, so that… it wasn’t super linear, like I interned and then I assisted and then I edited and then that was it. That was my big break. Because I was doing stuff on the side and so was Luke. And and… Luke and I ended up becoming partners with Kahlil and with Graham Zeller in a company that was called Parallax. and yeah, I met Dan and Daniel roller skating. We hung out. It was great. I was like, “These are good people.” I volunteered at a kids’ camp that they had going on where they teach kids how to make music videos.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, that’s cool.

Paul Rogers:

And they saw you know… some of my editing that I did on the kids’ music videos and were like you know…, “Hey, we have this silly music video called Turn Down For What, if you want to… We’ve never worked with an editor, so maybe you could give it a shot.” And so I did and it worked out well and we just kept working together. We did Interesting Ball, a short film, and a couple other things. And so you know… I just kinda like… tried to follow my interests and and… surround myself with good people who were also doing good work and try to stay away from the bad people who were doing good work or… you know… I definitely you know… I prefer good people who do bad work, to bad people who do good work.

Sarah Taylor:

I would have to agree with that. 

Paul Rogers:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

How did you determine, like decipher that when you first got to L.A.? Like who was right? Who was good for you?

Paul Rogers:

It was really just gut feeling. Like  I met with Luke at a bar the first night or maybe the second night I flew into L.A., because I flew out really just to take Luke out for drinks. I flew out here, I took him out for drinks, I flew home. And then I…  I was like, “It seems like he’s a nice guy. I can make this work.” About six months later, I got my stuff in order and I drove out-

Sarah Taylor:

Wow.

Paul Rogers:

… in my CRV. and uhmm.. but yeah, it was really just Luke was a good guy. He was nice and he was straightforward and honest and it didn’t feel like he was bullshitting me and he wasn’t trying to get free work out of me. He would pay me when he could and you know… but a lot of that stuff, like I said, was… you know.. A music video, you get paid like 200 bucks.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

 

Paul Rogers:

It was nothing. And most of it, that was back in the day when legally you could be an unpaid intern. So I worked for free for a long time and my wife was just paying my bills.

Sarah Taylor:

Thanks, Becky.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, totally. And then even when she moved out, she got to keep her job and go remote, which back then was not really a thing. So yeah and then Dan and Daniel were just… I mean… You can see it when you see them in interviews. They’re just really solid, great, wonderful people. So it wasnt any kinda… I didn’t have any kind of checklist. It was just like… if I vibed, if I got a good feeling, then great. If I got a weird feeling, then no, thank you.

Sarah Taylor:

I think that’s a hard thing for people you know…  younger in their career to listen to that intuition and that gut. I know a lot of that plays into all you do in the edit suite as well, but you need to have that trust with the people you’re working with.

Paul Rogers:

I think so. And I think it’s also like if you find yourself trying to convince yourself to do something, to take a project, or trying to convince yourself to work with somebody, well, you know… coming up with reasons, probably not a good idea. Something in your gut is telling you not to and then your brain’s trying to convince your gut to do it you know.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, I’ve had many experiences like that and I’m always like-

Paul Rogers:

Me, too.

Sarah Taylor:

… “Remember that time when this happened before?”

Paul Rogers:

yeah I still do it. I’m still like, “Well, it’s a good opportunity and I don’t know, it could be nice.”

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, but then it’s always a challenge.

Paul Rogers:

I never… I have never proven my gut wrong. Every single time I’ve done that, I’ve been like, “I fu… I knew it. I knew this was going to end.” But I just I… convinced myself it was going to be fine and it’s never worked out.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. So how long was it from the time that you you know… took out Luke for drinks to then having… now you have a company, you’ve worked together, you’re doing Oscar winning films? How long have you yeah I guess how long have you been in L.A.?

Paul Rogers:

I’ve been in L.A… Well, 2013, July, 2013, so it’s coming up on 10 years. But like I said, I had you know… seven years of editing experience professionally in Alabama. Although, I think it paid off. It didn’t pay off in terms of real… Nobody cared what I did in Alabama. Its In L.A., it’s very much, “What have you done with people that I know?”

Sarah Taylor:

Yes.

Paul Rogers:

And what have you done that I’ve seen? And I hadn’t done any of that. It was all stuff that’s just airing you know… locally. So… I had the work ethic, I think, and the ability to work with people. And I was beginning to develop a kind of… I don’t know if you would say a style, but just a sensibility, I guess. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Mmhmm…

 

Paul Rogers:

And so I think that helped me kinda accelerate here a little bit faster than if I’d come out here when I was 23 you know…. Yeah. And it was 10 years and then all of a sudden, to be honest.

I did a film in, what was that, 2016, called The Death of Dick Long. It was my first feature. It was really fun. It was with Daniel Scheiner. That wasn’t like the big break. Then all of a sudden, I was doing features and just meeting with all kinds of directors. It was a great experience and it was you know… one of the most fun edits I’ve ever done. But its not you know…. it was really like Everything Everywhere that all of a sudden it just hit so hard and and worldwide. I think all of us who worked on it were just kinda blown away. And our lives changed overnight, professionally, at least.

Sarah Taylor:

Wow. Well, I’d like to talk about Everything Everywhere All At Once. You know… you  mentioned that you met the Daniels rollerskating, which I think is awesome. Led you to music videos, short films. What was that initial conversation when they said, “Hey, we have this film”? How did did that go?

Paul Rogers:

They had made a film called Swiss Army Man with an editor named Matt Hannam.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, yeah. He’s Canadian.

Paul Rogers:

He’s Canadian, right?

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

He’s become a great friend. He’s got just an incredible like CV. He’s got so many great films and worked with so many great filmmakers. So they told me that they were working on Everything Everywhere and they invited me to Dan Kwan’s back kinda his back office, which basically is his converted garage. And they just said they wanted to walk through the script, that they had been doing this with people. They had been talking through the script with people because it helps them in the writing process to talk it out and then to ask questions afterwards.

And so I sat back there with John Wong, the producer, and they just acted it out. They weren’t jumping around and wearing outfits or anything, but they were like they would just talk it through. “Okay, this happens, this happens. And then he comes up and the dad says this.” And then they would say it. And it took two hours or something. It was a long time just sitting and listening. But it was really, really fun and really beautiful. And and I.. you know.. I cried four times. I remember being like, “That was amazing.” I’ve never cried, someone just telling me a story.

And back then, it was a story of a father-daughter, and it was Jackie Chan, was the idea. And Evelyn was more of a… not a side character, but she wasn’t the main character. And then they did that and I was like, “This is amazing. I cannot wait to see it. I hope you make it. I hope you get all the money you need. And I hope you cast… I hope you get Jackie Chan,” because that was who they were going out for. And then a while later theysaid they let me know that they had changed the script up. They had switched it to be about a mother-daughter, and Evelyn was now the main character and they had Michelle Yeoh in mind.

And I was so excited because I love… Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was a pretty important film for me growing up because, this is sad, but it’s one of the first foreign films that I’d seen, really, in theaters. My dad would always rent foreign films and bring them home and we’d watch them, but that was my first theatrical experience with that. And it really opened me up and got me excited and I really started exploring just just foreign films, in general. And anything outside of the mainstream started to be exciting for me and it even got me into indie filmmaking. And I loved Michelle in that and so I was really excited.

And then they asked me if I wanted to cut it, and I was like… immediately terrified. Because I had sat through that thing and I was like, “This is going to be an insane film and it’s going to be really hard to cut and shoot and act.”

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

 

Paul Rogers:

Like All of it was a challenge. Everything they were laying out seemed impossible. So I said, “Yeah.” And then I immediately called Matt Hannam and I was like, “Can you… can I take you out for drinks or dinner? And I just I think I need your help. I need to know that I could do this. I need your moral support.”

And he was super gracious and you know.. we went out. It was like the week before lockdown too. We were like, “Should we be out? And he just walked me through his process and the experience of working with them and… and just his experience working on so many films with so many directors. And a lot of it was just kinda like talking about personality and keeping the energy up and keeping everyone happy and excited. And that stuff’s the stuff that I really… like.. I know that through the process of editing, the iterative just work through it process, we’ll figure it out editorially.

I just wanted to also make sure that it was a positive experience and that we all could stay friends; because I was good friends with Dan and Daniel, and this was a big movie, and I knew it was going to be stressful and knew it was going to be hard, and I didn’t want to jeopardize or what we had going personally. So that was a really, really big help. And then yeah they sent me the script. I read the new script. I was scared all over again. And then we just got to it. I just kinda had to not think about it as a filmmaker at first and think about it as just I was excited to help my friends make this crazy thing you know.

Sarah Taylor:

From that.. the rewrite of the script that you read after you signed on as editor, how much has that has that changed to what we see in the final film?

Paul Rogers:

The rewrite’s you know… pretty much there. There’s some stuff that got cut, but they had worked on that script for maybe, I think, three years you know.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, wow. Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

And they had a lot of help from other people just reading it and giving notes and smart filmmakers and writers. I think people would be surprised at how dialed in it was and how much the edit reflects that script. We cut a couple of universes. There was one called the Spaghetti Baby Noodle Boy Universe.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, my gosh.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, that one’s on the cutting room floor. It’s on the deleted scenes, though. But it was Evelyn was a spaghetti noodle in a pot of spaghetti noodles, and then Jenny Slate played her little boy who was a macaroni noodle, who was like, you know…”I’m the only one that’s not shaped like the other noodles. I have a hole. No noodles have holes. I don’t belong.” And anyways, it was a… it’s very funny. You should check it out.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, I’m going to totally check that out. That’s amazing.

Paul Rogers:

It was one of my favorite parts of the script, but it just didnt it  never worked in the film. And we really tried. It was in there until some of the later, later, later cuts. And every screening people would be like, “Yeah, I dont…I dont.. I didn’t really vibe with that part of the film.” We were like, “Just wait. We’ll just well change the treatment, we’ll change the genre, we’ll mess with the music, change the voiceover.” And then we’re just like, “No, nothing’s working.”

Sarah Taylor:

You really wanted to save the spaghetti.

Paul Rogers:

We really did.

Sarah Taylor:

Wanted it to be saved. I’d like to talk about like the team that worked in post. Did you have assistant editors? I know you were working during COVID, so that changed how it would work and everybody had to change how they worked. 

Paul Rogers:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

So..What was the team?

Paul Rogers:

It started off with me and Zekun Mao, who’s incredible. And she was from AFI and yeah she had to pivot immediately the first week of… We had one week where we were working in the office off of our network, off our server. And then we all got an alert on our phones. It was like, “Go home and stay home.” And so I…I  remember just grabbing an iMac off the desk and a hard drive and running home. And we all did that. And you know.. I had never worked remotely. I had taken a music video home and done that, but not like this and not with a team. And the way that me and Dan and Daniel work is they cut with me. you know… They have the premier project and we’re trading ideas constantly. And so it was a challenge, to say the least.

And she just figured it out. We got on Resilio Sync, we synced up all our hard drives. We got Evercast going. We tried everything you know… We tried Zoom, we tried Google Meet. Just, “How can we si… how can all  sit in a room together and work?” She figured it out. It was amazing. And I didn’t really have to worry about it. And also, Adobe was really helpful because this was before productions came out. And for those that don’t know, productions is basically It… functions the way Avid has, as far as sharing bins and having multiple editors in a project. It was still in beta. And we just reached out and said, “We’re doing this crazy thing. Do you have any help for us?” And they said, “Well, we have this secret thing we’re working on and maybe we can get you on the beta and you can try it out.” And that was a lifesaver.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, my goodness. No kidding.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, and it worked out great for remote work, and they also just gave us access to their engineers so we could be like, “How does this work?” And they would jump on a Zoom and just walk us through it or you knwo…

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, wow.

Paul Rogers:

Or occasionally, we…we.. because it was in beta, we found a bug and they would just push an update for us you  know… So that was a dream come true. We had a lot of great smart people figuring out how to work remotely. And then Zekun had to leave about halfway through to cut her first feature. And she introduced us to Aashish DeMello who took over and he took us through to the end. And it was like you know.. a dream team. Everyone was great, everyone was on it. I had very little to.. to… worry about. The one thing that I wish I had done more of is just relied on them creatively more, because I think I was so wrapped up in just my own like anxieties about the film. And because of the remote workflow where they weren’t in the office, I had dreamed of including them a lot more. of like “Do a pass on the scene and and you know.. come sit with me for a while.” And it just didn’t work out that way. And I think a lot of it was just kinda me yah me getting caught up in my own anxieties about the film. But the couple of times when I remembered to do it, it was great.  you know It was a good cut. Did some assemblies of scenes that were really, really fun. And she was great because she spoke Mandarin and Cantonese. I don’t speak Mandarin and Cantonese. Dan Kwan speaks a little bit, but he’s not fluent. And so she was subtitling for us and she would even say, like you know… “That’s a pretty good take, but they you know they flubbed the line there or they said the word a little funky. It just sounds weird.” And so she would help us even with our selects and stuff.

Sarah Taylor:

That’s amazing.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

That’s a great asset. Yeah. You mentioned your anxieties of doing this massive film that had many themes, many genres, or styles you could say, of different inspiration from different films. How did you handle all that? Were there films that you watched to be like, “Oh, this is a good reference for this universe,” or like yeah… how did you tackle all the worlds?

Paul Rogers:

I mean I think it’s pretty obvious that the Matrix was a huge influence and reference. And I think you can’t really make a sci-fi action film in our generation of filmmakers without even accidentally referencing and pulling from the Matrix. It was so influential. I just bought tickets to watch it on 35, actually, last night.

Sarah Taylor:

Nice.

Paul Rogers:

It’s at a local theater. I haven’t seen it in theaters since it came out. You know… I watched it when I was 15 or whatever.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, my goodness.

Paul Rogers:

Anyways, so that was a big one. And the temp score, half the temp score at the very beginning was the Matrix score because it just fits, and it also has kinda shorthand. They did a really good job of establishing… I guess it’s the its kinda the water harp. I don’t know exactly what it’s called, but this sound that they use that just lets you know something funky is going on in the Matrix right now. Just pay attention. That kind of stuff was really useful. And Son Lux, our composer, ended up, I think, taking some inspiration from that and trying to figure out their own version of that. What was that version of the Multiverses, is something’s happening you know… or something’s coming. The Matrix Dan and Daniel had us watch Holy Motors, which is incredible; but it’s less of a stylistic reference or storytelling reference and more of a reference of, “Hey, you can ignore the rules of filmmaking and storytelling and still have a really powerful emotional experience.” you know… And uhhh.  we watched Paprika, which is a great film from Japan, and Mind Game. And really for Mind Game, there was …there’s a section at the end of that film, it’s animated, where they’re trying to escape out of the belly of a whale. And it’s like 30 minutes and I don’t think there’s any dialogue and it’s just pure insanity. And so Dan Kwan always talked about that as a reference for the end of our film, kinda going up the staircase, that section. There’s just so many like incredible films that would come up. Obviously, In The Mood For Love. they… I don’t even know if we even mentioned it by name while we were cutting because it was just so obvious. This is in the In The Mood For Love universe you know; what we would call, I guess, the movie star universe. I call it a sexy wayman universe.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, that’s true.

Paul Rogers:

The nice thing about audiences today is we’re all… Because of streaming and because we grew up with just film as an… such a more accessible, even just because we had Blockbusters where we could rent movies and re-watch them; versus my parents’ generation we’re like, “If you didn’t catch it in theaters, you didn’t see it.” Because of that, we have a really kinda ingrained knowledge of genre and an understanding of the tropes of each genre. Even if we don’t have that kinda vocabulary, we’re just general film goers, we know what it means, what it sounds like and feels like, to be in an action film or romance or rom-com or you know comedy. And so we could lean on those editorially as we’re jumping back and forth between universes to just center people and ground people in what they’re what theyre in. Because its its… we’re asking a lot of the audience. We talked a lot about this; the whiplash the whiplash the film is by design creating as you fly back and forth between genres. And it’s nice to just give people a clue, like, “Okay, you are in the  this is the Lifetime family drama genre.” you know..  And the aspect ratio plays into that, the music, the color correction, you know… even their performances. They kinda dialed in to that you know… And the pacing of it, we would just try to emulate those things. Comedy genre or multiverse, the action universe, the horror film universe, or just you know… those moments. That was really fun to get to play in all those different genres and be like, “Okay, what are the things we can do to help the audience know where they where they are and what’s going on and and how they can.. how they should be reading this andand and and ingesting this?”

Sarah Taylor:

You came up with a technique and I’m curious where it came from, to signal the audience that were you know…. there’s going to be a shift, we’re going to go into the multiverse. And there was the glass cracking, the sounds. Was that some of stuff that was established within like the initial edits or was that after the fact?

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, it was  editorially, we figured it out. And the glass cracking, I remember early on Dan and Daniel, they were just they were trying a bunch of stuff with Zak Stoltz, the VFX supervisor, and the glass cracking was just one of them you know..  They had a bunch of different ideas. And then I was playing around a lot with sound design you know. What would it sound like? That reverse bell ring that ended up being… It was just one of many options we had. And you know… the nice thing about the glass thing, too, was the sound of it is so visceral and gives you that feeling because it’s not a pleasant sound and it sounds like something’s going wrong. And that’s how it should feel you know.. when she’s split between these universes and trying to center herself.

So pretty early on, we we.. I think Dan and Daniel and Zak decided that that was the move. And then it was just a matter, for me, of kinda sound design and how can I play within that space and how can we all just experiment so that no no like no multiverse shift is ever exactly the same. And can we can we tailor them each to what’s going on in that moment, and can we have fun and play and subvert expectations now that… Once we establish a language, can we play within that you know…

Sarah Taylor:

Break those rules.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. I like it. Was there a scene that was the most challenging?

Paul Rogers:

God, I mean the whole thing was challenging. I think we for different reasons, different scenes. The first 15 minutes in the laundromat were challenging, only because we found out pretty early that if we didn’t nail the characters and who they are and their motivations and and also just make the audience care about them within the first 15, that the rest of the film just never worked. And especially that end scene, the parking lot between Evelyn and Joy. The first couple cuts, like people got it, but they didn’t feel it. People weren’t crying as they watched that you know. And it was because we weren’t doing what we needed to be doing in the first 15 minutes.

Sarah Taylor:

Right… yeah.

Paul Rogers:

And we ended up really dialing in the performances. and… Not that they weren’t there, but we just weren’t using them the way that we needed to be. And then they added a.. a pickup shot of Joy driving away crying; because the way that her character was handling all this drama with her mom in the in the script and the way that it was shot was she was putting up a brave face and just giving it back as much as she was giving it to her mom, for the most part. We were trying to figure out ways within what they shot to just like, “Okay, can we hold on Joy as she’s upset with her mom for calling Becky her friend.” And we were pushing that as much as we could. And then finally, Dan and Daniel were like, “I think we just need to do a pickup.” And so they shot that moment of her weakness and her vulnerability and it really just carries through for the rest of the film.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, I think that… Yeah, what a good… what a good  decision.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Knowing that you have a background in music videos, did you find that was really helpful for a lot.. lot of the action scenes and the speed ramping, those skills…  technical skills that you would’ve taken from the music video world?

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, I think the more expansive the type of work you can do, the better. I mean… you know I wish I had done more weird stuff and it all would’ve been helpful. Music videos are fun because there’s a general like lower stakes quality to them that allows you to really just get weird and experiment. And whatever makes it fun and enjoyable to watch, works. So you don’t have to follow many rules. The only rule is try to make the song better, somehow you know. I feel like Turned Down For What, because of the treatment of the way that they made that music video like, it makes me like the song more and I picture that. And.. you know… same with Until The Quiet Comes by Kahlil is like. That song means a lot to me when I hear it because I see those images in my head.

Sarah Taylor:

Mmm. Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

It’s one of the sources of anxiety, sometimes, in working on a music video for a really good song, is is like…if you don’t elevate it, then you might run the risk of the opposite, of making it be like, “Yeah, when I… now when I hear that song, I see that terrible music video in my head.”

Sarah Taylor:

They ruined it.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah. And that’s scary. That’s a real responsibility that editors have, I think, in everything we do is like I felt that on this film. “Man, if I screw this up, it’s going to make Michelle look bad, it’s going to make Ke look bad, Stephanie Hsu, it’s going to make Dan and Daniel look bad, the production designer, Jason you know… These are all my friends that work on this stuff. And so it passes through my hands at the very end; and in my mind, that means if it’s not good, it’s my fault and I’m letting all these people down. I think it’s important to hold that responsibility every day.

Sarah Taylor:

I’m curious about your choice to use Premiere. I’m primarily a prem…Premiere editor myself and so…

Paul Rogers:

Mmhmm..

 

Sarah Taylor:

And what were the advantages… Obviously, productions was…very handy for you, but what were some of the other advantages you found using that system?

Paul Rogers:

I learned Avid in school and liked it. And I also learned Final Cut in school. It was probably 4, Final Cut 5, or I don’t know 3 I dont know what it was.

Sarah Taylor:

3 was their big one that came out. We were like, “Whoa.”

Paul Rogers:

That was probably it. Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

Final Cut 3. And then I… when I got out of school, my job at public television, they were on Final Cut Pro, so I just got used to that. And then when they decided to go to X…Final Cut X, me and Luke, I remember, were working and we were like, “Should we do Avid? Should we go to Avid or should we go to Premiere?” And we were both like, “We don’t really want to go to Premiere,” because we don’t know it and it it… didn’t have a good reputation and so…. Because we were dismissing it, we were like, “Well, we should try it then because that’s dumb to not try it and just dismiss it.” you know And so we gave ourselves a week and it was a pretty slow week and we had maybe a music video or something. And we cut it and you know.. Premiere was smart and you could choose Final Cut 7 keyboard shortcuts, which I’ve still… My shortcuts are super modified, but they’re kinda based on that.

And we liked it and there was a lot of like freedom in the Premiere workflow. It’s a little more kinda improv jazz. It’s a little less tied to the film workflow. Avid is very much like emulating the film workflow, which is great for people who came from film, who cut in film for years and years and years. Because Final Cut was less of a film workflow, as well, I think I was just separated from that workflow so much that Premiere made more sense and felt more free to me. And and honestly, it just like… I feel like it’s like arguing over what brand of drill you like its like.

Sarah Taylor:

Hundred percent.

Paul Rogers:

They both fucking drill holes like…. you know.

Sarah Taylor:

Nobody knows the difference between those two holes, what drill happened. Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying so like…. As long as the work gets done, it doesn’t matter. It’s just a personal preference of what frustrates me less; and Premiere personally frustrates me less. And I like i like Avid. I’m working on Avid on a project right now. It’s just because certain projects are started, then it’s a pain to convert them. I like, also, the fact that Dan and Daniel… And I think 95% of the VFX in this film were done in After Effects. And they would just you know.. shoot it off to After Effects and bring it back and it was so easy and so fast.

And I love… I temp in a ton of VFX in my projects and I do a ton of audio effect work. And so it’s heavily sound design and heavily affected. And being able to like…  do a really fast mat over someone and split screen to combine two takes, like it takes me four seconds to do a really pretty solid key. you know… And there’s this good amount of green screen in this. And then once…  I’d never really used time-remapping keyframes on the timeline; and once I figured that out in Premiere for this film especially, it became huge.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, it’s a game changer once you can wrap your head around how to make it work.

Paul Rogers:

Man it was like… we.. they shot a lot.. Because of the music video background, they shot a lot of their stuff at high frame rates so that we had the option to slow down. Even if we didn’t, I could play so much with just like… Not so much performances, but like… what’s going on in the background while someone’s doing something in the foreground you know.. in a non-action scene. But in the action scenes especially, we would really like… Because we wanted to not… A lot of the reason that indie action movies get so cutty in their in their… action scenes is because they have to. Because they just don’t have the time for rehearsal, they don’t have the time and money for a four-day shoot on a one scene fight. And that was how this was. like… The fanny pack fight they shot in a day, I think, which is crazy. They spend a week on that stuff in Hong Kong.

Sarah Taylor:

Wow.

Paul Rogers:

And we wanted to stay in the wides as much as we could and we wanted to not be cutting around where you didn’t know what was happening. And a big way of leveling that playing field between us, indie action film and big blockbuster film, was time-remapping and splitting the screen and combining takes; and you know… making a punch that may not have been thrown quite with the force it needed, like… speed ramping it, and making it feel better. And when someone flies back, slowing them down in mid-air so there’s more of a weight, and then speeding it up right as they hit the ground so that you feel that impact. and so that was…

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

…that was…These are all just little reasons why Premiere worked out really well.

Sarah Taylor:

Very effective. Okay, so let’s jump to the Oscars. like… What a ride for your whole team.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

It came out, I think, when it needed to come out.

Paul Rogers:

Mmhmm.

Sarah Taylor:

It Landed in the right spot, I think, when it needed to land. What was that journey like for you?

Paul Rogers:

It was overwhelming. It was a lot. I think no… no one was expecting it. i mean.. There’s a joke in.. you know..  when… when..  Jobu is cycling through the weapons in her hand and like… One of the VFX guys threw an Oscar in there as a joke because it was such a silly idea….

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

And now, you know… if we had known it was actually going to happen, we would not have put that in there because you know…  then it’s like… not cool.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, it’s totally cool.

Paul Rogers:

And we… Yeah, it is kind of funny, but we you know… we just never, ever… And you know..  people would say like, “You know.. you think you’ll get awards?” And I’m like, “This is not that kind of movie. I’m just going to tell you, it’s just not.” There’s a lot of butt plugs and there’s a whole fight where just stuff shoved up at people’s asses. People were eating their boogers in the movie like you know…. It’s just weird. The first thing was that we were just really excited that people were watching it. And it grew pretty slow. It wasn’t like it hit and had like a huge opening weekend. It just kept expanding and growing organically. But I remember the first week it came out, Dan Kwan was in a coffee shop down the street from my office and he was like..  texted us. He was like, “I heard somebody talking about our movie. They’d just seen it. Isn’t that crazy?” The fact that someone in a coffee shop had seen the movie was a big deal for us. 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

And then obviously, it just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And then we were like, “Oh, my God.” And you know… I remember… I don’t have a Twitter, but you can search on Twitter, and I would go and search the title of the movie and just see is anyone talking about it. And there would be six tweets in a day and I’d be like, “Oh, my God, it’s amazing. Six people are talking about the movie.” I remember Ke Quan at one of… not the friends and family, the crew screening, basically, where everyone got…  finally got to see the film. Ke, we were talking and he said, “you know… I think this could really be big. I think it could… could win some Oscars.” And I was like… I kinda gave that same dismissive like, “No, that’s so thats not going to happen, Ke.” And he was right. And now… and now.. now I’m just like, “God. Man, we just need to all learn the lesson to just not doubt Ke, because is.. you know like.. he is …he just knows what’s up.” And he is uhhh… you know… it’s the same thing. That’s why he ended up having to leave Hollywood, was people just kept doubting him and he’s like he’s a fucking amazing actor you know….

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, totally.

Paul Rogers:

So I was like, “God, now I’m in that line of like… assholes that just…doubted.”

Sarah Taylor:

Shut him down.

Paul Rogers:

you know… Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, man.

Paul Rogers:

But he was right and he won an Oscar… like.. That’s crazy. He came back. First film like… after, what, 20, 30 years and came back and won an Oscar.

Sarah Taylor:

It’s amazing. Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

It’s amazing. And I was just really, really excited for the most part for Michelle and Ke and Stephanie and Jamie you know…. Jamie’s a legend, but it was crazy that her first Oscar nomination… oscars… was mine; like… that our first Oscar was together was really strange. It was overwhelming because I don’t… I mean… Editors are not we are not… designed or built for that kind of attention and for that kind of like… interest. And I also realized that we… aren’t built to talk about what we do. We’re just built to do it. And so a lot of my early interviews, they talk about my process and I would just make it up. I’d be like, “This is what I do and da da da.” And then later I’d be like, “That’s not what I do.” I mean… I did that once. 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

I did that on a… for a day; but like…  I was just trying to make it interesting and then I So.. The more I would do them, the more I realized like  I’ve just got to be honest and be like, “Every day it’s different.” you know… Because I get bored if I get… have one process. If I only do dailies and selects one way, I’m going to get bored. And my timeline’s messy. My bins are messy like… you know…  That’s why there’s this timeline floating around from the film. I was like… doing a presentation and I had Zuken and Aashish clean up the timeline for me. And I was like, “I want it to look good.” And they did and they sent it over; and then I was looking at it and I was like, “That is’nt… It is unrecognizable to me.” It’s not me, it’s not the way I work. And I don’t want like…  people out there just getting started to be like, “Oh, I can never be a real editor unless I spend a lot of time being organized.”

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

Because thats like…  being creative is messy and weird And you know…  I can look at a crazy timeline with literally 40 layers of video and a bunch of disabled clips and I’ll be like, “Oh, I know. That this was an idea I had…

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

-here and that might come back, so maybe I’ll keep that on a timeline and just disable it.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

“So I was like, “Just put out the messy one.” And even that messy one is like… half cleaned up because they would clean as I went you know… 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:     

Like if y’a ll saw the real one, I don’t know if I would ever work again. That shit is crazy.

Sarah Taylor:

Well, other editors would appreciate it, because I am definitely one of the messy ones.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah. I should dig up like some of my early… you know.. The act one, the first timeline of that is just insanity.

Sarah Taylor:

What I found really interesting with the whole Oscar thing and you winning… which is Congratulations.

Paul Rogers:

Thank you.

Sarah Taylor:

I’d never seen an editor be shared memes and your speeches from people who are not in the film industry. like.. You became a famous editor. And I was like, “What is happening? This is amazing.” I don’t know if you felt that. I’m sure you have.

Paul Rogers:

A little bit. I mean… I’m not on social media, so it was nice that I could just turn my phone off and-

Sarah Taylor:

You could do it from afar.

Paul Rogers:

I love the stuff about work-life balance, and all the other stuff was not fun and kinda anxiety inducing.

Sarah Taylor:

You taking that opportunity when you were in the limelight to make that statement like, “Well, this kind of thing happens to guys that look like me all the time,” thank you. That was a moment where I feel like you did service to our industry. What made you feel like this was the time to make that.. to say that? Is this something that you are trying to change how our industry is not as diverse as it could be behind the scenes?

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, I think..  it felt very obvious to me because it’s something that, we… in our company at Parallax, we talk about it all the time. And its.. it’s also just obvious when you look around the room at the Oscars or wherever I was you know… At all the other award shows that I got invited to, it was like it was really obvious that it was mostly white men. And I didn’t feel like I was like… breaking news. And it’s something we think about a lot with how how..  we hire and the interns that we bring on and who we’re mentoring and really, a lot of it is just like what kind of projects and stories are we giving our pretty considerable time and energy to …

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

-telling?

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

-right? Because that’s really where we have the most power, is like…  we are storytellers. What stories are we going to tell, are we going to help people tell? And its also like…. I recognize that when I came out here, I went to college, I had no college debt you know…. I got some grants and then my parents paid for my college. And I had a wife who paid all my bills and I could also just walk into a production house and no one would be like, “What are you doing here?”

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, you could use that code and you wouldn’t get kicked out.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah. I just… you know…I look like I belong coz like…  all the other interns were young white guys…

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

-and so I kinda like… just fit into the… you know…  And that’s just not the way it works for everybody. And so.. I can’t be like, “Just do it the way I did it. Just show up to where you want to be and pretend you work there.” 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

You know.. That just doesn’t work. I mean… You know how it is with editors… like.. We don’t go out and go to these big functions a lot. And so I ended up meeting a lot of other editors or former editors. And you know… I was talking to a woman, she was like, “Yeah, I was a picture editor. Loved it. It was my life. I had kids. It became harder. And then I got a divorce and became a single parent and it became impossible and I quit and I became a music editor.” And its like…  that’s also a problem with the fact that we work 12, 14-hour days. 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

Not even just 12 to 14-hour days. The fact that we work 10-hour days is too much. And I know… like… I… I for a long time had the feeling people would be like, “Man, this is… you know… 50 hours a week is a lot.” And I’d be like, huhhh.. you know..  “Come on.”

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

I work 12 hours a… a day…

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

you know… for… 14 hours a day…. like…Just buck up and deal with it.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

It’s a bigger issue like…. It’s really like… if you want… And it’s not just for parents and people with families like… But for me personally, if I go to work, if I start at 9:00, 10- hour day is 9:00 to 7:00, that doesn’t include a lunch break. So let’s throw 30 minutes in for lunch. Drop my kids off at daycare. I go to… get to the office at 9:00. I work til.. 7:30. I drive home. By the time I get home, it’s 8:00. Both my kids are in bed. I’m just going to accept that I just don’t see my kids until the weekends. And then the weekends are recovery. 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

Weekends shouldn’t be recovery. Weekends should be like… we fly into the weekends with a bunch of energy and we do all the stuff that we want to do. But because of the way that we work, we spend a full day recovering and then on Sunday we just do all the shit that we need to do really fast and clean up our house and do-

Sarah Taylor:

Exactly. Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

It’s not a sustainable way of working. And so I want to figure out a way where we can work eight, nine-hour days and still get the work done. Because also, what happens is when you work a 12-hour day, you pace yourself. You’re not working as fast and it’s hard because you’re like, “I’m going to be fucking here all day like….” I’m going to take a ton of breaks. We can do the work in in…-

Sarah Taylor:

Here. Yeah, exactly.

Paul Rogers:

… a reasonable amount of time and we need to figure out a way to got to-

Sarah Taylor:

Got to get another coffee.

Paul Rogers:

… adapt so that the work… its…  our workdays are set up differently for people with different needs. People with different mental health needs, people who are single parents, people who just can’t swing the crazy schedule that we have all just become accustomed to. And not even accustomed. We’re like… thankful for an 11-hour day. We’re thankful for a 10-hour day and that’s not good. I’m excited that people are talking about that. I don’t know what all the answers are. I’m trying to figure it out and my company’s trying. We’re now… we’re… we’re doin… doing our best to try to figure it out. We still have the needs of these clients that have these expectations that are set from decades of overworking us. And so it’s it’s…  a battle sometimes, but it’s worthwhile. And as we’ve all matured and the pandemic helped a lot of just letting us know like, man, you can really have a great life and you can do great work. I did this whole movie during the pandemic. I saw my family all the time. And there would be days where I was like, “Look, Dan, Daniel, I’m tired. I really need to go to the park with my kid. He’s…. he’s 3 years old.” And they’d be like, “Sweet. can we… We’re going to go grab some beers and you know… we’ll throw you a beer from six feet away.” And we hang out in the park. like… that sounds great. It was such a great way to work.

Sarah Taylor:

If we grind all day long, all the time we’re telling stories about life, but we’re not living life. We need to be able to go out there and live life. Right?

Paul Rogers:

I totally agree. Yeah. And the more… the more the life you live, the better the stories you can tell, is exactly what you’re saying. But I also think that like… it’s a diversity issue in the sense of the more interesting and diverse and… and… varied the people you surround yourself with, the more interesting and real the stories that you tell, and the… the ways that you can tell stories are going to be much better. And so… it’s like if you make a gumbo with one ingredient, it’s going to taste like that one thing. I don’t know if that metaphor makes any sense.

Sarah Taylor:

We need to have more flavor.

Paul Rogers:

We need to have more flavor. Right.

Sarah Taylor:

How can we as individuals in the sys… in the system that we’re in right now help make a shift, especially people who have more privilege? What are we able to do to help?

Paul Rogers:

I don’t know if it’s possible to just shed your privilege, but it’s definitely possible to re-weaponize it for a different… And.. and retool it and use it. It’s definitely something that we think about and talk about a lot. And its.. you know…  it seems… it just seems so obvious.

Sarah Taylor:

I agree.

Paul Rogers:

you know.. its like… It’s crazy that people were like, “Wow, he said that.” I’m like, “Y’all aren’t saying this every day?” I think just… it’s so minimal. Just be deliberate and think about what you’re doing.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, totally.

Paul Rogers:

I think that’s kinda… the genesis of it. Just think about what you’re doing. Can we do that?

Sarah Taylor:

One last question is, what’s coming up next? Is there anything that we can watch out for?

Paul Rogers:

I just finished a film called The Legend of Ochi, directed by Isaiah Saxon. He’s another first-time director. And uhmm… it stars Willem Dafoe and Wolfhard and Emily Watson and and Helena Zengel. and it’s this kinda cool… It’s a little bit of a throwback and that… it’s about a girl who learns to speak to animals, but it’s like… all animatronics and people in… in… puppetry and-

Sarah Taylor:

Cool.

Paul Rogers:

so…its… you know… It’s got that little old… old school vibe to it, which I love. And then I’m working on a film with Kahlil Joseph, who’s my partner at Parallax, his first feature called Black News, which is based on an art installation, an urban project that he has had ongoing for the last couple of years. And that’s a big fun one because it’s a its…a  ton of editors and it’s years of edited material that we’re also pulling in from all kinds of editors with varying levels of ex… experience. And so thats… we’re still working on that one. so.. and then you know… maybe a little break. We’ll see.

Sarah Taylor:

Well, I hope you can take that break and I look forward to all this great stuff coming out. And yeah, thanks again so much.

Paul Rogers:

Thank you for having me. It was great.

Sarah Taylor:

Thank you so much for joining us today. And a big thanks goes out to Paul for taking the time to sit with me. Special thanks goes to Allison Dowler and Kim Taggart, CCE. The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall; additional ADR recording by Andrea Rush. Original music created by Chad Blain and Soundstripe. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. The CCE is proud to support HireBIPOC. HireBIPOC is the definitive and ubiquitous industry-wide roster of Canadian BIPOC creatives and crew working in screen-based industries. Check out hirebipoc.ca to hire your next group or create a profile and get hired.

Speaker 4:

The CCE is a non-profit organization, with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member, please visit our website, www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info

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Credits

A special thanks goes to

Kim McTaggart, CCE

Alison Dowler

Catie Disabato

Akash Nandakumar

Hosted and Produced by

Sarah Taylor

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Original Music by

Chad Blain

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Sponsored by

DGC Alberta

en_CAEN

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