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The Editors Cut

Episode 081 – Joy Ride with Nena Erb, ACE

Episode 081 - Joy Ride with Nena Erb, ACE

In today?s episode Nena Erb, ACE joins Sarah Taylor to chat about her editing work on the hilarious film JOY RIDE.

From first-time director Adele Lim (screenwriter of Raya and the Last Dragon, Crazy Rich Asians), JOY RIDE follows four Asian-American friends on a trip across Asia in search of one of their birth mothers, who end up on the journey of a lifetime.

You can check out the trailer here.

The film stars Oscar nominee Stephanie Hsu, Critics Choice Award nominee Ashley Park, Sherry Cola, and Sabrina Wu. The film premiered at SXSW in 2023 to critical acclaim, now boasting a perfect score of 100% on Rotten Tomatoes.

NenaErbACE2021

Nena Erb, ACE, is a picture editor based in Los Angeles. Raised in an Asian immigrant family, Nena’s father wanted her to be a doctor and her mother wanted her to be a pianist with the LA Philharmonic. Nena wanted to be Andy Warhol.

Armed with an art degree, a friend brought her into the industry and she started working in various capacities in production. It was her stint as an associate producer that opened her eyes to the impact of editing. It combined her love of photography and storytelling into one and she was hooked. Since then, Nena has edited projects for Warner Brothers, Apple, HBO, and others.

In 2016, she received an Emmy award on HBO’s documentary series PROJECT GREENLIGHT. In addition, she has received three ACE Eddie nominations; two for her work on HBO’s comedy-drama series INSECURE and the third for CW’s acclaimed series CRAZY EX-GIRLFRIEND. Nena received her second Emmy award in 2020 for her work on season 4 of INSECURE and a third Emmy nomination in 2022 for the final season. She recently finished JOY RIDE directed by Adele Lim for Lionsgate. Her parents no longer ask if she’d reconsider medical school.

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The Editor’s Cut – Episode 081 – Joy Ride with Nena Erb, ACE?

Nena Erb, ACE:

It is important to see yourself represented and to see women that are so like braved, they’re not afraid to be themselves. It was a good project for me. It kind of like gave me permission to speak my mind more. I have a tendency to like think something, and then, I count to 10. And by then, it’s like, who cares? So I don’t even say it, but now, I’m like, “No, I’m not gonna count to 10. I’m just going to say it.”

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Oh, I love that. Yeah, we should all just say what we need to say. This is great. Hello and welcome to The Editor’s Cut. I’m your host, Sarah Taylor. We would like to point out that the lands on which we have created this podcast and that many of you may be listening to us from are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we are on ancestral territory, that has long served as a place where Indigenous peoples have lived, met, and interacted. We honor, respect, and recognize these nations that have never relinquished their rights or sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many contributions, and the concerns that impact Indigenous individuals and communities. Land acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.

Today, I bring to you an interview with past guest, Nena Erb, ACE. We sit down and chat all things Joy Ride. If you haven’t had a chance to watch this film, please do check it out. It is hilarious and also very heartwarming. For those who don’t know Nena, in 2016, she received an Emmy Award for HBO’s documentary series, Project Greenlight. In addition, she has received three ACE Eddie nominations, two for her work on the HBO Comedy Series, Insecure, and the third for the CWS acclaim series, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. Nena received her second Emmy award in 2021 for her work on season four of Insecure and a third Emmy nomination in 2022 for the final season. Nena’s parents no longer ask her if she should reconsider medical school. Without further ado, here is Nena.

Speaker 3:

And action.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

This is The Editor’s Cut.

Speaker 4:

A CCE podcast.

Speaker 5:

Exploring.

Speaker 6:

Exploring.

Speaker 7:

Exploring the art.

Speaker 4:

Of picture editing.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Welcome back to The Editor’s Cut, Nena.

Nena Erb, ACE:

So good to be here. Thank you for having me again.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

I’m so glad to chat more about what you’ve been up to over the last, I think we decided, three years like, Oh, it’s very exciting.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah. Yeah, it’s been a while.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

So just to catch the listeners up, for the people that maybe haven’t listened to your previous episode, can you just give us a bit of a Cole’s Notes on how you made your way to Hollywood?

Nena Erb, ACE:

I have an art degree. I did not go to film school. And afterwards, of course, what do you do with that, right? So my friend’s like, “Hey, come work with me in the art department.” And that’s kind of how I got into the business. You know? And I jumped around a lot, did a lot of different positions, until I finally found editing. And once I discovered what editing was, it just completely, the whole world just opened up. And I? yeah, was like I felt like I had come home in a way.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

I feel that. So how long has it been now since you’ve started editing?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Oh my gosh. I was thinking about that. 20.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

I’m with you. I’m 20 as well, so yeah. That’s awesome.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah, I’m like, wow, time flew.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

It really does, doesn’t it? When you’re doing something that you love, it just flies by. Yeah.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

So today, I wanted to talk to you about the wonderful film, Joy Ride, which it got me in stitches, and I cried. And there’s oh, it was so wonderful. You did a wonderful job. I want to know, how did you get involved with Joy Ride? And what were your first impressions when you were given the script?

Nena Erb, ACE:

I was on my last season of Insecure, and you know, as always, when you’re coming to an end of a project, you’re like, “Okay, let’s see what else is out there.” And my agents brought me several different projects, and I kind of was looking at all of them. And I said no to many, and Joy Ride was one that I said no to, not knowing anything about the script or anything about the filmmakers. It was just like, “Eh, no, it’s comedy. Move on.” Because I wanted to do drama, right? That was my goal. “Let’s do a drama. It’s been several years, so I need to do a drama.” And so, um and so the whole, you know, I just said no to a bunch of stuff. And after a while, they came back, and they’re like, “You know, I think the producers really want you to just read the script. No pressure. Just read it.” I was like, “All right. I am reading other scripts, so I’ll read this one too.”

And yeah, I remember I was on the Sony lot. I was reading the script and taking a little break and waiting for, I think I was waiting to go back for notes or something. And I’m reading it and I’m laughing, and of course, if you’re walking by, and you don’t know what’s happening, you must think, you know, I’m losing my mind. I’m just laughing, um, like loudly. And then, it came to the end, and I was sobbing and crying uncontrollably. And I’m sure, again, people were probably like, “Oh, that’s an overreaction from someone messing up your coffee or something.” But, yeah, it grabbed me. It just resonated so deeply with me for so many reasons.

And I ran back into my edit bay, and I was like, “All right, let?s take a? I need a meeting. I need to meet these people.” Because it was the dirtiest but funniest script I’ve ever read. And then, just the way it hits you at the end, I was not expecting that. And plus, I’m also very good at compartmentalizing, when I’m watching dailies, to really be objective. So I did not expect for that to grab me the way it did and to make me that emotional, so.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Amazing. From reading the script initially to the final film, were there any major changes that happened in the script?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah. Yeah, there were. You know, my first cut was two and a half hours long. Because there?s ,you know, a lot of improv, and a lot of jokes, and jokes that led into other jokes. And so, I just wanted to put everything in there, so we can have a version where the words are on their feet, right? And so, that’s what I had. And then, after working with the director and the producers, you know, we very dramatically started cutting things out. And, and as expected, because no comedy would be two and a half hours long. So yeah, some of the change scenes that we lost were a scene between Lolo and Kat, scene between Lolo and Baron, you know, where he’s kind of letting her know that she?s, she has to be the calm one.

Like she’s usually the one that’s like very chaotic, and so, she needs to kind of find her inner peace and do something that makes her happy versus, you know, makes Audrey happy. And the other scene with Kat was when they’re both sharing their saki or soju and kind of realizing through their conversations that they’re more similar than not, right? And so, it was kind of like their bonding scene, the way that Deadeye and Audrey had their bonding scene were poker. So those were some of the scenes that we lost. But I had say the biggest difference is the slapping game, at the gay bar.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yes.

Nena Erb, ACE:

It was much, much longer. It was like we had seen the two guys that started, they go through their game, and then, you know, Kat and Lolo come up and they’re eyeing each other. And the first time they do their toss out their numbers, I don’t even know what you call that, but yeah, so it was a tie. And so, they both had to slap each other. So they did that, and then they do it again, it was another tie, so they had to slap each other again, and then, again. And then, finally, Kat wins, and then, she just you know, kind of socks it to her, one really, really good punch.

And that was a version that was in the script. You know, we had tried that. We have that definitely. And then, we tried it with much more of their improv, because they, they really went at it. They went off the improv script. They did the improv jokes that the writers wrote, and then, they just kept going. And they were goading each other on. It was hilarious, but too long. And so you know, we’re trying to find what’s funniest and what feels the best pacing wise. And so, we’ve gone through a lot of different iterations of that scene. And um, finally, towards the end, I remember just thinking, “What if they just beat the crap out of each other? What if there’s no dialogue, no tie, they just get in there and then, they start hitting each other?” And they’re like, “Well, if you can make that happen.” And of course, after I say it, I’m like, “Oh, can I make that happen? Do I have what it takes? Haha in the material, in the dailies, to make this happen?”

Um and it was a challenge. I was kind of kicking myself, I’ll be honest, after you know, after I was trying it, because they never shot it where it was a ton of different hits to each other. So I had the ones that I had, and you know, there weren’t that many takes. It was a very complicated scene at the club. So yeah, I had a lack of options. I didn’t have a lot of options to work with, in terms of variations of them slapping each other. So a lot of it was cheated by either removing frames or adding frames and sound design to make it seem like it escalated to the final like punch. You know so yeah, so that was definitely very different, and I’m relieved that I was able to carry it off. And next time, I will think twice before offering a suggestion. Hahaha?

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

That’s a good tip for editors out there listening. But sometimes, we challenge ourselves in the best way, because it makes like a really great scene. And that scene was fantastic. It made me laugh so hard. You mentioned improv a few times in your last statement, so you got to work with so many hilarious actresses and actors. I could tell that there was gonna be, you dealt with a lot of improv. So how did you like you did your first cut, you put everything in, but how did you maybe decide, in the end, what jokes could stay? How did you, you know, maybe try to end a joke of their improv before? Cause you know they always just keep going, keep going. I’ve dealt with that too. So how did you handle the improv?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Oh, yeah. There were definitely a lot of improvs that just kept rolling. You know they build off the improv, off the improv, and then, they keep building. Um and you know, most of the time, I just go with my gut. It sounds simply oversimplified, but it’s really how… Yeah, it’s what I trust. I trust my gut. If it’s making me laugh, great. If I feel like it’s going on too long, I’ll just find a good place to cut. Point gray are geniuses. I mean they’re so, like well-versed in comedy. And the way that they shot this improv, I honestly you know, I’ve worked on a lot of comedies, they shoot improv all kinds of different ways, but they had it so planned out that all the improv was in their singles. And it was just genius. It was so smart, because you can make it work easily, you know, rather than if it’s on a two shot or slide and you know.

And every once in a while, there’s a you know over the shoulder, and that’s fine. I figured out ways to get around that for continuity. But? yeah, so they did it that way. They cross shot, so it’s not like, “Okay, we’re on one side. You do your improv line. Then we turn around for the reaction.” The reactions are in the moment, and it was just so, so great um. So they made it very easy to try different jokes. At the end of the day, I rank my jokes. If it made me laugh really hard, then it’s a five or a six. If it didn’t make me laugh that hard, it’s like a one or two. And then, sometimes, if it was like, didn’t even make the chart, I just put okay, hahaha, in the locator notes.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

I love it. That’s great. Yeah.

Nena Erb, ACE:

So yeah, I had a way of tracking it. I had a way of making up a lot of different versions. So for each scene that had improvs, there was probably like, 10 more versions, each version with different improvs and different combinations of improvs.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

So would you like then you’d cut the scene that was scripted, and then, you would do, say, 10 different versions of that same scene, so you could drop it into the cut if you needed to see? Is that kind of how you…

Nena Erb, ACE:

Kind of, kind of. Yeah, I would have the version that I like best, and then, I would kind of subclip you know the joke out, but a little padding on either side. And basically, what I would do then is like, okay, I would swap out another joke, and sometimes, you have to you know, change the going in and the entrance, and the exit to make it work, because people are suddenly in different positions, whatnot. Um so yeah, I had a lot of different versions of that. I realized, in the beginning, I was cutting and thinking like, “Oh my gosh, I’m moving so slow. I can’t believe I’m like, only getting through like X number of scenes.” Then I realized, “Wait a minute, I’ve actually cut like 45 minutes of content, because of all the different improvs, so I’m not actually moving that slow.”

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah that?s, that’s the most, I feel like that’s the most challenging part with comedy when you have actors that are hope that are good at improv. Um and yeah, I did a I did a feature recently, and our first cut was two and a half hours as well. And it was just like, “What jokes do we cut?” But on that note, I know that there’s a few jokes in this film I recently cut was called Hey, Victor and um, that still make me laugh today. So are there ones that just still hit you like they did when you first heard them?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Oh my gosh, there are so many different ones. I may have to think about this.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

I sprung it on you.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah, we’ll have to come back.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Who was the team that worked with you with end post? Did you have some assistance? And what was your day-to-day process like?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah. Yeah. I was fortunate and I had a whole team, first assistant, second assistant, and a PA. And I got really lucky. I found some really great people that really knew what they were doing, and it was a good team. It was a good team, and it was all female, which is great. And then, of course, if I needed like a male ADR, I would make sure they went around the building to see who was available and willing to do our temp ADR. And fortunately, we were at Pivotal Post and EPS, and there were other people around, so it was never a problem. But yeah, they were great. A lot of them were new to me, because I think the last time we talked, I was on Insecure, and my assistant, who received the Emmy along with me, she’s now editing. So I’m very, very excited for her, and so you know.

And so, obviously, I was like, “You go do your editing, I’ll find a different team.” and um so yeah so this was a whole new team to me. And learning everyone’s preferences and how they work was very fascinating. In the beginning, I would talk to them and see, “Okay, what are you really into?” And I found out that Tori, my first, was really into sound design.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Hmm great perfect

Nena Erb, ACE:

So I know, okay, the hard sound design, give it to her. I actually gave her all the sound design, and then, I found out that our second, Melissa Khan, was great at After Effects and TempVFX. So she got all that, and then, we had a little hiatus. I don’t know if you heard about that, but we had a hiatus and then came back for additional photography. And at that point, Melissa had already been got a job on another movie, so she couldn’t come back. So I had to find a new second. And we hired Joya Caruso. Fortunately, she was also good at VFX, so it was like, somehow, I came up with the perfect team.

Because editors care about sound design tremendously, but we don’t have the time to really dig into it. And I also try my best to have good TempVFX, but again, I can’t do a lot of it in the Avid. So it’s nice when I have an assistant that knows how to use After Effects or Photoshop or whatever other tools they have to make these temps happen. So yeah, so it was a good team. I got really lucky.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Sounds like a dream team. I love it. That’s great. You mentioned you took a break, and so, and so how much of like, were you I’m assuming you were cutting as they were filming, you took a break and came back and started cutting as they were filming again?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

How long after photography did you have to get to your like editor’s cut and stuff like that?

Nena Erb, ACE:

We started September 21st in 2021, and then, we took our hiatus like April 8th, I think it was that week. We had gotten the film to the second preview, and then, realized, “Okay, we need X, Y and Z to kind of you know to take the film into the direction that we want it to go in.” And so, the original idea was like, “Oh, I wish to do like a short six week break.” But then, of course, as you know, Ashley and Stephanie, Sherry, they’re all very, very busy. They’re busy actors. And Sabrina was touring, doing her standup.

So we had to, for schedule-wise, push it back a little bit, and then, we reconvened in November of 2022. And then, locked picture, I want to say like mid-January, mid-January, yeah. Yeah. Because we had another a third preview. And so, it was a lot, but additional photography, it was only for like, a handful of scenes. It wasn’t a lot. So I only got one day, after last day of dailies to get my editor’s cut together, because a lot of bulk of the film was not changed. So just the new material. So we had to get it together very quickly. And then, it was watching it down from the beginning to make sure that, “With the reshoots, are we repeating ourselves in the beginning? Or is something else not making sense now?” So it was a fascinating process.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

So you did three previews. So from those previews, what kind of stuff did you take into consideration in the edit?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Most of it was always for clarity. I think a lot of the issues that we deal with, it doesn’t matter what movie, usually, what we learn from previews is that, you know, the filmmakers, myself included, might’ve been a little too close to material. And so, there are things that we may have lost, that need to go back in, you know, to kinda really flesh out the setup or for clarity purposes. And, and sometimes, you know, you notice, I’m sure you’ve experienced this as an editor yourself, you see like, the smallest little nuance in the performance, and you know the difference, but is that coming across as clearly to the audience, right?

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah, so that’s always a question that we end up answering a lot.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

What would you say was the most challenging scene to cut?

Nena Erb, ACE:

All the set pieces, all of them. No, the one on the train with the drugs.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

That was so good.

Nena Erb, ACE:

And the one with all the?our main four with the basketball players at the hotel, that big long, yeah, I don’t even know what you call that, the orgy? But that’s not really an orgy for everybody. So yeah, it’s not really the right word for it.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah, they’re all individual moments, sexual moments. I don’t know what you’d call it.

Nena Erb, ACE:

So yeah, so those two were probably the hardest and not for any reason other than you have to make them funny. And for the drug scene, what I realized was, you know, my first cut, just following the script, not even adding any extras, it was too long. It was like two minutes, um and we had to cut down. And that was down to a minute, and it still just didn’t feel quite right. And then, finally, we’re like, “Why don’t we speed it up?” I was like, “Oh, that sounds kind of cheesy, but why don’t we all try.” So yeah, I added some speed ramps to the images, and that kind of made it funnier, in a very you know, childish kind of way, which I’m all for.

And and that was really helpful too, because as I’m cutting down, I’m realizing I’m making the shots shorter and shorter, and so, sometimes so short that you don’t really get the full action of what they’re doing. And so, that tends to kind of like make it a little more murky and unclear what’s happening. So using the speed ramps, you can see the full motion of you know, someone snorting coke or putting coke up someone else’s behind.  So there were definitely funnier shots too that we had to lose, because it didn’t help tell the story. They were just funny little asides.

Once we had a decent cut, the challenge was finding music. We went through so many different songs. It got to a point where I think… Toko Nagata is our music supervisor. I was like, “Toko, you have to be patient with me. We’re going to go through a hundred songs with just this one thing, so so you know just bear with me.” And she was great about… She’s such a good sport, just always finding stuff. We tried classical, like Blue Danube, and then, we’ve tried instrumental, we try we had the composer, Nathan Michael David, compose some stuff to one of the earlier cuts. And it was like, “Well, that’s not quite the right vibe, because we’re looking for something super frantic, but funny.” And then, ideally, it’s not just a driving beat, it has to have accents for certain moments, when Sabrina’s putting something up Kat’s butt.

So ? yeah, it was a lot of experimentation. And finally, Toko said, “Try this one. It’s a little quirky and a little off kilter, but maybe it’ll work.” It’s Burnt Rice by Shawn Wasabi. And it was perfect. It was completely off kilter, not what you expect to go with that scene. And yet, somehow it worked, and it had these great accents and stops and starts, that just like really helped elevate that piece for me.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah, so when you finally found the song that fit, did you then go in and cut to those moments in the song? Or did you manipulate the song to work with what you had already cut?

Nena Erb, ACE:

I made the song to work with whatever we cut, yeah and that was always fun.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

You’re like, “And I’ll move this here and I’ll move that here.” Yeah, that’s awesome.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And what was great was that we had a music editor too. We have two music editors, Jeff and Emily Kwong, and they were great. They’re such good sports. I would kick them stuff all the time and say, “Can you turn this around like ASAP?” And they would do it.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

I’ve never worked with a music editor, so I’m curious, and maybe other people would want to know too, so would you do your like rough cut of the track to fit what you needed? So if maybe it would needed to be 30 seconds, and this one thing had to happen at the 15 second work, you do your rough cut of it and then, ship it to them, and then, they would make it musically sound amazing?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes and no. For my editor’s cut, they hadn’t come on yet, so I did all my temp. And then, once we started doing notes and if we wanted to switch out songs, you know because once you’re in notes, you don’t have time to stop down for music editing, because it’s very time consuming trying to make certain things fit where you want it to fit versus where musically it wants to be. So that’s usually when I would send them that scene and say, “Hey, we want to try these five different songs. Can you just make it work?”

And so, they would kind of like listen to the songs and pick the right parts, and that was what I loved about them. And I think a lot of music editors are the same way. They don’t think that music is just laying down a track. I think they all listen to the whole thing and pick the right parts of the lyrics, pick the right parts of you know the chorus, the verse, and kind of put it together in their own little recipe, very similar to the way an editor would. So I just really appreciated how they work, because that’s what they did. 

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah, that sounds amazing. I might have to get myself a music editor on my next show. Anyway, what was the most enjoyable scene to cut?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Honestly, I enjoy the entire thing, but I think there’s one scene that was super, super special to me. And it’s a very simple scene, just um Audrey getting dressed the next morning, Lolo’s putting on her you know makeup and earrings and whatnot. They’re getting ready to go to the adoption agency. So it’s just a conversation, simple, innocuous conversation between the two of them, where Audrey kind of like bears her soul and talks about what it was like to be adopted. And she kind of wonders if her life would’ve been different had she not been.

And?and it really resonated with me, because my mom was adopted. And so, I remember having a lot of different conversations with her about like you know you know, “Do you know why you were given up?” And she was always wondering herself, too. And what that means, what being adopted means. You’re the outsider kind of in your family, that basically chose you. So it’s a whole, it?s a lot to unpack, right? Yeah. So the whole thing, belonging, identity, all of that, that was stuff that I talked to my mom about quite extensively. So when I saw that scene, I was like, “Oh, I’m going to really enjoy cutting this.” And I did.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

And I think that’s why Joy Ride also resonates with a lot of people out there. There’s not a lot of stories representing this ? this idea of growing up in America and then going to “where you’re from,” and that whole thing. And then, yeah, discovering this whole other side of you that… And we don’t get to see people unpack that on screen, and I think that?s? it’s so important. Yeah, I think Joy Ride did a good job at that.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. At South by Southwest, I expected people to laugh, and kind of sniffle at the emotional parts. What I didn’t expect was, during the Q&A, many adoptees came up and they just were very emotional about the whole thing, seeing their story unfold the way that it did. And and it was so touching you know. One of the adoptees, what she was talking about was so heartfelt that she came up to the stage, and Ashley part gave her a hug. And they had exchanged some words. No one knows what was said, but it was just such a sweet moment. I think everybody was crying.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

This is, and those are the moments where you’re like, “This is why we make 10 versions of a scene. This is why we do what we do, right??

Nena Erb, ACE:

Exactly.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Oh, that’s really great to hear that you got to see that feedback in real like in action and oh, that?s beautiful. Love it. I love it.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Made it all worth it. 

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Totally. Yeah. You have done a lot of TV, from what I have seen and what we talked about before. So was this one of your first major films? Or had you done like feature film work before?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah, but they’re mostly um smaller independents. This was probably my first studio feature. So there are different things to learn about the studio system versus independence, where you’re just kind of making it up as you go along in the studio to give notes.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yes. So what was the biggest change in your workflow that you had to do, maybe coming from the TV world to the feature world?

Nena Erb, ACE:

It’s very interesting. it’s um you know I think, from the outside looking in, you would think that features have all the time in the world, right. I think, um in television, if you’re doing a half hour, you have two days after last day of dailies. If you’re doing a one hour, you have four days, ideally three to four days after last day of dailies, to get your editor’s cut together. Um well, as you know, my first cut was two and a half hours, and I only had four days after last day of dailies to get that together, to really polish the entire everything and score the entire thing. So yeah, in that sense, I had less time than I would if I was on a TV show um, but in the grand scheme of things, you have more time after that to experiment, because you have 10 weeks with a director. On TV, you have two to four days, if you’re lucky, you know um, and then, you have maybe two weeks with a producer who’s a showrunner on TV shows.

And um this time, it was like, I think the producers came in around week six. Or no, they came in pretty early. They came in at week five of director’s cut, because our director just felt like she was ready to show it. And so, yeah, they came in, and so, they had quite a bit of time um, normally, I’m not really sure if there’s a standard, in terms of like how many weeks producers get, but yeah, they came in at week five during a director’s cut. And then, just kind of, from there to the end, they were very, very involved and a part of the collaborative process, so they had a lot of time versus TV.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Totally. So you still have to go quick at the beginning, and then, you get to have time to really massage your notes and go do all that stuff after the fact.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yeah, and you get a lot of time to experiment like, “What would happen if we just take out this complete storyline? you know Yeah, what would happen if we lost this entire scene?” you know And then, previews would be the biggest difference between the two. Films, you preview. In TV, you don’t really do that.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

No, no. You mentioned that you came to Canada to do the sound mix, and so, how has that experience like? Often in TV, do you have the time in TV to go and actually do a sound mix? Is that usually afforded?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Okay. So what was the difference coming to Canada to be part of… Well, not that it matters that it’s Canada, but I like that it’s Canada. What was your time like?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Oh, I love that it was in Vancouver. It’s the first time I’ve ever been there, and um you know the city is great. There’s so much good food. And then, the weather was pretty, it was cold, but it wasn’t wasn’t like blizzard cold. We only had a snowstorm for a few days that I was there. It was very easy to get around. People were so nice. It was bizarre. It was like, coming from LA, you’re just used to people honking and driving crazy on the road. And over there, I think I was there with Tori, my first, and after the first few days, I looked at her, we’re at dinner, I’m like, “Am I imagining this or no one honks here? Have you heard of anyone honk?” And she’s like, “No, I haven’t.” I was like, “Okay, okay, so no one’s honking.” So I think, at the last week we were there, I heard one person honk.

I was very excited. But that’s just my observation of Vancouver. But the sound mix itself, I usually try to make time for it on TV shows, but oftentimes, you’re doing dailies, so then, that just means your days are longer, if you want to go do your sound mix. For Joy Ride, it was such a luxury to have three weeks to work on your mix. you know and you’re there for ADR, you’re there for a large amount of time, and it’s nice. It’s nice to be able to have that time and not feel rushed like, and feel like you may miss something afterwards. Because if you did, that’s okay. We’ll be back next week to do it again.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Wow, that’s such a novel experience for me. I don’t know if it’s just a Canada thing or an Alberta thing, but I’ve been to only one sound mix in my whole career. And it was amazing. And I was like, “This is great.” And I was like, “I should do this all of the time,” but it’s just never afforded in the schedule. And so, unless I decide to just go on my own, which I could, but then, I’m always on something else. But yeah, for the people that haven’t experienced that, what is it like? You like sit there and you suggest sound effects, kind of, if you don’t mind, just a little process of what it’s like to be on the sound stage.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Um you know Some editors wanna be there, when they’re building it all together, but I like to just give them time to do their thing. And I’ll come back and give notes, ideally, before the director and before the producers. For TV, I definitely get in there for at least a day before the producers are there for playback, just because I’m looking for things that they may not be concerned about you know. And same thing for the movies. You go there, you watch. For features, because they work in reels, they’ll say, “Okay, we’re going to work on reel one today, day one, reel one.” So they’ll play it. You watch it, you kind of make notes and either time code or like film and feet, you know frames and feet and stuff, um and yeah, you just kind of listen for things. Is the entire line of dialogue clear? Is the sound effect right? Is it too loud? Is it not loud enough? You know how does music sound in combination with all of it you know?

Yeah, it’s a lot of that. And sometimes, you’ll have a great sound effect, but then like, in certain places, it sounds like a production mistake right. And so, you’ll catch those moments. It’s like, “Okay, so at this frame here, can you just lift out that little whatever it might be? Because it sounds like someone dropped a hammer versus what it’s supposed to sound like.” So yeah, it is really, really interesting how things like that come across. And so, I love the process. 

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Now, I’m going to have to see what project I can sneak in on, because yeah, I think there’s times where I’ll listen to the audio after and be like, “Oh, man.” I remember going to a screening of one show I did. It was a big launch, episode one played, and I was like, “Ah, the music’s too loud.” So yeah, maybe I should be allowed to do it. Yeah, I’m gonna, I?m gonna to advocate for myself to go to the sound mix. That’s what’s going to happen.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes, yes. No, I highly recommend it, because yeah, there’s nothing worse yeah, than watching something that’s already done and you’re just cringing, because the music is too loud or not loud enough. you know Yeah, or the ADR sounds like ADR, right?

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Nena Erb, ACE:

That’s one thing I look for a lot in the mix. It’s like, “Hey, can we make sure that blends a little bit better? Can we dirty that up, so it’s all sounds the same?” Because ADR has a tendency to sound very clean.

Sarah Taylor, CCE :

Yes, for sure. Yeah. Okay. Well, I’m going to take those tips into my next thing. Was there anything from this film that you learned that you’re taking  onto your next projects?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes. I have definitely learned a better way to organize myself when I have a lot of different options and all you know of a scene, because naturally, I do like different versions to myself, even without improvisation. But I think I hadn’t figured out a really efficient way to manage that until now. And honestly, I’m sure it’ll probably progress and evolve and change as things go on. But having to do that on a feature is, is like it’s it’s a lot, you know cause every scene, there’s something. And so, you have like 120 scenes, and it within that, are all these different versions. So so yeah, so I had to be really organized and quick about it, because when you’re working with them, they’re in the room. You wanna quickly be able to access that version and then, make changes and still keep it all organized.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

A hundred percent. Yeah. like okay. Take it from this bin and adding it to this. Yeah. Oh, I can see how that could get very complicated and wrong sequences could be dropped in. So yeah, organization is such a huge thing in the editing world and how like I find it’s constantly evolving for me as well. And having an assistant who’s really good at organizing is like so, so lovely. I love them when they’re organized. Yes. So anyway, shout out to my assistant, Blair, who does the best organization ever. Yay, Blair. So what what’s coming up next for you? Or what are you working on now? And what can people go watch?

Nena Erb, ACE:

Um I’m on a Marvel project right now. Um yeah, unfortunately, I can’t say too much about it.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

That’s okay.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Or like the Navy SEALs’ gonna crash through my ceiling and take me away.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah like something really very dramatic will happen.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Right. But hopefully, you know it’ll be ready to come out sometime in 2024, provided that hopefully the strike ends soon, we can all go back to work.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yeah. So what’s been happening for you right now with the strike?

Nena Erb, ACE:

I’m not working right now. I’m just enjoying a little time off. Yeah. I was very fortunate to be working up until the end of July. So yeah, time off for me is a welcome thing right now, so but I know that it’s been really hard for a lot of people in this industry. So as terrible as it is, I mean we all know that it’s difficult, but it’s the right thing to do to strike.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Hopefully it doesn’t last too much longer, and we can get back to creating really funny, hilarious movies like Joy Ride that also impact people and have themselves being seen on screen, which is so important. So um yes. So thank you for all of the amazing work you’ve done on Joy Ride. Anybody out there, please go watch this film. You can rent it now online. I’m sure there’s other places you can stream it from, but oh my gosh, it’s so funny. So go check it out. Is there any last nuggets that you want to share with us today, Nena? Oh, we got to circle back to your funniest joke. Circle back to the joke.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Funniest joke? I think it’s the, “You’re thinking about a penis.”

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Hahaha, yes.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Or the chubby bunny thing.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Yes. Oh, okay. Very good.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Yes, yeah. And the most obscure jokes are, there’s so many that are very culturally specific. But yeah but yeah, the chubby bunny one is definitely one that gets me every time still.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Oh, I love it. Can I ask you, what was it like for you, as an Asian American, getting to work on this film that was pretty much a full cast of Asian people?

Nena Erb, ACE:

It was weird, I’ll be very honest with you. I don’t think I’ve done many projects for like where I see Asians everywhere. It’s all over my dailies. It’s like, “What?” Usually, it’s like you have one or two. You know um, And so, it was refreshing. It was? It was great. It was really, really great. Um and I hope that happens more, because you know I think, for not just Asians, but for everybody, cause it’s important to see yourself represented and to see women that are so like braved to do whatever you know to say things, they’re not afraid to be themselves and it was just a really, it was a good project for me. It kind of like gave me permission to speak my mind more. Um I have a tendency to like think something, and then, I count to 10. And by then, it’s like, who cares? So I don’t even say it, but now, I’m like, “No, I’m not gonna count to 10. I’m just going to say it.”

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Oh, I love that. That’s amazing. Yeah. We should all just say what we need to say. This is great. Oh, that’s wonderful. Well, thank you for sharing your journey on Joy Ride. It was quite fun. And I hope that we can maybe connect and talk about your next project when it’s all out and ready to go.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I love talking to you. You’re amazing.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Great. Thank you so much. Okay. Have a good one.

Nena Erb, ACE:

Thanks.

Sarah Taylor, CCE:

Thanks. Bye. Thanks so much for joining us today. And a big thanks goes to Nena, for taking the time to sit with me. Special thanks goes to Alison Dower and Kim McTaggart at CCE. The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall, additional ADR recording by Andrea Rush. Original music created by Chad Blain and Soundstripe. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. 

 

The CCE is proud to support CREATIVES EMPOWERED. CREATIVES EMPOWERED is a nonprofit collective of artists and creatives. They are Black, Indigenous, and people of color empowering each other as an allied community. They are film and TV, media and arts professionals from emerging to established based in Western Canada. They’re the first and only organization of its kind in Alberta. CREATIVES EMPOWERED is inspired by and embodies what is truly possible when racialized talent are empowered to thrive.

Speaker 8: 

The CCE is a nonprofit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member, please visit our website, www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

Abonnez-vous là où vous écoutez vos balados

Que voulez-vous entendre sur L'art du montage?

Veuillez nous envoyer un courriel en mentionnant les sujets que vous aimeriez que nous abordions, ou les monteurs.euses dont vous aimeriez entendre parler, à :

Crédits

Un grand Merci à

Kimberlee McTaggart, CCE

Alison Dowler

Xin Gu

Hosted and Produced by

Sarah Taylor

Design sonore du générique d'ouverture

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixé et masterisé par

Tony Bao

Musique originale par

Chad Blain

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Catégories
L'art du montage

Episode 16: SPECIAL EDITION: LES MONTEURS À L?AFFICHE: Round table of family stories

CCE_podcast_TABLE_RONDE_LADM16

Épisode 16 :
ÉDITION SPÉCIALE : LES MONTEURS À L’AFFICHE Table ronde des histoires de famille

Dans ce nouvel épisode, nous vous proposons une table ronde sur le thème “Des histoires de famille”, qui avait été présentée au Cinéma Moderne, à Montréal le 5 novembre 2022, dans le cadre du festival "Les monteurs à l’affiche".

Les Monteurs à l'affiche - Roundtable family sotries

Depuis 2016, "Les monteurs à l’affiche" présente un événement annuel visant à mettre en lumière le travail des artisans du montage et à partager avec le public une part des défis rencontrés à cette étape cruciale de la création cinématographique.

Pour cette édition, en partenariat avec le Labdoc et Tënk, le comité organisateur avait invité cinq monteurs et monteuses pour discuter de leur travail sur des œuvres documentaires qui portent sur la famille. Modérée par Isabela Motta Pincowsca et Anne-Gabrielle Lebrun Harpin, cette table ronde est une occasion unique de réfléchir au lien familial qui existe entre les réalisateurs/réalisatrices et leur sujet et à la manière dont il teinte l’intimité créative dans leur collaboration avec le monteur ou la monteuse.

Tous ces films sont disponibles sur plusieurs plateformes telles que Tënk, NFB. Liens ci-dessous.

Une femme, ma mère, de Claude Demers

Les lettres de ma mère, de Serge Giguère

Babushka, de Kristina Wagenbauer

Pinocchio, de André-Line Beauparlant

Le Petit Jésus, de André-Line Beauparlant

Les Rose, Félix Rose

Bonne écoute!

Écoutez maintenant

Abonnez-vous là où vous écoutez vos balados

Que voulez-vous entendre sur L'art du montage?

Veuillez nous envoyer un courriel en mentionnant les sujets que vous aimeriez que nous abordions, ou les monteurs.euses dont vous aimeriez entendre parler, à :

Crédits

Un grand Merci à

Michel Giroux

Catherine Legault

Natalie Lamoureux

Xi Feng

Sophie Leblond

Marie-Pier Sevigny

Annie Jean, CCE

Claude Collins

Les Studios MELS

Charles-Alexandre Décoste

Leonardo Lamela

Maud Le Chevallier

Audrey Sylvestre

Animatrice du balado

Catherine Legault

Modératrices de la table ronde

Isabela Motta Pincowsca and Anne-Gabrielle Lebrun Harpin

Preneuse de son de la table ronde

Marie-Pier Sevigny

Montage

Pauline Decroix

Design sonore du générique d'ouverture

Jane Tattersall, adapté en version française par Pauline Decroix

Mixé et masterisé par

Tony Bao

Musique offerte par

Commandité par

Catégories
The Editors Cut

Episode 080 – Framing Agnes with Cecilio Guillermo A.S. Escobar & Brooke Stern Sebold

The Editor's Cut - Episode 80

Episode 080 - Framing Agnes with Cecilio Guillermo A.S. Escobar & Brooke Stern Sebold

This episode is a conversation with Brooke Stern Sebold and Cecilio Escobar, the editors behind the genre-blending and award-winning FRAMING AGNES.

This episode was recorded virtually on June 21, 2022.

FRAMING AGNES won the 2022 Sundance NEXT Audience Award and the NEXT Innovator Award, and recently screened at Hot Docs. This empowering and stylish documentary explores the legacy and impact that one trans woman left from the 1960s and onwards. 

With moderator Maureen Grant, this episode will dive into the intricate layers and structure of this innovative hybrid documentary.

This episode was generously sponsored by Integral Artists, IATSE 891, AQTIS 514.

Integral Artists Logo CCE Sponsor
IATSE 2018 Sponsor Event logo
AQTIS 514 IATSE sponsor logo

Cecilio Guillermo Escobar is a video artist, editor, and technician who works and lives in Toronto. He is an original member of the Toronto Queer Film Festival and works as their Technical Media Director. His recent work as Editor on Chase Joynt’s documentary FRAMING AGNES premiered at Sundance 2022. The film won the NEXT Innovator Award and the Audience Award: NEXT at the festival. His work focuses on QTBIPOC stories that push the boundaries of documentary.

Brooke Stern Sebold Headshot

Brooke Stern Sebold (they/she) is a nonbinary filmmaker whose work investigates gender and identity in both doc and narrative spaces. Brooke co-produced and edited the feature documentary FRAMING AGNES, which premiered at Sundance in 2022, winning both the NEXT Audience Award and Innovator Award. Brooke also cut and co-produced FRAMING AGNES the short, which premiered at Tribeca and won the Experimental Award at Outfest. In 2007, Brooke co-directed their first feature doc, RED WITHOUT BLUE, which won the Audience Award at Slamdance and the Jury Award at Frameline and screened at 150+ festivals worldwide. Brooke's narrative shorts have won awards at Palm Springs ShortsFest and the Florida Film Festival, and Brooke was the recipient of the Cine Golden Eagle Award for Excellence in Directing. When Brooke isn't writing and pitching shows, they’re editing the Emmy nominated series, BRIEF BUT SPECTACULAR, which airs weekly on PBS NewsHour. Brooke received their BA from Brown University and their MFA from Columbia University. Brooke grew up in the Sonoran desert and loves crystals, doggies, tiramisu and she or they pronouns.

Maureen Grant Headshot

​​Maureen Grant brings a background in visual art, film production, and an MA in Media Studies to her work as an editor for film and television. She is a five-time nominee of the Canadian Cinema Editors Awards, and is an alumnus of the Berlinale Talents 2019 and the 2013 Canadian Film Centre Editors Lab. She has worked with many notable directors on projects that have received international acclaim. PERCY was the top film in Canada on Apple TV iTunes. PYEWACKET premiered at TIFF 2017 and ranked amongst the year’s top horror films internationally. Recent work includes the Canadian Screen Award (CSA) nominated web series QUERENCIA, the CSA winning sketch comedy series TALLBOYZ, the Peacock / Family musical comedy series TAKE NOTE, and the Lifetime movie STOLEN BY THEIR FATHER. Forthcoming work includes Director V.T. Nayani’s feature film THIS PLACE, starring Kawennáhere Devery Jacobs and Priya Guns.

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The Editor?s Cut – Episode 030 – ?What is Anti-Oppression? With Tenniel Brown?

Sarah Taylor [00:00:01]

Hello and welcome to The Editor?s Cut. I’m your host Sarah Taylor. At the CCE, we began our journey of self education with Anti-Oppression training in 2019. It was invaluable for us as it provided us with tools to assess how we as an organization could set a course of action to root our unconscious and systematic bias in our operations. This training is now a permanent part of our budget so future board members and volunteers can continue this work, and equity can be part of the fabric of our organization. We are offering a Lunch and Learn Introduction To Anti Oppressive Communication with Tenniel Brown on July 27. Today I’m lucky to be able to sit down with Tenniel Brown and discuss what Anti-Oppressive training is and what we can expect from this webinar. Tenniel Brown is a passionate anti-racist anti oppression and mental health speaker dedicated to improving the experiences of marginalized people in all institutional settings. She is the founder of the Centre For Anti-Oppressive Communication which specializes in providing anti oppressive, trauma-informed counseling, clinical supervision and organizational consulting, as well as customized workshops training and team retreats. I’m joined with Tenniel Brown, she is the founder of the Centre For Anti-Oppressive Communication based in Toronto. And we just want to have a little conversation about why anti oppression work is important in this and all days but specifically right now. So can you just tell us a little bit about your background and why you started the Center For Anti-Oppressive Communication.

Tenniel Brown [00:01:41]

My background is as a psychotherapist. So I spent I’ve spent many many years working with individuals and couples and families and groups helping them to access more of their well-being by addressing different mental health issues specifically trauma. One of the things that I specialize in addressing is racialized trauma. But also trauma that comes from folks that have experienced different types of oppression. And I think for most people that are called to this type of work it’s quite personal for me right. So often when you don’t see the work that you know needs to happen in the community taking place you create it. And so that was me. You know I think I saw that there was a need for organizations to have somebody come in and not just talk about diversity inclusion but talk about what happens when certain identities have power and that unbalance of power and how to actually address that in our communication. I knew that out in the community there were therapists and social workers that were wanting to do better work. You know work in the best practice way with clients that are black, racialized, queer, and trans, and had nowhere to go to get supervision and support. And finally I knew personally that there were so many folks that when they were ready to do therapy work they needed to see someone sitting across the office that looked like them or had a very similar lived experience and they just were not going to come unless that was the case. So all these things I knew was happening and nobody was doing it. And I said someone’s got to do something and that was me. I think what needs to come out of what’s happened in June is for folks to see black professionals and black community in in the in sort of like the the brilliance of what we do and it’s not uncommon that in many cases where we don’t see ourselves we create it. So yeah that was the spirit of and I think that when I started the organization I knew that it was important for there to be a place where folks from those different backgrounds could come and get that support and information. So it’s a real passion of mine. It is my baby and it’s so beautiful to see folks wanting this information during this time.

Sarah Taylor [00:04:01]

Yeah so important. Can you tell us what Anti-Oppression means and what someone can expect by taking an anti oppressive workshop?

Tenniel Brown [00:04:10]

Sure absolutely. So when you sort of break down the word anti oppression anti oppressive practice we take a look at that anti part and essentially that that just means opposition to oppression and then the practice part. So AOP? the practice part pertains to the context in which you are practicing opposition to oppression. So you can apply an anti oppressive lens to just about anything. And I’ve had the opportunity to work with organizations like Pride Toronto and work with your curators to apply an anti-oppressive lens to the way they do event organizing. I have applied an anti oppressive lens to the way I do therapy and clinical supervision with other therapists. You can apply an anti oppressive lens to teaching. You can apply it to student advising, you can apply it to just about anything. I’ve been working with fitness professionals looking at applying an anti oppressive lens to the way that they support folks that are on their fitness journey. So so it’s about looking at whatever practice whatever context you are working in and using that platform to be able to oppose oppression and all of its forms. So that’s essentially what it is.

Sarah Taylor [00:05:29]

And so when someone takes courses like anti oppressive communication course or participates in your courses what can they expect to be talking about or learning?

Tenniel Brown [00:05:37]

Absolutely so I think one of the most important things is to sort of pull back a little bit of you know the cover on this because I think anti oppressive language is its own language. It’s like Spanish. And you see so many people getting themselves into some rather serious trouble these days because they actually don’t know the language they don’t understand? in some ways the harm of some of the things that they’re doing and saying the deep harm of that. You get a lot of people who don’t really know how to talk about these issues. And so you go into a shame spiral and you just don’t talk. You just get very quiet and I always argue that you know the silence piece is a part of how we got ourselves into this trouble as a human society in the first place. So what I offer is something for everybody. I think over the years what folks have said to me is is even somebody who’s maybe got a social work background and knows about anti oppressive practice when they come to one of my trainings they find that they are moved further along in their application of that perspective around ?OK, well what does this mean when I’m interacting with somebody right here in a one on one context.? Other people that are completely brand new have never had the chance to learn any of this language or understand any of these concepts have said over the years that they felt like they left with a really good sense of what this topic is. But not just that practical skills. I’m all about practical skills. I want to offer things that folks can use tomorrow today and the next day and my mission is also for folks to leave his training and talk about it. Tell a friend, tell a colleague, tell a family member, and feel equipped to be able to engage in these conversations. So when someone is saying or doing something problematic, you have this confidence in the skills to be able to interpret what’s going on there and to be able to talk to them and to be able to address it. The other thing that I do is I couch everything that I do in my trainings in a self care and team care perspective. And I think this is very important. We have to look after our emotions. We have to look after ourselves and we have to look after each other. I always say you could be as anti oppressive as you want but if you haven’t had any lunch? if you haven’t eaten anything? you’re not good.

Sarah Taylor [00:07:57]

You’ve got the hangries!

Tenniel Brown [00:07:59]

Trust me, Anti-Oppressive work requires patience. It requires empathy. It requires compassion and self compassion. You will fall down a lot and I find you know and I talk a lot about cancel culture and don’t get me wrong really that could be its own podcast.

Sarah Taylor [00:08:19]

Totally. Especially in this industry.

Tenniel Brown [00:08:22]

Look we need to talk about this and I get why certain people are being canceled for sure. And yet as someone who does this work I recognize that I’m so thankful I wasn’t canceled because over the years I’ve done and said things before I knew before I took a course like this before I had an opportunity to learn what was problematic about my lens. I’m so thankful that I was able to make those mistakes in a safe environment and actually benefit from that and grow. So people get a safe environment to learn language and understand what is going on, what is oppression, if oppression is so bad why don’t we just stop this. Well I unpack that for folks. Why is this so complicated and why doesn’t this just stop. And then I provide practical skills for folks to be able to apply this to their lives and their communication. I think the other thing that I think folks get is not just sort of a general whatever, you’ll find that I’m really interested in applying it to film editors and what it is that you do on a regular basis and looking at how you can use your platform to be able to actually oppose oppression.

Sarah Taylor [00:09:31]

Yeah well it’s like it’s huge I know for myself we did anti oppression workshop as a board for the CCE. I’m in an interracial marriage and so I thought ?Oh I know a lot.? Like I’ve been unpacking this stuff for a while and understanding in my own way. But also like kind of like how do I say it to my white uncle who is racist like how do I approach that. And by taking that one course, like you said I got so much more understanding of where people might come from and the language and I could approach it not by just being angry because anytime I’d hear anything I was like ?You’re talking about my husband, you’re talking about my child! This is not OK!? And so it made a huge impact on me and I felt like I kind of knew some stuff but I realized that there was so much more to learn. And I think I’m still learning and it’s opened up even conversations I’ve had with my husband and my in-laws? and so I think people who are in my situation are like ?no I’m cool I got I’m married to so-and-so or I have my best friend or whatever.? You grew up in your lens and there’s way more to learn and unpack.

Tenniel Brown [00:10:41]

Absolutely. Absolutely it’s so true. And I always say that absolutely positively nobody gets a pass on this.

Sarah Taylor [00:10:48]

100 percent.

Tenniel Brown [00:10:49]

At all. You know myself as someone who identifies as a black fem queer woman, you know folks would be like well you know you of course you couldn?t oppress. And it’s like yes we are all susceptible to experiencing oppression and we are all oppressors. So I have aspects of my identity that allow me to have privilege. And the thing about this is that if you’re not aware of those things that’s how you harm people that’s how you engage in micro aggressions. You know what I mean? That’s how you you know get striking up a conversation with someone about your latest renovation in your house when this person is still renting and doesn’t even have access. These are the types of things that you’re never protected from. Right. Like you’re not protected from that in a certain way. So it’s really important to remember that.

Sarah Taylor [00:11:40]

Where should someone start if they’re like feeling overwhelmed they’re like wow I know that I need to make this change. I’ve seen all this information now on social media and I’m saying all the wrong things and like you said I’m just going to be quiet which is not the right thing to do. So where do they go and what should they focus on first to just like get into this mindset of making these changes?

Tenniel Brown [00:12:02]

That’s a great question. And what I would say is education. Not a coincidence right? So of course you know joining with you know your organization to offer this to the community because I think that’s step number one. I think we do need to have good information about? you need to educate yourself. I would say that it’s a really important first step to really listen, and I find even when you have more information and you have more training it even improves the way that you can listen because what you find is when you don’t have that knowledge there’s certain things that are sort of prevent you from even being open. So I find the training and the skills and the confidence that you get from doing the course like this allows you to even listen deeper right and understand more and I think that that’s step number one. I think that once? but don’t stay there! Because I think a lot of people oh I’m listening but really it’s just their guilt and shame. So yeah they’re still not doing anything but once you’ve had the chance to listen you now can start thinking more about your platform and I think that’s one of the most important thing for your listeners to know that if it’s like well I’m not a social worker I’m not a therapist what’s this got to do with me it’s like it has everything to do with you. You have a platform as a film editor and it’s important for you to acknowledge that there are big ways and small ways that you can make a difference. And we all have a responsibility. What’s happened in this world since COVID what’s happened in this world since June is we can no longer close our eyes to this. We have to look at this and all the years that we have stayed silent on this has been what’s caused the problem. So the reality is is that we all are called to use our platform to be able to address this to look around the room and be like who isn’t here? To look around your history of the films that you and different projects you’ve been involved in and being like how many of these people, how many of these stories featured stories that were outside of what we usually see? Right. And looking at the ways that you can use your platform and your influence to be able to make a change, so we’re all called to do that I don’t care if you’re a child care worker or a housekeeper do some working at a gas station, it literally doesn’t matter we’re all a part of this human society. We all have some sort of platform and so we all have a responsibility to do something. You know Sarah one of my favorite slogans that’s come out of the protest is ?Silence is Violence.? I love that one because I know what happens when people don’t have education and knowledge. They go into a shame cycle they go into a guilt cycle and they go into fear and you know what happens there? Shh. And you know what, that doesn’t help anybody at all. So I recognize that these are difficult things for us to unpack but we all have a responsibility to use whatever platform we have to make a difference. So starting by educating yourself, listening a lot, and then that’s going to help you to be more open to what you can do. And then looking at your platform whether that be personal or professional to make a change.

Sarah Taylor [00:15:20]

That was perfect. Yeah. That’s huge. And even since I took my training and even just since I’ve done my own inner work I noticed like I wouldn’t pick certain shots anymore or there’ll be things in my edit where I’m like ?that’s a stereotype? or ?No that’s not going to work. We can’t do that we can’t have that.? And so I think if everybody’s doing that then what we’re seeing on screen can start changing.

Tenniel Brown [00:15:45]

Absolutely. Absolutely and there’s these you know there’s there’s big ways and then there’s little ways like you describe. So it’s it is about really curating your lens, right and making sure that you’re seeing more and I think training like this just helps you to really open up your lens. So you’re not just seeing directly what’s in front of you work to the side of you but it’s more of like a panoramic view which you folks really need in the work that you do.

Sarah Taylor [00:16:09]

100 percent. Yeah. Well I hope that our membership joins us. I know we’ve already been getting people RSVPing which is very exciting. On July 27 2020 to learn and to unpack and to take part and just hopefully we can continue to do stuff with you and just keep educating and making the changes we can make.

Tenniel Brown [00:16:28]

Yeah. Join us. Join us. Don’t hesitate folks. Be a part of this. I’m really looking forward to working with everybody. And you know what we’re gonna have fun. I know these topics are really heavy but we’re gonna have some fun and we’re really going to connect with each other as a community so I look forward to meeting everybody at this training.

Sarah Taylor [00:16:46]

Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today and I look forward to seeing you on the 27th and continuing my journey. So thank you for doing this for us and thank you for sharing your knowledge and your experience with the world. So thank you so much.

Tenniel Brown [00:16:59]

You’re so welcome. Thanks for having me.

Sarah Taylor [00:17:03]

Thank you so much for joining us today. And a big thank you goes to Tenniel Brown and a special thanks to Maureen Grant and Jane MacRae. If you’d like to connect with Tenniel, you can find her on Instagram @TennielBrown. If you’d like to bring Tenniel into your organization to learn more about anti oppressive work, you can check out her website at brownconsulting.com. I look forward to learning more from Tenniel on July 27 2020 at the CCE Lunch and Learn I hope to see you there. The CCE has been supporting BIPOC TV and FILM. BIPOC TV and FILM is a grassroots organization and collective of black, indigenous, and people of colour in Canada’s TV and film industry. From writers, directors, producers, and actors, to editors, crew members, and executives. Their members are a mix of emerging, mid-level, and established industry professionals. BIPOC TV and FILM is dedicated to increasing the representation of BIPOC both in front and behind the camera. If you would like to donate to BIPOC TV and FILM please head to their website at bipoctvandfilm.com. The CCE is taking steps to build a more equitable ecosystem within our industry and we encourage our members to participate in any way they can. 

The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall. Additional ADR recording by Andrea Rusch. Original music provided by Chad Blain. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends to tune in. Til next time I’m your host Sarah Taylor.

Outtro

The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member please visit our website www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

Abonnez-vous là où vous écoutez vos balados

Que voulez-vous entendre sur L'art du montage?

Veuillez nous envoyer un courriel en mentionnant les sujets que vous aimeriez que nous abordions, ou les monteurs.euses dont vous aimeriez entendre parler, à :

Crédits

Un grand Merci à

Kimberlee McTaggart, CCE

Alison Dowler

Hosted and Produced by

Sarah Taylor

Design sonore du générique d'ouverture

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixé et masterisé par

Tony Bao

Musique originale par

Chad Blain

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Catégories
L'art du montage

Episode 015: In conversation around the film Big Giant Wave

CCE_podcast_Episode0015_COMME-UNE-VAGUE_LADM15

Épisode 15 : En conversation autour du film COMME UNE VAGUE

Une conversation avec Marie-Julie Dallaire et Louis-Martin Paradis, animée par Isabelle Malenfant, CCE.

CCE_podcast_COMME-UNE-VAGUE_LADM15_Public
Photo Credit: Xi Feng

Dans ce nouvel épisode, nous sommes ravis de partager avec vous la rencontre qui a eu lieu au Cinéma Public de Montréal en octobre 2022 avec l'équipe du film COMME UNE VAGUE.

La réalisatrice, Marie-Julie Dallaire, et le monteur, Louis-Martin Paradis, ont partagé avec le public leur fascinante aventure lors de la post-production de ce passionnant documentaire.

Bonne écoute!

Écoutez maintenant

Abonnez-vous là où vous écoutez vos balados

Que voulez-vous entendre sur L'art du montage?

Veuillez nous envoyer un courriel en mentionnant les sujets que vous aimeriez que nous abordions, ou les monteurs.euses dont vous aimeriez entendre parler, à :

Crédits

Un grand Merci à

Marie-Julie Dallaire

Louis-Martin Paradis

Isabelle Malenfant, CCE

Cinéma Public

Guillaume Potvin

Catherine Legault

Les Studios MELS

Maud Le Chevallier

Audrey Sylvestre

Animatrices

Isabelle Malenfant, CCE (épisode introduit par Catherine Legault)

Montage

Pauline Decroix

Design sonore du générique d'ouverture

Jane Tattersall, adapté en version française par Pauline Decroix

Mixé et masterisé par

Tony Bao

Musique offerte par

Commandité par

Catégories
The Editors Cut

Episode 078 – Everything Everywhere All at Once with Paul Rogers

The Editor's Cut - Episode 078: Everything Everywhere All at Once with Paul Rogers

Episode 078 - Everything Everywhere All at Once with Paul Rogers

In this episode Sarah Taylor sits down with Paul Rogers.

This episode is sponsored by DGC Alberta.

Paul Rogers - TEC 078
The Editor's Cut - Episode 078: Everything Everywhere All at Once with Paul Rogers

Paul Rogers began his professional career in 2007 editing documentary films for public television in Alabama, winning 4 Emmy Awards. He made the jump to Los Angeles in 2013 and kicked off a career in music videos with the DANIELS? directed ‘Turn Down For What? and further collaborated with DANIELS on the short films ?Interesting Ball? and ?Boat Dad? as well as one half of the duo, Daniel Scheinert, on the A24 feature film ‘The Death of Dick Long,’ which premiered at Sundance in 2018. He dipped back into documentaries in 2020 with ?You Cannot Kill David Arquette,? an official SXSW selection and winner of the Adobe Editing Award. His next film is Isaiah Saxon’s debut feature ‘The Legend of Ochi.’ Along with feature films, he has edited for the Eric Andre Show, Kendrick Lamar, Flying Lotus, Haim, and Thundercat among others. Paul has also collaborated extensively with director Kahlil Joseph on projects such as ?Lemonade? for Beyonce, ?Process? for Sampha, and Joseph’s most recent work ‘BLK NWS.? Paul is a partner in the editorial company PARALLAX located in Los Angeles.

Sarah and Paul discuss his career journey and how he approached the editing behind Everything Everywhere All At Once.

The Editor's Cut - Episode 078: Everything Everywhere All at Once with Paul Rogers

Everything Everywhere All At Once Trailer:

 
 
This episode was generously sponsored by DGC Alberta
 

The short film that inspired Paul to go to LA!

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The Editor?s Cut – Episode 078 – Everything Everywhere All at Once with Paul Rogers

 Sarah Taylor: 

This episode was generously sponsored by the Directors Guild of Canada, Alberta District Council. If you reside in the province of Alberta and are interested in editing, contact the DGC Alberta to learn more.

Paul Rogers:

We wanted to stay in the wides as much as we could, and we wanted to not be cutting around when we didn’t know what was happening. And a big way of leveling that playing field between us, indie action film and big blockbuster film, was time-remapping and splitting the screen and combining takes; and making a punch that may not have been thrown quite with the force it needed, speed ramping it, and making it feel better. And when someone flies back, slowing them down in midair so that there’s more of a weight, and then speeding it up right as they hit the ground so that you feel that impact. These are all just little reasons why Premiere worked out really well.

Sarah Taylor:

Hello and welcome to The Editor’s Cut. I’m your host, Sarah Taylor. We would like to point out that the lands on which we have created this podcast and that many of you may be listening to us from, are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we are on ancestral territory that has long served as a place where Indigenous peoples have lived, met and interacted. We honor, respect and recognize these nations that have never relinquished their rights or sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many contributions and the concerns that impact Indigenous individuals and communities. Land acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.

Today, I bring to you an interview with Paul Rogers, the Academy Award-winning editor for Everything Everywhere All At Once. We discuss Paul’s journey from Alabama to Hollywood, what it was like working with the Daniels on Everything Everywhere All At Once, and Paul’s philosophies in and outside the edit suite. Without further ado, I bring you Paul Rogers.

Speaker 3:

And action.

Sarah Taylor:

This is The Editor’s Cut.

Speaker 4:

A CCE podcast.

Speaker 3:

Exploring, exploring, exploring the art-

Speaker 4:

Of picture editing.

Sarah Taylor:

Paul, thank you so much for joining us on The Editor’s Cut today. I’m very excited to chat with you all things editing.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah. Thanks for having me. It’s always fun.

Sarah Taylor:

Excellent. Yeah, I know. Editors talking with editors is like-

Paul Rogers:

I know.

Sarah Taylor:

I can just do it for days.

Paul Rogers:

I know. It’s funny. I was just talking to somebody the other day about this about the American Cinema Editors, which I guess is the American version of y’all, we? 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

-when we get together. I’m not a member, but I was invited to do some stuff this year, it’s almost more awkward because you’re like, “Oh, my God.” These people not only speak the same language as me, but like? but they understand the work in a way that’s different and they can see the both the good parts and the cracks and the flaws in what I do you know more than most people, who are just like, “Wow, that was? that was  cool. That was crazy. I’m very impressed.” They’re like, “Yeah, well, but that one like.. . one  part was a little funky.”

Sarah Taylor:

Like, “What were you doing there?” No, well, I don’t have anything critical to say about the work you’ve done on Everything Everywhere All At Once. But before we start talking about that specific film, because I think you’ve probably talked about it a lot as of recent, I’m sure; but I want to know, how did you get to where you are today? What was the thing that drew you to editing? And a? just a little bit of your backstory. What’s your origin story?

Paul Rogers:

I started in high school. I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, and I went to Homewood High School. And there was a guy in my high school who I had kinda observed. He had what I guess I would call a bit of a racket, in that he would? we would all get assigned these essays on you know? the Spanish War of whatever, and he would be like, “I’m going to make a video. I’m going to make a movie about it.” And then he would go and make a kung fu movie-

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, my gosh.

Paul Rogers:

… and submit it. But it would be so… He put so much time and effort into it that the teacher would be like, “Eh, well,  you know? you tried hard, so here’s a B?B-plus.” And I was like, “That seems cool.” So he? we had like a similar social studies project and he umm.. you know.. was making, obviously, a mafia movie about whatever. And uhh.. so I just joined up and we you know? spent all night at my dad’s office just running around and having you know pretend fights and shooting pretend guns. And then uhh? I was like, “This is some of the most fun I’ve ever had.” And so we just started making a lot of films together. His name was Peter Hastings. And? and eventually, I got to a point, this is all in high school, where I was like, “I wonder if I could do this for a living.” I started looking into film schools and talked to my parents. And to my surprise, they were supportive. And I went? ended up going to College of Santa Fe, which is a small little undergrad school in New Mexico, and uhh? loved it. It was beautiful. Uhh? and they had a start? first year or two of the school, we had to shoot and edit everything on 16.

Sarah Taylor:

Mmm.. Nice.

Paul Rogers:

And so I was on a steam beck you know.. umm… cutting film and.. and?liked it; but it was you know? it’s intimidating and it’s hard. It’s hard work. And then by the time they let us start using Final Cut and Avid, you know I had… It’s its? nice because coming to Final Cut or Avid from a year or two of editing on film is like a revelation-

 

Sarah Taylor:

Mmhmm?

Paul Rogers:

?and it’s incredible and you realize just how amazing they are. Whereas I? you know.. I grew up with computers. I was making… This stuff we were working on in high school, I was using Windows Movie Maker or whatever-

Sarah Taylor:

Wow..

 

Paul Rogers:

?so it just kinda seemed natural. Of course, this is how it works. So you know? learning on film really gave me an appreciation for what non-linear editing is, you know? for what it? what it can do for you, and .. and how amazing it is. And I found myself in school, in college, directing and writing and shooting and acting and just every time I would do one of those, I would kinda just be waiting to get to the edit so I could play, so I could really have the fun that I wanted to have. And it took me a while to realize that I could do that for other people. So I remember the first guy, his name is Zeeshan McCaughney. He asked me to cut his film that he had shot. And I was like, “You can do that? You can do other people’s stuff?” And so I did it. It was amazing and it was really fun. He was really happy. And I just started doing that in school and cutting stuff for other people and realized that it was? that  was where I was happiest. And so  got really lucky; got out of college and got a job at public television, cutting documentaries in Alabama, and did that for you know? even years and kinda thought I was settling in you know.. I? I like?I was 24, got married, got a dog, got a house,like.. you know? had a good job with a retirement plan, and was like, “All right. Now we’ll just do this forever and then I’ll get old and die.” And I was at work doing what you do at a job sometimes, which is kinda like screwing around on the internet and watching other stuff and not working. And I watched a film called Until The Quiet Comes by a director named Kahlil Joseph. Just watched it again and again and then was just floored by it. And I went home and told my wife, Becky, “I think I have to quit my job and I have to find these people and I have to move to LA and? and-

Sarah Taylor:

Wow.

Paul Rogers:

… uproot our lives.” And she was like, “Uhh.. Okay. No, thank you.” Uhhh.. But she you know? was like, “Look, you go out there and and? give it a shot and I’m gonna stay here and keep my job and keep our house, and I? you know? keep the the.. bank account, checking account with a little bit of money in it.” Because I went out there at age 29 and became an unpaid intern and was just working for free.

Sarah Taylor:

Wow.

Paul Rogers:

So you know.. I foun? found Khalil’s editor, Luke Lynch, who cut that with him, and took him out for drinks and you know? got some advice. And when I came out here, I never asked for a job and I never asked for work or never asked for anything except for advice. And so he just gave me advice and he invited me to uhmm.. Absolutely Productions, which is where Tim and Eric, you know? the comedy duo, it’s their company. And he was cutting The Eric Andre Show, season one? Season two, maybe. And he just gave me the code for the door of the production company.

Sarah Taylor:

Wow.

Paul Rogers:

So I just started showing up every morning, just dialing in the code. And I would you know sweep the floors or organize the cereal boxes or whatever, just make myself useful. And one day, one of the producers there was like, “You’re an intern, right?” And I was like, “Yeah, sure.” He was like, “Did you fill your paperwork out?” I was like, “Nope.” He was like, “Okay, here’s your internship paperwork.” So that’s how I became an intern.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, my goodness.

Paul Rogers:

I just slid in.

Sarah Taylor:

You got the code and you organized that cereal.

Paul Rogers:

I just showed up. I think in general, I had had interns at my old job. I knew what a good intern was; just someone who doesn’t walk around asking people for things to do. They just do stuff that needs to be done. And it doesn’t matter if it’s like, you know?  “Do you want me to organize this footage?” or this was back when tapes were still a thing, too. I’ll organize your tapes, I’ll label your hard drives. I will go to the grocery store and I’ll go pick up lunch you know? and then I got lucky enough to intern on season two, assist on season three, and then I was cutting on season four of The Eric Andre Show. And in between there, I was you know? meeting people. I met Dan and Daniel, roller skating in Glendale and cut the music video with them.

Sarah Taylor:

Were you good at roller skating and then that was like, “Oh, this guy’s cool”?

Paul Rogers:

Yeah. I can do it.

Sarah Taylor:

I can do it.

Paul Rogers:

I stayed upright-

Sarah Taylor:

Perfect.

Paul Rogers:

… for the most part. But yeah, so that? it wasn’t super linear, like I interned and then I assisted and then I edited and then that was it. That was my big break. Because I was doing stuff on the side and so was Luke. And and? Luke and I ended up becoming partners with Kahlil and with Graham Zeller in a company that was called Parallax. and yeah, I met Dan and Daniel roller skating. We hung out. It was great. I was like, “These are good people.” I volunteered at a kids’ camp that they had going on where they teach kids how to make music videos.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, that’s cool.

Paul Rogers:

And they saw you know? some of my editing that I did on the kids’ music videos and were like you know?, “Hey, we have this silly music video called Turn Down For What, if you want to… We’ve never worked with an editor, so maybe you could give it a shot.” And so I did and it worked out well and we just kept working together. We did Interesting Ball, a short film, and a couple other things. And so you know? I just kinda like? tried to follow my interests and and? surround myself with good people who were also doing good work and try to stay away from the bad people who were doing good work or… you know? I definitely you know? I prefer good people who do bad work, to bad people who do good work.

Sarah Taylor:

I would have to agree with that. 

Paul Rogers:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

How did you determine, like decipher that when you first got to L.A.? Like who was right? Who was good for you?

Paul Rogers:

It was really just gut feeling. Like  I met with Luke at a bar the first night or maybe the second night I flew into L.A., because I flew out really just to take Luke out for drinks. I flew out here, I took him out for drinks, I flew home. And then I?  I was like, “It seems like he’s a nice guy. I can make this work.” About six months later, I got my stuff in order and I drove out-

Sarah Taylor:

Wow.

Paul Rogers:

… in my CRV. and uhmm.. but yeah, it was really just Luke was a good guy. He was nice and he was straightforward and honest and it didn’t feel like he was bullshitting me and he wasn’t trying to get free work out of me. He would pay me when he could and you know? but a lot of that stuff, like I said, was… you know.. A music video, you get paid like 200 bucks.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

 

Paul Rogers:

It was nothing. And most of it, that was back in the day when legally you could be an unpaid intern. So I worked for free for a long time and my wife was just paying my bills.

Sarah Taylor:

Thanks, Becky.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, totally. And then even when she moved out, she got to keep her job and go remote, which back then was not really a thing. So yeah and then Dan and Daniel were just… I mean? You can see it when you see them in interviews. They’re just really solid, great, wonderful people. So it wasnt any kinda? I didn’t have any kind of checklist. It was just like? if I vibed, if I got a good feeling, then great. If I got a weird feeling, then no, thank you.

Sarah Taylor:

I think that’s a hard thing for people you know?  younger in their career to listen to that intuition and that gut. I know a lot of that plays into all you do in the edit suite as well, but you need to have that trust with the people you’re working with.

Paul Rogers:

I think so. And I think it’s also like if you find yourself trying to convince yourself to do something, to take a project, or trying to convince yourself to work with somebody, well, you know? coming up with reasons, probably not a good idea. Something in your gut is telling you not to and then your brain’s trying to convince your gut to do it you know.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, I’ve had many experiences like that and I’m always like-

Paul Rogers:

Me, too.

Sarah Taylor:

… “Remember that time when this happened before?”

Paul Rogers:

yeah I still do it. I’m still like, “Well, it’s a good opportunity and I don’t know, it could be nice.”

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, but then it’s always a challenge.

Paul Rogers:

I never? I have never proven my gut wrong. Every single time I’ve done that, I’ve been like, “I fu? I knew it. I knew this was going to end.” But I just I? convinced myself it was going to be fine and it’s never worked out.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. So how long was it from the time that you you know? took out Luke for drinks to then having? now you have a company, you’ve worked together, you’re doing Oscar winning films? How long have you yeah I guess how long have you been in L.A.?

Paul Rogers:

I’ve been in L.A… Well, 2013, July, 2013, so it’s coming up on 10 years. But like I said, I had you know? seven years of editing experience professionally in Alabama. Although, I think it paid off. It didn’t pay off in terms of real… Nobody cared what I did in Alabama. Its In L.A., it’s very much, “What have you done with people that I know?”

Sarah Taylor:

Yes.

Paul Rogers:

And what have you done that I’ve seen? And I hadn’t done any of that. It was all stuff that’s just airing you know? locally. So? I had the work ethic, I think, and the ability to work with people. And I was beginning to develop a kind of… I don’t know if you would say a style, but just a sensibility, I guess. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Mmhmm?

 

Paul Rogers:

And so I think that helped me kinda accelerate here a little bit faster than if I’d come out here when I was 23 you know?. Yeah. And it was 10 years and then all of a sudden, to be honest.

I did a film in, what was that, 2016, called The Death of Dick Long. It was my first feature. It was really fun. It was with Daniel Scheiner. That wasn’t like the big break. Then all of a sudden, I was doing features and just meeting with all kinds of directors. It was a great experience and it was you know? one of the most fun edits I’ve ever done. But its not you know?. it was really like Everything Everywhere that all of a sudden it just hit so hard and and worldwide. I think all of us who worked on it were just kinda blown away. And our lives changed overnight, professionally, at least.

Sarah Taylor:

Wow. Well, I’d like to talk about Everything Everywhere All At Once. You know? you  mentioned that you met the Daniels rollerskating, which I think is awesome. Led you to music videos, short films. What was that initial conversation when they said, “Hey, we have this film”? How did did that go?

Paul Rogers:

They had made a film called Swiss Army Man with an editor named Matt Hannam.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, yeah. He’s Canadian.

Paul Rogers:

He’s Canadian, right?

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

He’s become a great friend. He’s got just an incredible like CV. He’s got so many great films and worked with so many great filmmakers. So they told me that they were working on Everything Everywhere and they invited me to Dan Kwan’s back kinda his back office, which basically is his converted garage. And they just said they wanted to walk through the script, that they had been doing this with people. They had been talking through the script with people because it helps them in the writing process to talk it out and then to ask questions afterwards.

And so I sat back there with John Wong, the producer, and they just acted it out. They weren’t jumping around and wearing outfits or anything, but they were like they would just talk it through. “Okay, this happens, this happens. And then he comes up and the dad says this.” And then they would say it. And it took two hours or something. It was a long time just sitting and listening. But it was really, really fun and really beautiful. And and I.. you know.. I cried four times. I remember being like, “That was amazing.” I’ve never cried, someone just telling me a story.

And back then, it was a story of a father-daughter, and it was Jackie Chan, was the idea. And Evelyn was more of a… not a side character, but she wasn’t the main character. And then they did that and I was like, “This is amazing. I cannot wait to see it. I hope you make it. I hope you get all the money you need. And I hope you cast… I hope you get Jackie Chan,” because that was who they were going out for. And then a while later theysaid they let me know that they had changed the script up. They had switched it to be about a mother-daughter, and Evelyn was now the main character and they had Michelle Yeoh in mind.

And I was so excited because I love… Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was a pretty important film for me growing up because, this is sad, but it’s one of the first foreign films that I’d seen, really, in theaters. My dad would always rent foreign films and bring them home and we’d watch them, but that was my first theatrical experience with that. And it really opened me up and got me excited and I really started exploring just just foreign films, in general. And anything outside of the mainstream started to be exciting for me and it even got me into indie filmmaking. And I loved Michelle in that and so I was really excited.

And then they asked me if I wanted to cut it, and I was like? immediately terrified. Because I had sat through that thing and I was like, “This is going to be an insane film and it’s going to be really hard to cut and shoot and act.”

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

 

Paul Rogers:

Like All of it was a challenge. Everything they were laying out seemed impossible. So I said, “Yeah.” And then I immediately called Matt Hannam and I was like, “Can you? can I take you out for drinks or dinner? And I just I think I need your help. I need to know that I could do this. I need your moral support.”

And he was super gracious and you know.. we went out. It was like the week before lockdown too. We were like, “Should we be out? And he just walked me through his process and the experience of working with them and? and just his experience working on so many films with so many directors. And a lot of it was just kinda like talking about personality and keeping the energy up and keeping everyone happy and excited. And that stuff’s the stuff that I really… like.. I know that through the process of editing, the iterative just work through it process, we’ll figure it out editorially.

I just wanted to also make sure that it was a positive experience and that we all could stay friends; because I was good friends with Dan and Daniel, and this was a big movie, and I knew it was going to be stressful and knew it was going to be hard, and I didn’t want to jeopardize or what we had going personally. So that was a really, really big help. And then yeah they sent me the script. I read the new script. I was scared all over again. And then we just got to it. I just kinda had to not think about it as a filmmaker at first and think about it as just I was excited to help my friends make this crazy thing you know.

Sarah Taylor:

From that.. the rewrite of the script that you read after you signed on as editor, how much has that has that changed to what we see in the final film?

Paul Rogers:

The rewrite’s you know? pretty much there. There’s some stuff that got cut, but they had worked on that script for maybe, I think, three years you know.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, wow. Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

And they had a lot of help from other people just reading it and giving notes and smart filmmakers and writers. I think people would be surprised at how dialed in it was and how much the edit reflects that script. We cut a couple of universes. There was one called the Spaghetti Baby Noodle Boy Universe.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, my gosh.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, that one’s on the cutting room floor. It’s on the deleted scenes, though. But it was Evelyn was a spaghetti noodle in a pot of spaghetti noodles, and then Jenny Slate played her little boy who was a macaroni noodle, who was like, you know?”I’m the only one that’s not shaped like the other noodles. I have a hole. No noodles have holes. I don’t belong.” And anyways, it was a? it’s very funny. You should check it out.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, I’m going to totally check that out. That’s amazing.

Paul Rogers:

It was one of my favorite parts of the script, but it just didnt it  never worked in the film. And we really tried. It was in there until some of the later, later, later cuts. And every screening people would be like, “Yeah, I dont?I dont.. I didn’t really vibe with that part of the film.” We were like, “Just wait. We’ll just well change the treatment, we’ll change the genre, we’ll mess with the music, change the voiceover.” And then we’re just like, “No, nothing’s working.”

Sarah Taylor:

You really wanted to save the spaghetti.

Paul Rogers:

We really did.

Sarah Taylor:

Wanted it to be saved. I’d like to talk about like the team that worked in post. Did you have assistant editors? I know you were working during COVID, so that changed how it would work and everybody had to change how they worked. 

Paul Rogers:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

So..What was the team?

Paul Rogers:

It started off with me and Zekun Mao, who’s incredible. And she was from AFI and yeah she had to pivot immediately the first week of… We had one week where we were working in the office off of our network, off our server. And then we all got an alert on our phones. It was like, “Go home and stay home.” And so I?I  remember just grabbing an iMac off the desk and a hard drive and running home. And we all did that. And you know.. I had never worked remotely. I had taken a music video home and done that, but not like this and not with a team. And the way that me and Dan and Daniel work is they cut with me. you know? They have the premier project and we’re trading ideas constantly. And so it was a challenge, to say the least.

And she just figured it out. We got on Resilio Sync, we synced up all our hard drives. We got Evercast going. We tried everything you know… We tried Zoom, we tried Google Meet. Just, “How can we si? how can all  sit in a room together and work?” She figured it out. It was amazing. And I didn’t really have to worry about it. And also, Adobe was really helpful because this was before productions came out. And for those that don’t know, productions is basically It? functions the way Avid has, as far as sharing bins and having multiple editors in a project. It was still in beta. And we just reached out and said, “We’re doing this crazy thing. Do you have any help for us?” And they said, “Well, we have this secret thing we’re working on and maybe we can get you on the beta and you can try it out.” And that was a lifesaver.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, my goodness. No kidding.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, and it worked out great for remote work, and they also just gave us access to their engineers so we could be like, “How does this work?” And they would jump on a Zoom and just walk us through it or you knwo?

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, wow.

Paul Rogers:

Or occasionally, we?we.. because it was in beta, we found a bug and they would just push an update for us you  know… So that was a dream come true. We had a lot of great smart people figuring out how to work remotely. And then Zekun had to leave about halfway through to cut her first feature. And she introduced us to Aashish DeMello who took over and he took us through to the end. And it was like you know.. a dream team. Everyone was great, everyone was on it. I had very little to.. to? worry about. The one thing that I wish I had done more of is just relied on them creatively more, because I think I was so wrapped up in just my own like anxieties about the film. And because of the remote workflow where they weren’t in the office, I had dreamed of including them a lot more. of like “Do a pass on the scene and and you know.. come sit with me for a while.” And it just didn’t work out that way. And I think a lot of it was just kinda me yah me getting caught up in my own anxieties about the film. But the couple of times when I remembered to do it, it was great.  you know It was a good cut. Did some assemblies of scenes that were really, really fun. And she was great because she spoke Mandarin and Cantonese. I don’t speak Mandarin and Cantonese. Dan Kwan speaks a little bit, but he’s not fluent. And so she was subtitling for us and she would even say, like you know? “That’s a pretty good take, but they you know they flubbed the line there or they said the word a little funky. It just sounds weird.” And so she would help us even with our selects and stuff.

Sarah Taylor:

That’s amazing.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

That’s a great asset. Yeah. You mentioned your anxieties of doing this massive film that had many themes, many genres, or styles you could say, of different inspiration from different films. How did you handle all that? Were there films that you watched to be like, “Oh, this is a good reference for this universe,” or like yeah? how did you tackle all the worlds?

Paul Rogers:

I mean I think it’s pretty obvious that the Matrix was a huge influence and reference. And I think you can’t really make a sci-fi action film in our generation of filmmakers without even accidentally referencing and pulling from the Matrix. It was so influential. I just bought tickets to watch it on 35, actually, last night.

Sarah Taylor:

Nice.

Paul Rogers:

It’s at a local theater. I haven’t seen it in theaters since it came out. You know? I watched it when I was 15 or whatever.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, my goodness.

Paul Rogers:

Anyways, so that was a big one. And the temp score, half the temp score at the very beginning was the Matrix score because it just fits, and it also has kinda shorthand. They did a really good job of establishing… I guess it’s the its kinda the water harp. I don’t know exactly what it’s called, but this sound that they use that just lets you know something funky is going on in the Matrix right now. Just pay attention. That kind of stuff was really useful. And Son Lux, our composer, ended up, I think, taking some inspiration from that and trying to figure out their own version of that. What was that version of the Multiverses, is something’s happening you know? or something’s coming. The Matrix Dan and Daniel had us watch Holy Motors, which is incredible; but it’s less of a stylistic reference or storytelling reference and more of a reference of, “Hey, you can ignore the rules of filmmaking and storytelling and still have a really powerful emotional experience.” you know? And uhhh.  we watched Paprika, which is a great film from Japan, and Mind Game. And really for Mind Game, there was ?there’s a section at the end of that film, it’s animated, where they’re trying to escape out of the belly of a whale. And it’s like 30 minutes and I don’t think there’s any dialogue and it’s just pure insanity. And so Dan Kwan always talked about that as a reference for the end of our film, kinda going up the staircase, that section. There’s just so many like incredible films that would come up. Obviously, In The Mood For Love. they? I don’t even know if we even mentioned it by name while we were cutting because it was just so obvious. This is in the In The Mood For Love universe you know; what we would call, I guess, the movie star universe. I call it a sexy wayman universe.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, that’s true.

Paul Rogers:

The nice thing about audiences today is we’re all… Because of streaming and because we grew up with just film as an? such a more accessible, even just because we had Blockbusters where we could rent movies and re-watch them; versus my parents’ generation we’re like, “If you didn’t catch it in theaters, you didn’t see it.” Because of that, we have a really kinda ingrained knowledge of genre and an understanding of the tropes of each genre. Even if we don’t have that kinda vocabulary, we’re just general film goers, we know what it means, what it sounds like and feels like, to be in an action film or romance or rom-com or you know comedy. And so we could lean on those editorially as we’re jumping back and forth between universes to just center people and ground people in what they’re what theyre in. Because its its? we’re asking a lot of the audience. We talked a lot about this; the whiplash the whiplash the film is by design creating as you fly back and forth between genres. And it’s nice to just give people a clue, like, “Okay, you are in the  this is the Lifetime family drama genre.” you know..  And the aspect ratio plays into that, the music, the color correction, you know? even their performances. They kinda dialed in to that you know… And the pacing of it, we would just try to emulate those things. Comedy genre or multiverse, the action universe, the horror film universe, or just you know? those moments. That was really fun to get to play in all those different genres and be like, “Okay, what are the things we can do to help the audience know where they where they are and what’s going on and and how they can.. how they should be reading this andand and and ingesting this?”

Sarah Taylor:

You came up with a technique and I’m curious where it came from, to signal the audience that were you know?. there’s going to be a shift, we’re going to go into the multiverse. And there was the glass cracking, the sounds. Was that some of stuff that was established within like the initial edits or was that after the fact?

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, it was  editorially, we figured it out. And the glass cracking, I remember early on Dan and Daniel, they were just they were trying a bunch of stuff with Zak Stoltz, the VFX supervisor, and the glass cracking was just one of them you know..  They had a bunch of different ideas. And then I was playing around a lot with sound design you know. What would it sound like? That reverse bell ring that ended up being… It was just one of many options we had. And you know? the nice thing about the glass thing, too, was the sound of it is so visceral and gives you that feeling because it’s not a pleasant sound and it sounds like something’s going wrong. And that’s how it should feel you know.. when she’s split between these universes and trying to center herself.

So pretty early on, we we.. I think Dan and Daniel and Zak decided that that was the move. And then it was just a matter, for me, of kinda sound design and how can I play within that space and how can we all just experiment so that no no like no multiverse shift is ever exactly the same. And can we can we tailor them each to what’s going on in that moment, and can we have fun and play and subvert expectations now that… Once we establish a language, can we play within that you know?

Sarah Taylor:

Break those rules.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. I like it. Was there a scene that was the most challenging?

Paul Rogers:

God, I mean the whole thing was challenging. I think we for different reasons, different scenes. The first 15 minutes in the laundromat were challenging, only because we found out pretty early that if we didn’t nail the characters and who they are and their motivations and and also just make the audience care about them within the first 15, that the rest of the film just never worked. And especially that end scene, the parking lot between Evelyn and Joy. The first couple cuts, like people got it, but they didn’t feel it. People weren’t crying as they watched that you know. And it was because we weren’t doing what we needed to be doing in the first 15 minutes.

Sarah Taylor:

Right? yeah.

Paul Rogers:

And we ended up really dialing in the performances. and? Not that they weren’t there, but we just weren’t using them the way that we needed to be. And then they added a.. a pickup shot of Joy driving away crying; because the way that her character was handling all this drama with her mom in the in the script and the way that it was shot was she was putting up a brave face and just giving it back as much as she was giving it to her mom, for the most part. We were trying to figure out ways within what they shot to just like, “Okay, can we hold on Joy as she’s upset with her mom for calling Becky her friend.” And we were pushing that as much as we could. And then finally, Dan and Daniel were like, “I think we just need to do a pickup.” And so they shot that moment of her weakness and her vulnerability and it really just carries through for the rest of the film.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, I think that… Yeah, what a good? what a good  decision.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Knowing that you have a background in music videos, did you find that was really helpful for a lot.. lot of the action scenes and the speed ramping, those skills?  technical skills that you would’ve taken from the music video world?

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, I think the more expansive the type of work you can do, the better. I mean? you know I wish I had done more weird stuff and it all would’ve been helpful. Music videos are fun because there’s a general like lower stakes quality to them that allows you to really just get weird and experiment. And whatever makes it fun and enjoyable to watch, works. So you don’t have to follow many rules. The only rule is try to make the song better, somehow you know. I feel like Turned Down For What, because of the treatment of the way that they made that music video like, it makes me like the song more and I picture that. And.. you know? same with Until The Quiet Comes by Kahlil is like. That song means a lot to me when I hear it because I see those images in my head.

Sarah Taylor:

Mmm. Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

It’s one of the sources of anxiety, sometimes, in working on a music video for a really good song, is is like?if you don’t elevate it, then you might run the risk of the opposite, of making it be like, “Yeah, when I? now when I hear that song, I see that terrible music video in my head.”

Sarah Taylor:

They ruined it.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah. And that’s scary. That’s a real responsibility that editors have, I think, in everything we do is like I felt that on this film. “Man, if I screw this up, it’s going to make Michelle look bad, it’s going to make Ke look bad, Stephanie Hsu, it’s going to make Dan and Daniel look bad, the production designer, Jason you know? These are all my friends that work on this stuff. And so it passes through my hands at the very end; and in my mind, that means if it’s not good, it’s my fault and I’m letting all these people down. I think it’s important to hold that responsibility every day.

Sarah Taylor:

I’m curious about your choice to use Premiere. I’m primarily a prem?Premiere editor myself and so?

Paul Rogers:

Mmhmm..

 

Sarah Taylor:

And what were the advantages? Obviously, productions was?very handy for you, but what were some of the other advantages you found using that system?

Paul Rogers:

I learned Avid in school and liked it. And I also learned Final Cut in school. It was probably 4, Final Cut 5, or I don’t know 3 I dont know what it was.

Sarah Taylor:

3 was their big one that came out. We were like, “Whoa.”

Paul Rogers:

That was probably it. Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

Final Cut 3. And then I? when I got out of school, my job at public television, they were on Final Cut Pro, so I just got used to that. And then when they decided to go to X?Final Cut X, me and Luke, I remember, were working and we were like, “Should we do Avid? Should we go to Avid or should we go to Premiere?” And we were both like, “We don’t really want to go to Premiere,” because we don’t know it and it it? didn’t have a good reputation and so?. Because we were dismissing it, we were like, “Well, we should try it then because that’s dumb to not try it and just dismiss it.” you know And so we gave ourselves a week and it was a pretty slow week and we had maybe a music video or something. And we cut it and you know.. Premiere was smart and you could choose Final Cut 7 keyboard shortcuts, which I’ve still… My shortcuts are super modified, but they’re kinda based on that.

And we liked it and there was a lot of like freedom in the Premiere workflow. It’s a little more kinda improv jazz. It’s a little less tied to the film workflow. Avid is very much like emulating the film workflow, which is great for people who came from film, who cut in film for years and years and years. Because Final Cut was less of a film workflow, as well, I think I was just separated from that workflow so much that Premiere made more sense and felt more free to me. And and honestly, it just like? I feel like it’s like arguing over what brand of drill you like its like.

Sarah Taylor:

Hundred percent.

Paul Rogers:

They both fucking drill holes like?. you know.

Sarah Taylor:

Nobody knows the difference between those two holes, what drill happened. Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying so like?. As long as the work gets done, it doesn’t matter. It’s just a personal preference of what frustrates me less; and Premiere personally frustrates me less. And I like i like Avid. I’m working on Avid on a project right now. It’s just because certain projects are started, then it’s a pain to convert them. I like, also, the fact that Dan and Daniel… And I think 95% of the VFX in this film were done in After Effects. And they would just you know.. shoot it off to After Effects and bring it back and it was so easy and so fast.

And I love… I temp in a ton of VFX in my projects and I do a ton of audio effect work. And so it’s heavily sound design and heavily affected. And being able to like?  do a really fast mat over someone and split screen to combine two takes, like it takes me four seconds to do a really pretty solid key. you know? And there’s this good amount of green screen in this. And then once?  I’d never really used time-remapping keyframes on the timeline; and once I figured that out in Premiere for this film especially, it became huge.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, it’s a game changer once you can wrap your head around how to make it work.

Paul Rogers:

Man it was like? we.. they shot a lot.. Because of the music video background, they shot a lot of their stuff at high frame rates so that we had the option to slow down. Even if we didn’t, I could play so much with just like… Not so much performances, but like? what’s going on in the background while someone’s doing something in the foreground you know.. in a non-action scene. But in the action scenes especially, we would really like… Because we wanted to not… A lot of the reason that indie action movies get so cutty in their in their? action scenes is because they have to. Because they just don’t have the time for rehearsal, they don’t have the time and money for a four-day shoot on a one scene fight. And that was how this was. like? The fanny pack fight they shot in a day, I think, which is crazy. They spend a week on that stuff in Hong Kong.

Sarah Taylor:

Wow.

Paul Rogers:

And we wanted to stay in the wides as much as we could and we wanted to not be cutting around where you didn’t know what was happening. And a big way of leveling that playing field between us, indie action film and big blockbuster film, was time-remapping and splitting the screen and combining takes; and you know? making a punch that may not have been thrown quite with the force it needed, like? speed ramping it, and making it feel better. And when someone flies back, slowing them down in mid-air so there’s more of a weight, and then speeding it up right as they hit the ground so that you feel that impact. and so that was?

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

?that was?These are all just little reasons why Premiere worked out really well.

Sarah Taylor:

Very effective. Okay, so let’s jump to the Oscars. like? What a ride for your whole team.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

It came out, I think, when it needed to come out.

Paul Rogers:

Mmhmm.

Sarah Taylor:

It Landed in the right spot, I think, when it needed to land. What was that journey like for you?

Paul Rogers:

It was overwhelming. It was a lot. I think no? no one was expecting it. i mean.. There’s a joke in.. you know..  when? when..  Jobu is cycling through the weapons in her hand and like… One of the VFX guys threw an Oscar in there as a joke because it was such a silly idea?.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

And now, you know? if we had known it was actually going to happen, we would not have put that in there because you know?  then it’s like? not cool.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, it’s totally cool.

Paul Rogers:

And we? Yeah, it is kind of funny, but we you know? we just never, ever… And you know..  people would say like, “You know.. you think you’ll get awards?” And I’m like, “This is not that kind of movie. I’m just going to tell you, it’s just not.” There’s a lot of butt plugs and there’s a whole fight where just stuff shoved up at people’s asses. People were eating their boogers in the movie like you know?. It’s just weird. The first thing was that we were just really excited that people were watching it. And it grew pretty slow. It wasn’t like it hit and had like a huge opening weekend. It just kept expanding and growing organically. But I remember the first week it came out, Dan Kwan was in a coffee shop down the street from my office and he was like..  texted us. He was like, “I heard somebody talking about our movie. They’d just seen it. Isn’t that crazy?” The fact that someone in a coffee shop had seen the movie was a big deal for us. 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

And then obviously, it just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And then we were like, “Oh, my God.” And you know? I remember… I don’t have a Twitter, but you can search on Twitter, and I would go and search the title of the movie and just see is anyone talking about it. And there would be six tweets in a day and I’d be like, “Oh, my God, it’s amazing. Six people are talking about the movie.” I remember Ke Quan at one of… not the friends and family, the crew screening, basically, where everyone got?  finally got to see the film. Ke, we were talking and he said, “you know? I think this could really be big. I think it could? could win some Oscars.” And I was like? I kinda gave that same dismissive like, “No, that’s so thats not going to happen, Ke.” And he was right. And now? and now.. now I’m just like, “God. Man, we just need to all learn the lesson to just not doubt Ke, because is.. you know like.. he is ?he just knows what’s up.” And he is uhhh? you know? it’s the same thing. That’s why he ended up having to leave Hollywood, was people just kept doubting him and he?s like he’s a fucking amazing actor you know?.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, totally.

Paul Rogers:

So I was like, “God, now I’m in that line of like? assholes that just?doubted.”

Sarah Taylor:

Shut him down.

Paul Rogers:

you know? Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, man.

Paul Rogers:

But he was right and he won an Oscar? like.. That’s crazy. He came back. First film like? after, what, 20, 30 years and came back and won an Oscar.

Sarah Taylor:

It’s amazing. Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

It’s amazing. And I was just really, really excited for the most part for Michelle and Ke and Stephanie and Jamie you know?. Jamie’s a legend, but it was crazy that her first Oscar nomination? oscars? was mine; like? that our first Oscar was together was really strange. It was overwhelming because I don’t… I mean? Editors are not we are not? designed or built for that kind of attention and for that kind of like? interest. And I also realized that we? aren’t built to talk about what we do. We’re just built to do it. And so a lot of my early interviews, they talk about my process and I would just make it up. I’d be like, “This is what I do and da da da.” And then later I’d be like, “That’s not what I do.” I mean? I did that once. 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

I did that on a? for a day; but like?  I was just trying to make it interesting and then I So.. The more I would do them, the more I realized like  I’ve just got to be honest and be like, “Every day it’s different.” you know? Because I get bored if I get? have one process. If I only do dailies and selects one way, I’m going to get bored. And my timeline’s messy. My bins are messy like? you know?  That’s why there’s this timeline floating around from the film. I was like? doing a presentation and I had Zuken and Aashish clean up the timeline for me. And I was like, “I want it to look good.” And they did and they sent it over; and then I was looking at it and I was like, “That is?nt? It is unrecognizable to me.” It’s not me, it’s not the way I work. And I don’t want like?  people out there just getting started to be like, “Oh, I can never be a real editor unless I spend a lot of time being organized.”

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

Because thats like?  being creative is messy and weird And you know?  I can look at a crazy timeline with literally 40 layers of video and a bunch of disabled clips and I’ll be like, “Oh, I know. That this was an idea I had?

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

-here and that might come back, so maybe I’ll keep that on a timeline and just disable it.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

“So I was like, “Just put out the messy one.” And even that messy one is like? half cleaned up because they would clean as I went you know… 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:     

Like if y’a ll saw the real one, I don’t know if I would ever work again. That shit is crazy.

Sarah Taylor:

Well, other editors would appreciate it, because I am definitely one of the messy ones.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah. I should dig up like some of my early… you know.. The act one, the first timeline of that is just insanity.

Sarah Taylor:

What I found really interesting with the whole Oscar thing and you winning? which is Congratulations.

Paul Rogers:

Thank you.

Sarah Taylor:

I’d never seen an editor be shared memes and your speeches from people who are not in the film industry. like.. You became a famous editor. And I was like, “What is happening? This is amazing.” I don’t know if you felt that. I’m sure you have.

Paul Rogers:

A little bit. I mean? I’m not on social media, so it was nice that I could just turn my phone off and-

Sarah Taylor:

You could do it from afar.

Paul Rogers:

I love the stuff about work-life balance, and all the other stuff was not fun and kinda anxiety inducing.

Sarah Taylor:

You taking that opportunity when you were in the limelight to make that statement like, “Well, this kind of thing happens to guys that look like me all the time,” thank you. That was a moment where I feel like you did service to our industry. What made you feel like this was the time to make that.. to say that? Is this something that you are trying to change how our industry is not as diverse as it could be behind the scenes?

Paul Rogers:

Yeah, I think..  it felt very obvious to me because it’s something that, we? in our company at Parallax, we talk about it all the time. And its.. it’s also just obvious when you look around the room at the Oscars or wherever I was you know… At all the other award shows that I got invited to, it was like it was really obvious that it was mostly white men. And I didn’t feel like I was like? breaking news. And it’s something we think about a lot with how how..  we hire and the interns that we bring on and who we’re mentoring and really, a lot of it is just like what kind of projects and stories are we giving our pretty considerable time and energy to ?

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

-telling?

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

-right? Because that’s really where we have the most power, is like?  we are storytellers. What stories are we going to tell, are we going to help people tell? And its also like?. I recognize that when I came out here, I went to college, I had no college debt you know?. I got some grants and then my parents paid for my college. And I had a wife who paid all my bills and I could also just walk into a production house and no one would be like, “What are you doing here?”

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, you could use that code and you wouldn’t get kicked out.

Paul Rogers:

Yeah. I just? you know?I look like I belong coz like?  all the other interns were young white guys?

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

-and so I kinda like? just fit into the? you know?  And that’s just not the way it works for everybody. And so.. I can’t be like, “Just do it the way I did it. Just show up to where you want to be and pretend you work there.” 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

You know.. That just doesn’t work. I mean? You know how it is with editors? like.. We don’t go out and go to these big functions a lot. And so I ended up meeting a lot of other editors or former editors. And you know? I was talking to a woman, she was like, “Yeah, I was a picture editor. Loved it. It was my life. I had kids. It became harder. And then I got a divorce and became a single parent and it became impossible and I quit and I became a music editor.” And its like?  that’s also a problem with the fact that we work 12, 14-hour days. 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

Not even just 12 to 14-hour days. The fact that we work 10-hour days is too much. And I know? like? I? I for a long time had the feeling people would be like, “Man, this is? you know? 50 hours a week is a lot.” And I’d be like, huhhh.. you know..  “Come on.”

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

I work 12 hours a? a day?

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

you know? for? 14 hours a day?. like?Just buck up and deal with it.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

It’s a bigger issue like?. It’s really like? if you want… And it’s not just for parents and people with families like? But for me personally, if I go to work, if I start at 9:00, 10- hour day is 9:00 to 7:00, that doesn’t include a lunch break. So let’s throw 30 minutes in for lunch. Drop my kids off at daycare. I go to? get to the office at 9:00. I work til.. 7:30. I drive home. By the time I get home, it’s 8:00. Both my kids are in bed. I’m just going to accept that I just don’t see my kids until the weekends. And then the weekends are recovery. 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah

Paul Rogers:

Weekends shouldn’t be recovery. Weekends should be like? we fly into the weekends with a bunch of energy and we do all the stuff that we want to do. But because of the way that we work, we spend a full day recovering and then on Sunday we just do all the shit that we need to do really fast and clean up our house and do-

Sarah Taylor:

Exactly. Yeah.

Paul Rogers:

It’s not a sustainable way of working. And so I want to figure out a way where we can work eight, nine-hour days and still get the work done. Because also, what happens is when you work a 12-hour day, you pace yourself. You’re not working as fast and it’s hard because you’re like, “I’m going to be fucking here all day like?.” I’m going to take a ton of breaks. We can do the work in in?-

Sarah Taylor:

Here. Yeah, exactly.

Paul Rogers:

… a reasonable amount of time and we need to figure out a way to got to-

Sarah Taylor:

Got to get another coffee.

Paul Rogers:

… adapt so that the work? its?  our workdays are set up differently for people with different needs. People with different mental health needs, people who are single parents, people who just can’t swing the crazy schedule that we have all just become accustomed to. And not even accustomed. We’re like? thankful for an 11-hour day. We’re thankful for a 10-hour day and that’s not good. I’m excited that people are talking about that. I don’t know what all the answers are. I’m trying to figure it out and my company’s trying. We’re now? we?re? we?re doin? doing our best to try to figure it out. We still have the needs of these clients that have these expectations that are set from decades of overworking us. And so it’s it?s?  a battle sometimes, but it’s worthwhile. And as we’ve all matured and the pandemic helped a lot of just letting us know like, man, you can really have a great life and you can do great work. I did this whole movie during the pandemic. I saw my family all the time. And there would be days where I was like, “Look, Dan, Daniel, I’m tired. I really need to go to the park with my kid. He’s?. he?s 3 years old.” And they’d be like, “Sweet. can we? We’re going to go grab some beers and you know? we’ll throw you a beer from six feet away.” And we hang out in the park. like? that sounds great. It was such a great way to work.

Sarah Taylor:

If we grind all day long, all the time we’re telling stories about life, but we’re not living life. We need to be able to go out there and live life. Right?

Paul Rogers:

I totally agree. Yeah. And the more? the more the life you live, the better the stories you can tell, is exactly what you’re saying. But I also think that like? it’s a diversity issue in the sense of the more interesting and diverse and? and? varied the people you surround yourself with, the more interesting and real the stories that you tell, and the? the ways that you can tell stories are going to be much better. And so? it’s like if you make a gumbo with one ingredient, it’s going to taste like that one thing. I don’t know if that metaphor makes any sense.

Sarah Taylor:

We need to have more flavor.

Paul Rogers:

We need to have more flavor. Right.

Sarah Taylor:

How can we as individuals in the sys? in the system that we’re in right now help make a shift, especially people who have more privilege? What are we able to do to help?

Paul Rogers:

I don’t know if it’s possible to just shed your privilege, but it’s definitely possible to re-weaponize it for a different… And.. and retool it and use it. It’s definitely something that we think about and talk about a lot. And its.. you know?  it seems? it just seems so obvious.

Sarah Taylor:

I agree.

Paul Rogers:

you know.. its like? It’s crazy that people were like, “Wow, he said that.” I’m like, “Y’all aren’t saying this every day?” I think just? it’s so minimal. Just be deliberate and think about what you’re doing.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, totally.

Paul Rogers:

I think that’s kinda? the genesis of it. Just think about what you’re doing. Can we do that?

Sarah Taylor:

One last question is, what’s coming up next? Is there anything that we can watch out for?

Paul Rogers:

I just finished a film called The Legend of Ochi, directed by Isaiah Saxon. He’s another first-time director. And uhmm? it stars Willem Dafoe and Wolfhard and Emily Watson and and Helena Zengel. and it’s this kinda cool… It’s a little bit of a throwback and that? it’s about a girl who learns to speak to animals, but it’s like? all animatronics and people in? in? puppetry and-

Sarah Taylor:

Cool.

Paul Rogers:

so?its? you know? It’s got that little old? old school vibe to it, which I love. And then I’m working on a film with Kahlil Joseph, who’s my partner at Parallax, his first feature called Black News, which is based on an art installation, an urban project that he has had ongoing for the last couple of years. And that’s a big fun one because it’s a its?a  ton of editors and it’s years of edited material that we’re also pulling in from all kinds of editors with varying levels of ex? experience. And so thats? we’re still working on that one. so.. and then you know? maybe a little break. We’ll see.

Sarah Taylor:

Well, I hope you can take that break and I look forward to all this great stuff coming out. And yeah, thanks again so much.

Paul Rogers:

Thank you for having me. It was great.

Sarah Taylor:

Thank you so much for joining us today. And a big thanks goes out to Paul for taking the time to sit with me. Special thanks goes to Allison Dowler and Kim Taggart, CCE. The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall; additional ADR recording by Andrea Rush. Original music created by Chad Blain and Soundstripe. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. The CCE is proud to support HireBIPOC. HireBIPOC is the definitive and ubiquitous industry-wide roster of Canadian BIPOC creatives and crew working in screen-based industries. Check out hirebipoc.ca to hire your next group or create a profile and get hired.

Speaker 4:

The CCE is a non-profit organization, with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member, please visit our website, www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info

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The Editors Cut

Episode 077 – Assistant Editing with Bettina Zachariah Treviranus

The Editor's Cut: Episode 77: Assistant Editing with Bettina Zachariah Treviranus

Episode 77: Assistant Editing with Bettina Zachariah Treviranus

In this episode Sarah Taylor sits down with Bettina Zachariah Treviranus.

TEC 077: Bettina Zachariah Treviranus

Bettina is obsessed with and has a deep love of stories that began when she learned how to read. By trade, she?s a television editor and producer of such shows like Work In Progress, Dominion, and Grimm. By night, she?s a devoted daughter, wife, mother, and friend. Bettina believes that stories are what humanize us, teaches us, strengthens us, and connects us. She?s deeply honored to be here and share her experiences.

Sarah and Bettina discuss her career journey and how she landed her current position as assistant editor on Class of ?09.

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The Editor?s Cut – Episode 77: Assistant Editing with Bettina Zachariah Treviranus

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

What I could have done differently is that I could have put myself out there, stayed after hours, ask for help, ask to shadow, and it’s not that those opportunities weren’t available to me, I just had a lot of inhibitions. When I think it took me seven years to become assistant editor, it’s like, “Oh my gosh.” It’s one of the reasons I do so much mentoring now is to demystify the process.

Sarah Taylor:

Hello and welcome to the Editor’s Cut. I’m your host Sarah Taylor. We would like to point out that the lands on which we have created this podcast and that many of you may be listening to us from, are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we are on ancestral territory, that has long served as a place where indigenous peoples have lived, met, and interacted. We honor, respect, and recognize these nations that have never relinquished their rights or sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many contributions, and the concerns that impact indigenous individuals and communities. Land acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.

Today, I bring to you an interview with Bettina Zachariah Treviranus. She’s obsessed with and has a deep love of stories that began when she learned how to read. By trade, she’s a television editor and producer of such shows like Work in Progress, Dominion, and Grimm. By name, she’s a devoted daughter, wife, mother, and friend. Bettina believes that stories are what humanize us, teach us, strengthen us, and connect us. We discuss her career journey and how she landed her current position as assistant editor.

Speaker 3:

And action.

Speaker 4:

This is the editor’s cut.

Speaker 5:

A CCE podcast.

Speaker 4:

Exploring the art …

Speaker 5:

Of picture editing.

Sarah Taylor:

Bettina, thank you so much for joining us on the Editor’s Cut.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Sarah Taylor:

So I am going to steal a little bit from the playbook of Post in Black. They always like to start their episodes with an icebreaker.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Great. Okay.

Sarah Taylor:

So I’m going to do it with you.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Awesome.

Sarah Taylor:

What is the last show that you binge-watched?

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

My gosh. I binge-watched so many things. I’m trying to think because I basically do chores all the time, so I’m constantly watching … I think I just rewatched Modern Family because I needed comfort foods, I’d already seen it, but it was like I’m stressed and so I just need something that is comfy and I know it, and it has a lot of episodes, so I don’t have to leave my warm blanket for a while.

Sarah Taylor:

I totally get that. Sometimes I’ll catch myself rewatching Gilmore Girls just because I’m like, it’s comfortable.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah, they’ve done psychological research about why people like to rewatch things and it’s because what’s going to happen. So if you’re kind of in a period in your life where there’s a lot of unknowns or uncertainty, that’s a very comfort … it used to be West Wing for me, until Netflix took it off. I would actually fall asleep to the West Wing because I knew seasons one through four so well, that it was a way of getting my brain to stop thinking about all my problems and just listen to the audio and fall asleep.

Sarah Taylor:

I love it. I bet you, there’s probably studies that have been done during the pandemic where … to see which shows were the ones that people chose to watch.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

I think that’d be really interesting to investigate.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Sure, mine, I just finished watching The Watcher. I watched it two nights in a row.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Okay.

Sarah Taylor:

It’s like we’re recording around Halloween, so I felt it was a really … it was kind of spooky, so it was fun. Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah. Yeah. Very neat.

Sarah Taylor:

Not comforting at all, but fun. Okay, well tell us a little bit about your yourself and what led you to a career in post-production?

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

I am from Chicago and I as a kid, would read a lot and for me, when I read a book, it plays like a movie. I’m Indian American. My family upbringing was very strict, so we were not allowed to watch TV Monday through Thursday. So Friday, Saturday, Sunday were the only days, so what was available to me in terms of entertainment were books. So I would just lose myself in books. They would play movies in my head to the point where if I was reading a book and I got a phone call, I would take the phone call and be like, “Oh, I missed the rest of that movie.” I go, “No, no, it’s a book. I can go back to reading.” So I would think a lot about, “Oh, I would want to make this book into a movie,” but growing up, that felt very distant and far away and things that other people did.

So I went to college, didn’t know what I wanted, resisted declaring a major forever and then, finally I majored in English and secondary education and was like, “Okay, I guess I’ll be a high school teacher.” And that felt very right for my family like, “Oh, she’d be a great teacher.” And so everybody encouraged me to do that. I didn’t really want to, but I didn’t have in my head other options. Then, I actually did student teaching. I absolutely hated it. Then, I took on a long-term substitute teacher job where a teacher was going to go have a baby, so I finished out her year for her. That was my like, well maybe it wasn’t so bad and I remembered it badly and then, I tried it and was like, “Oh, I still hate this. Well now what do I do?” And I always incorporated a lot of movies in my lesson planning.

So I was like, “Well, I guess I’ll go to film school.” So at this point, I was out of college for a year and I didn’t think anybody would accept me into film school. So I went and I did an internship in Washington DC for a year to strengthen my grad school application. That program put me with a documentary producer and I was basically free work in her basement. I would answer phone calls, digitize photos, and that was the first time I saw an editor working and I was like, “Oh, this is so cool,” what they were doing. What I realized is I was in musicals and when I would watch rehearsals, I would think, “Oh, if it were me, I would put the camera here so we can see this person.” It’s effectively editing. In my head, I just didn’t know at the time, that’s what it was.

So I went to Chapman University in Orange, California and you had to … they have a conservatory model and you had to declare what your emphasis was and like everybody else, I put director first and then, my second was editing because that was what I was exposed to. I didn’t even know what cinematography was. I knew I was not going to be a good production designer and I did not feel at the time I would be a good writer or a producer. So I didn’t get into the directing program, but I did get into the editing program and that is kind of what set me up down the line. It was basically those set of experiences, kind of nudging me towards post.

I got an internship my third year of school … no, I’m sorry, my second year of school with Battlestar Galactica, and my third year of school I was hired as a post-production assistant on Battlestar.

Sarah Taylor:

Amazing.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

So my third year I was working, I was going to school and I was getting married. So I lost a lot of hair that year.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, that’s like all of the major fun stressors.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

It was like … yes and for me it was like “Well, I want to finish school and I don’t want to say no to this job and I really want to get married, so I’m going to do it all.” And in retrospect it’s like, “Girl, you could have taken some time. You didn’t have to do it all, but you’re young and you think everything has to be right now.”

Sarah Taylor:

Yes. Yes.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

And I tend not to take time. I tend to cram it all in, if I can.

Sarah Taylor:

We sound very similar. So where are you now? What are you doing now?

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

So a few years ago for family reasons, my husband and I moved back to Chicago. So now, a very unintended positive consequence of the pandemic has been that remote work has become a very real option. So before when I moved to Chicago, that was in 2017, I would reach out and be like, “In post, why can’t we do this remotely? There is really no reason we all have to be in an office.” The responses I got was, “Oh, the infrastructure isn’t there and oh, security.” And I was like, “This intuitively doesn’t feel right, but I don’t know how to vocalize why this feels silly and wrong.” Then, the pandemic hit and nobody could go into an office and suddenly, all those problems went away.

Sarah Taylor:

Real quick.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

So I did a couple of things in between. I took one job for seven months where I flew back and forth to LA from Chicago every week for seven months to keep up my resume. And then, I ended up getting hired on a show in Chicago. So that kept up my resume, but then as soon as I realized there was work from home options, I started setting up my resume just to raise my hand because not being in LA sort of … it’s easier for people to forget you as an option. A former editor I worked with needed some … his assistant was being bumped up, so he convinced the head of Post to bring me on as a cover assistant editor. It was funny when the tech department was setting me up and they were like, “Oh yeah, this is the software we used to control rovers on Mars.” And I was like, “If we can control things on Mars, of course we should be able to remote into half a country away,” is what I’m saying.

Sarah Taylor:

We’re in space, God dammit.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

This is the type of thing that like, it doesn’t feel right but I can’t figure out why these answers don’t feel right, and really what it boils down to is that the industry wasn’t ready for it. It had to be forced into it.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, totally.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

That’s what I do now at the moment is if there isn’t a job for me in Chicago, I will look for remote work into LA and I keep LA hours and it’s just been a … for now, and we’ll see how long it lasts because the pandemic is still going on. We’ll see if people will keep wanting to work remotely. I think there is some real positives for people in terms of work-life balance and just not having to sit in LA traffic and not having to sit around and wait for an output. There is some real positives to having some more control. Now, some people hate it, some people want to be in the office, they want that face time, they want to be out of their house. Property is very expensive in LA. So I have the luxury of having a guest room, and so my Avid is there and it’s very easy to separate myself from my family and work. That’s not the easiest thing to achieve in LA. So there are people who just need that space.

So I get both sides of it. My idea would be a hybrid situation. I love working from home, but I do miss the camaraderie and sitting around and laughing at outtakes and having lunch with everybody and becoming a little family over the course of a show. That stuff I do miss.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, I’m with you on that. I’m with you on that. Well, since you’ve mentioned, you work from home, you have a guest room, what does your typical day look like as an assistant editor at this current stage, working remotely?

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

So because I work in … I remote into LA, I’m two hours ahead of LA so my day starts at 11, which means … I also have two kids, so the mornings are basically my time to spend time with them, get them ready for school, get them going and run all the errands. And what’s really been nice is I can do appointments, doctor’s appointments, dentist’s appointments, whereas that’s harder after hours to get anything specialized done and now, I’m trying to jam it into my workday. So that part has been awesome. Then, basically, my days as an assistant editor is basically what my editor needs. So when we’re in dailies, I prep dailies to the editor, how they like it. Some editors want script syncing, some editors want it in frame view where they can see what all the angles are. So, it’s really however they want it and then, depending on where we are in the show, what needs to be done for all the other departments.

So right now, my current show, we are well out of dailies, and I have a to-do list. So for example, we onlined a show a couple of days ago, I got the van back last night. Tonight I’m going to … when we get off the phone here, I’m going to check the van and make sure that it’s correct to what I turned over. So I have a little to-do list of checking in with different departments, checking in with my bosses, and then getting whatever work, if there’s sound work or outputs or turnovers to do. Just structuring my day so I can take care of all of that, in a timely fashion so that I’m not … I like to be the rock in the department where I am trying to make it as easy as possible and to minimize chaos because I feel like every TV show gets to the point where it’s crazy and chaotic and what can I do personally to lower that?

Because I love making television, it is literally my favorite thing to do in the world. So, if there’s something I can bring to the table that makes it a cool, fun experience, then I want to do that because … yeah, I read something like, “Only 2% of the people in the world love their jobs.” It’s like, “Ugh, really? That’s it.”

Sarah Taylor:

That sounds awful.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

I know we should all love our jobs.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

We’ve spent so much time there. I don’t know if that’s a real statistic, but I read that in some kind of headline.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

It’s like, “Oh, I must be really lucky.”

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, I feel it with you. So is there any sort of ways of organizing as an assistant that you always use or is it always changing for the editor you’re working with?

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

I consider my specialty is like I tailor myself to my department. This is the most embarrassing part of my story. It took me seven years to become an assistant editor. I actually went up to post producing chain at first, I went from post-production assistant to post-production coordinator to post supervisor to associate producer, mainly because I got that first internship at Battlestar, and that was the easiest way to go up the chain because it was very hard for me to get into the union because the union, you had to do 100 days non-scripted union work. And I had a lot of, in retrospect, very silly tech fear. In my opinion, there’s no great way to train to become an assistant editor. There are things like master the workflow now, but at the time, people would tell me, just take the job and fake it until you make it, which even now that I actually know the job, it’s like, “Are you crazy?” This is-

Sarah Taylor:

You need to know.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

There’s a lot of things that’s like I would not have been able to figure out. What actually ended up happening was I got onto a job, a friend advocated for me and it turned out that that show was block shot. So two episodes were shot at the same time. So another acquaintance that I knew who later on became a very good friend, he was an assistant editor. He and I started at the same time, and he trained me, and that was just the perfect confluence of events. Then, all the experiences I had of being the post producer, associate producer, it actually complimented me being the assistant editor because I know as the assistant editor what to do, but I also can think through what’s the best way I can do my work to set the post producing department up for success.

Also, I can … because a lot of post producers are not super technical, I can act as a translator for both sets of people, for the tech people, like the assistant editors and editors and the post producers who need to finish the show. Sometimes there’s like, we’re not speaking the same language because one group has never touched an Avid. They may know the terms, but they may not understand the work that … for example, how much work a turnover can be.

Sarah Taylor:

Yes.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

So I can work as a translator to both. So when I interview for a job, I am very careful to observe what the editor needs. If the editor is super high maintenance, I am right there, I will cater to your every need. If the editor is very low-key, awesome. My job is so much easier, and I don’t have to worry as much, right?

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Or if I know that there’s an editor who’s not super attention-to-detailly then I have a running list of things to make sure I double check because I know that editor is not going to check that. And it’s just a thing that I learn, and like I said, I tailor myself to my department. So maybe the editor is really high maintenance, and the post producers are very low maintenance and so that they’re on top of what they need from me or maybe the post producers are not super on top of their things, so I will be checking with them like, “Hey, when do I need to do this turnover? When do I need to do that turnover?” So it’s sort of a balancing act of what needs are there that need to be filled, that I can do that service, what value can I provide?

Sarah Taylor:

I think I need you in my life too. How do you navigate all of the, kind of understanding what the editors like remotely? Is it just by having Zoom calls and getting the vibe?

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Right, so one of my first jobs was with an editor I worked with previously and it was a lot of footage and I organized it and it was a lot of very sped footage. So I had to do a lot of speeding up and syncing. So I sent her the bin the way I had done it for her previously because it was in my head like, “Oh, I know how she likes her footage.” And then she was like, “Oh my gosh, I can’t work like this anymore,” because what had happened was she had gone on to another show. On that show, she worked with two other editors who liked their bins organized differently, so she adapted to that and sometimes things are better than your previous way of doing it. So what happened was like she hadn’t realized, I think at that point she was watching the same footage, both slow motion and sped up.

So then, I was like, “Oh, okay, that’s not working for you. How do you want me to do it?” So she sent me a screen grab, “This is what I want the bin to look like.” Great. So I then reorganized the bin, on my current show, my editor and I, we weren’t on the same page about paperwork because paperwork is usually in person. I just would do both binders and remotely … on the previous shows I’d done remotely, the editors just took care of their own paperwork to the point where I didn’t even think to ask the current editor, “How do you want your paperwork done?” And then by day two or three, he was like, “So let’s talk about the continuity.” And I was like, what? Because he’s Canadian. He was calling all of the script supervisor paperwork continuities, and that’s not what I call it from LA, so we had to first get on the same page language-wise.

And then, we talked about, I was like, “Oh.” And so then, we talked about how he wanted his paperwork and then, I made sure every morning to do it that way. It was just a thing that … so it’s just basically lots of communication, lots of checking in. I mean, most people are fairly easygoing, fairly capable. So it’s just, they know what they want, and it’s something, if I get hired, then that’s like one of the first questions like, “How do like your dailies? How do you your paperwork?” And things like me forgetting the paperwork, I have a Google Drive of notes for various things. In my Google Drive, I was like, “Oh, make sure next time for your next job, you ask about the paperwork.” Because it wasn’t intentional. It was just like two jobs. I didn’t have to worry about it and then-

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, totally.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

It just fell out of my head because it wasn’t staring me in the face.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, that totally makes sense.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

I think that’s really … every job we learn something I feel like for myself.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Whether it’d be technical or a new way of telling a story or whatever it might be. That idea or that, I guess practice or ritual of making notes at the end of a project, is that something that you do where you’re like … or when you come across something like, “Oh, this is something I should always be doing, or this is something I should check on.” Do you have your own master the workflow set up? Is your … what you’ve done like your-

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah, so I have a Google Drive of all kinds of notes, screen grabs, processes, write-ups on how to do things because there are so many things that you’re asked to do as an assistant editor, that it’s hard to remember from project to project. For example, this is the first time on this show that I’ve been asked to do a drop frame output for captioning. So the other assistant editor figured it out. I did the write-ups for a future show because usually … and this is also from my producing background, that’s a line item that you give to the finishing house, and they create those outputs. On this show, I think they wanted to save some money, so they’re having assistant editors do it. As it’s something that I’d never had to do before that is … it’s valuable to me to take the time to sit down and write it out.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

And I do screen grabs of menus and I’ll notate on the menu where the thing is.

Sarah Taylor:

That’s amazing.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah, and then, what’s also helpful is when I’m on a project and somebody else doesn’t know how to do something, I was like, “Oh, I have a writeup for that,” and I’ll just shoot off the email. It’s not exactly the same process. Maybe the Avid has changed a little bit because they always upgrade.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

It may be a starting point to train that person or maybe it’s a starting point for us to figure out in this new version of Avid, how would you do it? So it is … and anything I see on forms and everything, I’ll take screen grabs and save it. Just anything that I think is useful that I think … because I don’t have a brain that I can remember all of this stuff. So I will forget … after I do dailies the next show and have to do dailies, “How do I speed up and sync a clip again?”

Sarah Taylor:

What was I doing? Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah, I don’t like reinventing the wheel. To me, that drives me nuts. For every show, I create what’s called the assistant editor checklist, and that is literally everything from dailies to wrap that’s in a checklist because I feel like most shows get very busy and crazy and I’m sleep-deprived. So if I have to do three turnovers of like music turnover, sound turnover, picture turnover, I don’t want to read four different spec pages every single time I do a turnover. So every time I do a turnover, I wait for feedback like, “Oh, you missed this, or I want you to do this differently.” Once the turnover has been done and accepted and I haven’t heard anything, I add it to my assistant editor checklist like, “Here is all the things you …” every single step and it’s literally a checklist so that I don’t ever have to think about how to create that particular turnover again.

It served me, on my current show, I got a call at 11:00, you needed to do the sound turnover for an episode that wasn’t mine. I was like, “Oh my gosh,” that’s stressful when you don’t know the episode because you don’t know the pitfalls or whatever is particular to that episode, but it was also a time when it was stressful, because my aunt had passed away earlier in the week. I was not thinking super clearly all week because of that. It was 11:00 at night after a really long day. I think I also was coming down with the cold. So the checklist was really nice, and that like all the thinking that had to be done to do this turnover was already done. I just had to follow the steps. It’s also a way of not missing an element like not, “Oh, I didn’t forget to do the way files. I didn’t forget to do the QuickTime reference.” It’s all idiot-proofed.

Sarah Taylor:

You are blowing my mind. I feel like I need to-

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Because I made a lot of mistakes.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, I think that’s great.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah, and this is all from the dumb mistakes I’ve made over-

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

It’s like, “Okay, I don’t want to do that again.”

Sarah Taylor:

That’s really smart, and saving yourself from extra stress, because I find for myself too, I’m in a smaller market, so I often … I’ve just recently in the last few years, been able to bring assistants on, like just bring on my own person to be like, “Okay, you’re going to be my assistant. I’m hiring you for this.”

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Sure.

Sarah Taylor:

Then trying to teach the person what I want, I’m like, “I don’t know. I change every time I do a show,” or it’s always different. To have access to, “Here’s everything that I do. Here’s the step-by-step. That’s amazing. That’s such a brilliant thing to think about.”

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Well, and also then when I start a new show … because again, I forget what happens from series to series, I can look at the old checklist.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

How did I do it there? And it may not be the same process again, but at least, it’s like, “Oh, I remember I had to do this.” I should maybe do it on this show. At least check, do I need to do it here? For example, I do a lot of mentoring, so I had a friend who was in non-scripted work and we were trying forever to get them scripted and he called me, he’s like, “I’m getting ready for an interview. Can you just talk me through it?” I was like, “Yes,” and we talked about everything and then, I sent him my checklist. I was like, “This is from dailies to wrap, everything. Even if you don’t know what it is, it’s a paper form of what one process is. So you might have done some of this as a reality assistant, but it’s like a jumping off point and you can always call me and we can work through … we have this guide that’s not nothing.”

So it’s just something that I started doing for myself and then, I’ve just found it’s very useful to … and the assistant editor checklist, I make it and I share it with everybody on my team, all the assistant editors. I’m always like … obviously, I’ll make mistakes on it because of typos, or it’ll be organized in a way that maybe in my fugue state made sense, but later on when I’m doing a turnover, it’s like, “Why is this line item here? This doesn’t make any sense.” So I encourage them to change it or whatever. It’s also, if there’s three teams, three editors, three assistants, I think it’s nice for the finishing departments to get the same elements from every team so that you’re not … if we can all use the same presets.

Sarah Taylor:

Yes.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

If we can all use all the same things coming from the same teams to the same departments, I think would be really nice. So it’s not like I demand that people to use the checklist. It’s just like, “Hey, if we can all get on the same page, same presets, that would be really nice.” One of the things that I’ve done on this show for the first time is when I did the turnovers, the other assistant editor taught me how to save all my individual presets for every output and every element creation. So we all saved it to one particular Avid profile. Then, we were able to drag the presets the other person created to ours. So when he figured out that drop frame thing, I was grabbing all of his presets. I figured out all the, I don’t know, the sound EDLs presets, so he grabbed all of mine. So it was just really nice to not have to reinvent the wheel over and over again and just make it easier. It’s a little thing, but it makes it easier.

Sarah Taylor:

I really enjoy your approach of the … like you’re being collaborative with it.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Because sometimes I find there’ll be a tech issue and you’re like … at least I did this when I was younger, kind of ashamed to ask, “How do I do this?” So I love how you’re doing it where you’re like, “Well, he figured it out so then we did it.” It’s like your team, which you are, and we should be, we should all be a team.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

It’s a very competitive industry. Early on, my first show was a very heavy visual effects show, and the assistant editor at the time that trained me, showed me a very quick way of labeling the show with a subcap creator that somebody else developed online. It was like … because it was my first visual effects show, it was just standard, “Oh, this is a really quick way to label the show.” On my next show, I taught the assistant editors how to do it, how to do that. I was a producer at that point in that show, and one of the assistant editors was like, “I love this.” And I was like, isn’t it amazing? Don’t you want to teach everyone? He’s like, “No, I want to be the only one who knows it. So I look like the fastest assistant editor.”

I don’t like that mentality. I am very much a rising tide that lifts all boats. I don’t really feel the need to compete because I think there’s just so much work and even if there was a lack of work, that I don’t like the cutthroat element to what our industry can have. To me, I would rather build the relationships and make it a pleasant experience, and in general, I think that’s why I’ve been able to keep up my career after having left LA is because based on the strengths of the bonds that I’ve created, I think people enjoy working with me. I think that people can count on me and depend on me. I mentor people and I help people find work so that I am present in their minds when opportunities come up like, “Oh yeah, Bettina is still around.”

So I think in general, if maybe I were more cutthroat, maybe I would be further along in my career, but I am comfortable. Maybe not having gone as far, but I’m comfortable with who I am and the relationships I’ve built and the experiences I’ve had rather than just having that, “I want to be the best.” I mean, I would love to be the best. I love to win an Oscar and Emmy or whatever, but I would rather be able to just overall, have a pleasant and happy experience than somehow falsely portray myself as the fastest assistant editor, I think that’s just silly.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, I’m with you 100%. That’s great. Good advice too for people that are up and coming in industry. I feel like it’s those connections we make and the relationships we have. It’s all … I find it’s mostly word of mouth in this industry. Even from what I’ve heard in LA it’s a lot of word of mouth.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Well, and the hilarious thing about that particular assistant editor is it is such a small industry, that particular show … so I went from producer on that show to assistant editor because there was a family emergency. So I had to leave in the middle of the show and I had to leave LA for four months, and when I came back, they needed affiliate assistant editor just to wrap the show.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

So I came back as an assistant editor and this guy was still on. I ended up recutting the season finale, which ended up being the series finale. It was like this big deal, the studio ponied up $30,000 to reopen the show and this and that, and it was like this possibility that maybe would be … there’s a better chance of it getting picked up for season three and it didn’t happen. That recut earned me, had there been a season three, an editor’s chair on that show. And later on I got onto another show and again, when people look at your resume, they kind of know who you’ve worked with. I had heard that he had told everybody that had it gone to season three, he was going to be an editor on that season. It was like absolutely not true.

Sarah Taylor:

No.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

It’s just one of those things where there is also a pragmatic way of looking at this, and that your reputation will follow you.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

It’s too small. It’s way too small of an industry. So, when I came back to that particular show, he was the only original assistant editor left, and he was basically cashing a paycheck, and the other two assistant editors who were fill-ins were struggling the entire time because he was not helping them. There’s value in being on a show long-term because you know all of the skeletons in the closet and everything and he had another job, so he had the deal that he struck with the producer, was that he would come in the evenings and help out with this other thing, but he just did not make himself available to anyone. It was very clear he was cashing a paycheck and buying dinner and walking out the door.

And I saw this because I had been there at the beginning, and I’m seeing this at the end, and it just made me crazy, because it’s like, “Oh my God, you could be helping these women and you’re not, and you’re just cashing a paycheck, because the producers were all out doing the onlines and mixes.” Nobody is seeing what is going on. I was very vocal. I’m like, “This guy is just passing and cashing a paycheck. You’re not getting your value. He’s not helping.” So he lost his standing with that team, and it was also, the team that was talking to me about all the things he was bragging about. He wasn’t very positive in their eyes either. So now you have two sets of people that are not particularly impressed with you.

It’s just a thing where that stuff follows you around, incrementally, and then there’s a watershed moment where nobody wants to work with you anymore.

Sarah Taylor:

100%. Yeah, I’ve seen that happen a lot.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

I don’t know, we make television. We make entertainment. It shouldn’t be-

Sarah Taylor:

It should be fun, right? It shouldn’t be secrets that we can’t … like there’s a bajillion YouTube videos out there now. Now, you can really research stuff. So let’s share, let’s not keep everything too closed.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Well, and also, we’re competing with everything for people’s attention. It’s getting harder and harder to get people to pay attention to TV because there’s so many other things that are out there. So I don’t know, it’s going to be harder and harder to be on shows that go long term and things like that. So it should be a pleasant experience because we’re always going to have to bounce around from project to project. It’s going to be rare to find a modern family that goes for 11 seasons.

Sarah Taylor:

Nothing is a guarantee.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

No. So it should be nice. Not like, “Ugh, here’s my new next crappy team to work with.”

Sarah Taylor:

I like it. I like your attitude. So your Google Drive is a must have, I feel like in your edit suite.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

What are other things that you need to have in your edit suite?

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

I have a very specific planner that I have that I get from Staples every year. I’m going to show you, I know it’s an audio podcast, but like you can see it has like a year.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

And what I like about it is that it has two things, it has a page dedicated to every day. So I can write down every single thing, but it also has the month view.

Sarah Taylor:

I love it.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

The reason this helps me is that I have a to-do list for every specific day because I have in my head, two bosses, I have the head of post-production who’s going to ask me to be doing things and I have my editor who’s going to be asking me to do things. It’s useful for me when somebody’s like, “Hey, when did you do that turnover? I don’t know. It’s dawned and saw it in my head.” If I look at my planner, I can tell you what date it is.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

And then the month view, when I get my schedule from the head of post, when is the online? When is the music? whatever it is, if I fill it in, then I can sort of backtrack and figure out what I need to do when. So for me, I have the wide angle lens of the project as a whole on what needs to happen, usually for the head of post and then, my day to day, what needs to happen. That’s usually for the editor. Then, I have all kinds of writing things. My black pen is for writing the to-do list, but I have three different highlighters. Orange is for all the stuff that still needs to be done from previous days that I haven’t gotten done. Blue is for stupid little techie things that I learned on this show. For example, the notes that I took to create that drop frame, that’s in blue so that I can go back later and write up the thing.

Yellow is all the … my to-do list will also encompass, “Oh shoot, I got to make the dental appointments for the kids.” So when I go through the planner, it’s like when I have time to do the home stuff, all I have to do is check the yellows. Yeah, so it’s a way of balancing, because I don’t want to have to do 47 to-do lists. It’s all in one place but it’s also a record of things. So there’s accountability.

Sarah Taylor:

Very cool. I just bought a very similar notebook yesterday.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Cool.

Sarah Taylor:

For 2023. So a bit smaller, but yes. I love the month view and then, yeah, I have a DV so that’s … yeah, the color coding, I think that’s really clever. Now, what has been something that you found challenging in your career that you’ve overcome, and how did that go?

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

I think the two things were basically, I felt very overwhelmed at the prospect of being an assistant editor because I felt like there was just this magnitude of things I didn’t know, like the tech stuff … I think now kids are more tech-savvy. They’re on their apps and they’re editing for TikTok and things like that. The first time I took an editing class, it was like, “You can separate video from audio?” That was having to retrain my brain. Even though I was studying editing and I had done the online workflows and everything in school, I did not feel like I was prepared to take on an actual job, and it was very true. It wasn’t until I got that job with the assistant editor where we started at the same time because of the block shooting, that I got the education that I needed.

So what I could have done differently is that I could have put myself out there, stayed after hours, asked for help, asked to shadow, and it’s not that those opportunities weren’t available to me. I just had a lot of inhibitions. I was so inhibited just that … well, like what you said when you were younger, you didn’t want to ask anybody when you didn’t know how to do something. That was me to a tee. It was like to the point where it was just … when I think it took me seven years to become an assistant editor, it’s like, “Oh my gosh.” It’s one of the reasons I do so much mentoring now is to demystify the process.

Sarah Taylor:

Yes. Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

So a friend of mine who I think felt very similarly, I had her shadow me on a show. The very first thing I did is I’m going to show you this visual effect that the editor asked me to do, and I had no idea how to do it. Here is all the things that I did to try to get to that visual effect. So I had already gone through the process, but I knew she was coming in. So I saved that example because even the idea of, “Oh my gosh, what if an editor wants me to score a scene? Oh, there’s so much music in the world and I don’t know all these scores, and how would I do it?” I tend to overthink things and it was so overwhelming.

On one of my shows when it came to music, the editor was like, “Well, I look at the titles of the pieces,” which was like … it was a great piece where he was like … we were on this show where the composer for Vikings gave us … was our composer. He gave us the whole library for the cues for Vikings. So, he was like, “The rape of Golgotha isn’t going to work for this marriage scene.” That’s true. Then, he showed me how to sort the bin by duration. He goes, “If the scene is 45 seconds, the first thing I’m going to do is I’m going to look at all the 45-second cues and just see if … do any of those have the correct feeling?” It was getting over my own inhibitions to go, this may seem overwhelming.

If you open yourself up and ask the questions, somebody has already invented the wheel. You just have to figure out who has done it. Can they teach you? Are they willing to teach you and just be able to put yourself out there. So that was a big, just self-imposed stupid insecurity that I had done, like I had done to myself. Then, the other thing was, when I moved to Chicago, it was just a very logistical thing, how do I keep working? I’m not particularly interested in doing independent films. I’m not particularly interested in doing commercials. How do I actually stay relevant? How do I connect with the people out here who are making television?

So I really worked my contacts. I really tried to bring values to the shows that I got on and just be that person that somebody wants to work with again and not be shy about asking for … in the show that I worked on here, I ended up becoming an editor, but I asked for that.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, I think that’s huge.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Nobody discovered me, but I saw that there was an opening and I asked for it, which Bettina from 10 years ago would’ve been like, “I hope they remember that I work here,” and now, I’ve gotten the job because it’s not that people are not interested in helping, it’s that once again, there’s so much that are demanding people’s attention that there is value in raising your hand.

Sarah Taylor:

100%.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

And that can feel … if you’re a person that’s not used to doing that. That can feel out of your comfort zone, or maybe you’re being too pushy or too ambitious. Ambitious for women seems to be like a negative thing. So those are things that I’ve had to make myself comfortable with and go, “This is not a bad thing to ask.” And the worst thing that can happen is that they say no, and if they say no, they say no.

Sarah Taylor:

At least they know that you are wanting it, right.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

That’s the biggest thing. We don’t put ourselves out there. The opportunities could disappear, and I think that’s a really good piece of advice. What has been one highlight from your career so far?

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

It’s been cutting on my show. It’s a show called Work in Progress, it went for two seasons. Lilly Wachowski of Matrix fame was one of the exec producers, and I would never have imagined that my first editing job would be for her like that-

Sarah Taylor:

Amazing.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah, and I just learned so much, and it was an opportunity for me to work on a show I really believe in. There’s a really strong, powerful and healthy message about mental health and getting therapy, and these are all things I believe in. So I think it’s this amazing thing that not only did I get to be an editor, after moving to Chicago, which I never expected. I got to work for Lilly, which I saw The Matrix in high school. Again, I never would’ve expected.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

I got to work on a good show. So many things that I’ve done is like, it’s fine, but it’s not something that I feel strongly about with my heart and soul and the things I was able to be very proud of the show. So just those, for one show to check all those boxes. Do I want other amazing experiences? Do I want the statues? Yes, but just to have those things, I feel very fortunate and very like, “Oh my gosh, what an amazing outcome for a decision I made that I wasn’t sure about, to move back to Chicago.” It also taught me that there are possibilities out there. When I was telling people in LA that I was going to move to Chicago and try to work for the Wachowskis, it was very much a, “That’s nice.” and I understand that better, that reaction better now.

I also have given myself some more credit. I see possibility where other people don’t, and that doesn’t mean I’m stupid. That means there is patterns and things that maybe other people dismiss where I go, “No, there might be an opportunity there and there’s no reason not to try.” Even I didn’t think about, “Oh, maybe I’ll cut for them.” It taught me there are more possibilities than most people imagine and there are more possibilities than maybe you even imagine, and to just keep yourself open to those things, and like you said, raise your hand, put yourself out there, because why not? You never know, the first person who actually ended up helping me become an assistant editor, I had this list of all the people who could help me.

He wasn’t even on my list. It just happened that he was the one. So you just never know where opportunities may come from. Just be open to it.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. That’s amazing. I had one short film that made it into Sundance, and I was like, it didn’t even ever cross my mind, that that would be an option.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, there’s moments where you’re like, really, possibilities are endless. We could really be doing all sorts of fun, awesome stuff. I think you saying being proud of the work you’re doing, that’s huge for me too. I might be working on smaller documentaries, but the messages and the stories that we’re telling, if I feel like I’m impacting somebody’s life and it’s impacting my life and making me a better human, then I’m winning triple, right?

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Doing the job I love, meeting great people and sharing stories that are so important.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Totally.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. I think we’re really lucky in our world.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah. That 2% that likes their job.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Yes. You’ve talked in the past about being a parent in post-production and it’s something that we don’t always talk about or it’s only asked of the women, “Oh, what’s it like being … how do you balance?” I do want to have a conversation about what is it like … how has your life changed as a parent in post versus what it was like before? What’s different for you?

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

It was a huge journey, and in grad school specifically … they had this thing where you could meet with an editor over a lunch, like a group of us could meet and you could talk about her, and this female editor, and during lunch, I raised my hand and I was like, “I’d love to know your perspective on being a parent.” She laughed and was like, “Huh, good luck and then, turned.” It was the most infuriating experience to this day of my life, because this is a thing I love to talk about. I 100% believe if you want … you can make it work to be both in post and be a parent, but there are so many things I would’ve done differently, had I understood how difficult it would be. Post-production is very demanding in terms of … especially if it’s a harder project, you could be there for hours.

So one of the things that I wish I had done differently is one, I wish it didn’t take me seven years but two, I wish I had built wealth, not because I want the fancy cars or anything like that, but it would have set me up to be in a better school district. To be able to hire help. To be able to hire services, like laundry services, because the first few years when my kids were young, I was doing it all and it was insane. It’s not because I didn’t have the money. I mean, I didn’t have as much as I wanted, but it was this mentality of I didn’t grow up with nannies or babysitters. I didn’t grow up with cleaning services and things. So these are very real things that can help and contribute to not only your home life, but your mental health as well.

Because if you want to be a creative and a parent, then ideally there are some things that you can farm out. In this moment in time, since I’m working from home, I have to do less of that because not having a commute, I could be doing an export and I can start a load of laundry. That is very doable and plus, with the pandemic, there was some hesitation of bringing other people into the home. So it is a huge balancing act and the things … if there’s anything you can do to set yourself up so that you can compartmentalize the things you don’t have to take care of, so that you can be more present for your kids so that you can give yourself time and space to recharge, so you can be the creative.

One of my favorite shows, I would be thinking about during my long commutes back and forth, because I would think about story points and how is this better? How can we better talk about this second? And that’s because I had that one hour commute. Whereas, I don’t think about story like that right now in my work from home job, because every moment that I’m not working on the show, I could be doing a chore.

Sarah Taylor:

Yes.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

For me, becoming a parent has been about all of this time I had outside of the show now goes towards … because the women usually do all the mental load work as well. Doctor’s appointments and Tracy’s birthday is coming. I got to go pick up her gift. So okay, if you are responsible for the mental load, if you are responsible for the kids, if you’re responsible for the cleaning and the cooking, how does that get restructured in your home? What things are going to help you get that? So if I could talk to Bettina from 2008 who had just graduated, I would’ve been like, “You want to be a parent? So now you have to think smartly because you’re not going to be one for years. So now is the time where you can put into making all that money to set aside to buy that house in that code school district to hire the help.”

And that was just … if that editor had talked to me like that, that would’ve been very helpful, because I’m learning that by stumbling into it, and it was like after the fact. It’s just something I … this is why I do so much mentoring. I would love to talk to young women about that because I don’t … it’s not that I think you can have it all. That I think is a harder mentality. I think there should be grace in what you dream of what you want, but if you don’t achieve that, or if you feel like you have to change your goals, it’s not that you’re any kind of failure or anything, but I also think if we can mentor each other and talk to each other and sort of teach each other our lessons, we’re just setting up the next generation and the next group a little bit better.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

If on some level the message, is you got to do it all. On some level, that’s kind of baked in and so, how do we empower instead of, I don’t know, setting ourselves up for … trying to be super women beyond what’s reasonable.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, exhaustion. You know what, it’s okay to have a career and be passionate about your career and also love your kids and be a passionate about your family.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

It’s okay to have both of those things. Sometimes work is going to get busy and your kid is going to spend time with the babysitter, or your kid is going to spend time with grandma, and it’s great for them to have relationships with other humans too.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

100%

Sarah Taylor:

It’s great for a kid to see their parents doing work they love, because we’re the only 2% percent.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yes. No, it’s absolutely true.

Sarah Taylor:

It’s huge.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah, it is just … I have friends who have a hard time giving their kids to other caretakers and things, and I get that. I felt that.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

You’re saying them building other relationships, it’s absolutely true, my kids love their babysitters. My kids love their grandma, my mom. So, it’s also letting yourself build a village in a society that doesn’t really inherently have villages. So again, there is some baked in resistance that we can break down and go, “No, these are the positives of you having this passionate thing.” Also, just being happy. I’m a better mom if I’m happy. I would say the worst time was when I couldn’t figure out how to make everything work from Chicago, and I didn’t have that creative outlet, and I was not a great mom. I was just miserable, and just having the work has made me a much better mom because I’m more fulfilled, right?

Sarah Taylor:

100%.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

So I can be a much better mom if I’m happy.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Yeah, and I think that’s another thing … or this could be a whole other conversation, but how we as humans often and maybe as moms or maybe even just parents, we identify as I’m the mom or I’m the editor, or I’m the whatever, instead of just being a whole human who has a job that you love who has a kid, and you can be all those things, but you’re not identified as the thing. I think that’s where it can be hard, where you’re like, “But I’m the mom and I need to do X, Y, Z,” and whatever.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

I’m laughing because when I got married at my wedding, people were like, “Oh, you look so beautiful.” And I was like, I’m so much more than a pretty face. I work at a TV show. I just got my master’s,” like it was this, like …

Sarah Taylor:

We do need to say out loud. No, I do this cool job, and I also am educated, and I am-

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Because we are all those things. We’re not just the one thing or just the job or just the mom. Anyway, you have to go to work.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yes, I’m about to, I’m getting dinged on Slack.

Sarah Taylor:

Yes. Okay. So one last question. What can we watch or what’s coming up next for you that we can all tune into and just celebrate you and your awesomeness?

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Currently, I’m on a show called Class of 09. It’s supposed to come out sometime next year on FX. It’s on Hulu for FX.

Sarah Taylor:

Okay.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

It stars, Kate Mara, and it’s an FBI thriller. So that’s currently one of the project that I’m on.

Sarah Taylor:

Very fun. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for spending time with us today. I loved everything you said. You had so much great advice in there. So for all those young assistants out there, this is a repeat, I think, episode to listen to and I feel like Bettina, I think you have a second career of being maybe an educator of some sort because, well, you have an education background, but you need to share that Google Drive.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

You can make some money off of it.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

It’s hysterical.

Sarah Taylor:

Anyway, thank you so much. Enjoy your workday and we will hopefully talk soon.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Thank you.

Sarah Taylor:

Take care.

Bettina Zachariah Treviranus:

Bye.

Sarah Taylor:

Thank you so much for joining us today, and a big thanks goes to Bettina for taking the time to sit with me. Special thanks goes to Alison Dowler and Kim McTaggart CCE. The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall. Additional ADR Recording by Andrea Rusch. Original music created by Chad Blain and Sound Strip. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. The CCE is proud to support HireBIPOC. HireBIPOC is the definitive and ubiquitous industry-wide roster of Canadian BIPOC creatives and crew working in screen-based industries. Check out hirebipoc.ca to hire your next group or create a profile and get hired.

Speaker 5:

The CCE is a nonprofit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member, please visit our website, www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

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The Editors Cut

Episode 075 – EditCon 2022: Learning from the Best

The Editor's Cut - Episode 75 - EditCon 2022: Learning from the Best

Episode 075 - EditCon 2022: Learning from the Best

Today?s episode is part 3 of our 4 part series covering EditCon 2022 Brave New World.

Today?s panel is Learning from the Best – Documentary editing is a craft of perpetual learning. Not only do our tools change constantly, but so do approaches to storytelling. Mentorship has long been at the heart of developing the next generation of talent in all mediums, and documentary is no exception. It can be difficult for new and aspiring editors to gain access to the suite to sit, watch, listen, and learn the intangible skill of editing. Pull up a seat as two apprentices interview their mentors on their approach to storytelling, and the importance of passing the torch to the next generation.

This episode is generously sponsored by Adobe.

Adobe EditCon 2021 Sponsor

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The Editor?s Cut – Episode 075 – EditCon 2022: Learning from the Best

Sarah Taylor:

This episode was generously sponsored by Adobe.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

The mentee has a lot to offer the mentor. I think that’s maybe a misconception about mentorship is that it’s a top-down approach. And it’s somebody who’s, I’m going to show you, you know, I’m going to teach you X, Y, and Z. But, I think one thing that’s come across really obviously in all of the conversations we’ve had here is that openness and honesty, and it has to be a two-way conversation.

Brina Romanek:

Feeling like you have a safe space to make mistakes and to play. You know? Because I think, end of the day, one of the most fun things about editing is that you get to play.

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

I would use one word, is empathy and respect. And also, knowing that you are working with a very particular part of our being, which is our fragility, our insecurity, our gift as artists. The fact that none of those things are absolute, but they’re all part of our humanity.

Sarah Taylor:

Hello and welcome to The Editor’s Cut. I’m your host Sarah Taylor. We would like to point out that the lands on which we have created this podcast and that many of you may be listening to us from are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we are on ancestral territory that has long served as a place where indigenous peoples have lived, met, and interacted. We honour, respect, and recognize these nations that have never relinquished their rights or sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many contributions, and the concerns that impact indigenous individuals and communities. Land acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.

Today’s episode is part three of our four-part series covering EditCon 2022, Brave New World. Documentary editing is a craft of perpetual learning. Not only do our tools change constantly, but so do approaches to storytelling. Mentorship has long been at the heart of developing the next generation of talent in all mediums, and documentary is no exception. It can be difficult for new and aspiring editors to gain access to the suite, to sit, watch, listen, and learn the intangible skill of editing. Pull up a seat as two apprentices interview their mentors on their approach to storytelling and the importance of passing the torch to the next generation.

 

[show open]

And action.

This is The Editor’s Cut.

A CCE podcast.

Exploring, exploring, exploring the art

of picture editing.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Welcome to Learning from the Best. My name is Chris Mutton. I’ll be your moderator for our panel today. We have an exciting discussion lined up that will hopefully bring out a better understanding of mentorship. Mentorship can be kind of hard to define, comes in many forms, from mentors who follow a lecture format in a large group all the way down to one-on-one mentor pairs. So today we’ll be hearing from two such pairs. We’ll start off with our first group, hear about their experience. Then we’ll move on to our second group. And lastly, sort of bring everybody together for an informal round table discussion. And I’ll be taking a backseat for the most part.

We’re going to try something a little new and have our conversations led by our mentees. In our first group, we have multiple award-winning documentary filmmaker and editor Michèle Hozer. With over 40 documentary editing credits, including the critically acclaimed Shake Hands with The Devil and her directorial debut, Sugar Coated, she is a mainstay of the Canadian doc world in Canada. Michèle is joined by her mentee, Brina Romanek, a documentary filmmaker and editor of the Lifestyle documentary Radical Retirees and editor of the doc feature a Cure for the Common Classroom, which she edited with Michèle’s guidance. Welcome Michèle and Brina.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

Hi, thank you.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

In our second mentorship pair, we are joined by Ricardo Acosta, CCE. Also a household name in documentary editing in Canada. Ricardo won the CCE award for best editing in documentary for Marmato in 2014, and is the editor of acclaimed films 15 to Life, The Silence of Others, and Herman’s House. He’s joined by mentee and documentary editor Jordan Kawai. Jordan holds his master’s degree in media studies from Ryerson and has assisted and edited documentaries including Bangla Surf Girls, in which Ricardo served as mentor and story editor. Welcome Ricardo and Jordan. And just to start things off, Jordan, how did you meet Ricardo and how did this mentorship begin with you guys?

Jordan Kawai:

I first met Ricardo when I was in graduate school at Ryerson, the documentary media MFA. And Ricardo was brought in for a class critique and I shared a piece of my film and had Ricardo give me some criticism about it, which was the very first time I met him. And then fast-forward two years later, I met Ricardo again in a job opportunity where I would be assisting Ricardo in a film that was produced by the NFB. And at that time it was called Hispaniola. The name later changed to Stateless.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Awesome. How was it like to have Ricardo look at your work?

Jordan Kawai:

I mean, it was one of those interesting things where I– it was kind of like, foreshadowing a lot of the conversations that were to come. A lot of things surrounding, yeah, simplicity and minimalism and that, and one of the mantras that I kind of, like I always tell Ricardo, at the beginning of every project, I write at the top of my notebook which is “Surrender yourself to your footage.” And that was one of the first things that he had said to me, and that was something that I kind of brought forward later in all my projects.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Excellent. All right. I’ll let you take it away. Go for it.

Jordan Kawai:

Yeah, So Ricardo, when we first met, we had– it was an interview for the project Hispaniola. And at that point in time I was assist editing on a few projects and a lot of them?a lot of my role at that point was moreso coming in and making sure, as assistant editor, that the project was?you know, the wheels were all oiled and it was all afloat. And one of the first things that you said, was kind of like, music to my ears, I was pining for an opportunity to work collaboratively and kind of, shadow an editor and director. And, I don’t know if you remember saying this to me, but you said you didn’t want, an assistant editor who was just going to be a ghost in the room, and you wanted someone who was kind of there for the process. And, I was wondering how that kind of came to be and why that’s what you wanted at that point in time for that project.

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

You know Jordan, for me, as I had said to you before, I was a wonderful slave slash assistant editor for a while before I started editing my films. But I also was a very privileged assistant editor because I was able to observe and participate of the creative process– on the creative process of the filmmaking. And the storytelling, in the editing suite, and being able to– to be there, in situ, when the director and the editor and the producer were discussing the story. And I have realized that, in the times of digitizing footage, the role of an assistant editor has been diminished to someone who come, in a very impersonal way, when you are not around, to prepare the material for you.

It was becoming more and more a lonely job of an editor with a footage and a director, but where is the assistant on that? And also, where is the assistant that is also a wonderful filmmaker who I can perceive as a great editor, you know– in progress and where that editor will find the role models, the place where that young assistant can learn how to conduct and how to be, and how to– what is the role of an editor in the editing suite. That’s not something you learn in a school, at Ryerson. That’s something that you have to learn also, assisting other editors. I think.

And you know, I saw on you, from the beginning, that the light of a filmmaker, of someone who took his job and his dream of telling stories very seriously. And the way you talk about editing, I went like, “Okay, this is a fantastic opportunity.” Because a lot of people do not have that drive. And for me it was very, very special at that moment to say, “Okay, here is someone who can also be my buddy in the editing suite.”

Jordan Kawai:

What I really appreciated early on when I was working with you, Ricardo was watching rushes together. And I think as someone who was kind of new to that realm and new to that industry of just… Well, I kind of– What I learned from screening live with you and you would start watching rushes and you’d hit that space bar, pause it, and then you would ask me, “What is the heart of this scene for you?” And I think throwing that question and always having that ability to stop and pause and really be on the ball of figuring out if you shake this down, what it is at the heart of something or the spirit of something.

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

At the end of the day we have to deal with tools of dramaturgia to put together a story and it’s a four-minute story. What is the heart of that? What we are doing, we might be wrong, we might be having challenge in finding what is the best. But we have to really be brave and go for it. And based on that thing that we find that is the heart and the most meaningful, build around that. Which is what we did in that scene, also, no? Start embroidering around that idea. How do we present that? Because for me, ultimately, it’s a choreography that is not dictated by the brain only, but also by the emotion of the moment of the story that we are trying to tell. And also of the character. What the character needs and not so much about what I want the character to do, sometimes.

Jordan Kawai:

This was part of a film where that character’s arc didn’t actually make it into the feature film. It was actually– That whole character was then used for a short film that I edited later, which ended up being the opening scene in a different variation way for that film. But it was interesting because there was a lot of elements and a lot of devices that were also part of the feature. And one of them being the use of radio. And I remember Ricardo, early on, one of the obstacles was how to give a lot of the backstory and context of what was happening, between Dominican Republic and Haiti, and this idea of using radio not just for context piece, but to show some of that temperature of what some of the antagonism between those two countries were. So this idea that radio is something that is pepper corned and interwoven throughout the entire piece. For this particular scene, I remember it being more of an exercise about visual storytelling and that’s one of the things that I was really excited about when Ricardo and I worked on this was to not use any voice at the beginning. The radio wasn’t used at the beginning and just try to create a story of one of the protagonists’ father living in Dominican Republic and he was born in Haiti and just showing his daily routine of going to work in the sugar cane fields.

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

One thing that we do is spend a lot of time also talking, and for me, it’s very important that my assistant editor or the associate editor is part of those conversations when we are looking at rushes of footage and then sharing with the director what I saw. What I saw sometimes could be a little bit different to what the director saw and he compliments that, but also to what I can foreshadow in the scenes that we find very powerful and how the story we want to tell can be enhanced with the elements, the jewels of this?you know– that are hidden within the footage. And one thing for me that was very important always was there is a subliminal character of hate here, which is on the way in the radio wave. And that it was a thermometer, as you said, of the temperature of the hate speech and the hostility against Haitians in the country.

I always remember we spent a lot of time also talking and sharing with you with what I call the rituals of the footage of the character, of the subject, of the story. And what is the impression that we are painting with a scene that will then become part of a bigger impression that we are painting with the whole story and the whole film. And one thing that I find with you, that we are very much enjoying in our collaboration, is how you understand that and how you incorporate that. We also have these conversations about… It’s complex because sometimes young editors have a hard time having something emotionally because they come from a brain is sometimes perception of everything is about the intellect and not about the emotion. And I come from a different kind of experience with you where I always said to you, it’s more about what you don’t see and what you feel, the way you are trying to compose.

And it’s also always for us not about the trend, but about the essence. And those are things that we, Jordan and me, spend a lot of time talking about when we’re editing and sharing. Sometimes, I also like to do something like, when I’m cutting something and I think I’m excited about it, I will ask him, look what I did. And this idea of sharing like a tutorial, and a discovery with a friend and it’s also about sharing with him why I made the choices that I made. Why? Because I think that all I can share in my mentoring of someone who I think is a great editor on his own and it’s a little bit of my own creative process and my fears and my accomplishments, but there is no book about that.

Jordan Kawai:

One thing I think I’ve gleaned from you, mainly from your relationships with directors, but also I feel that towards you as well is this, is how trust plays in that relationship and how you build that and how that can really obviously really shape a film because it’s a process to begin with.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

I think that’s really a hard thing to teach. Right? And it’s interesting because there’s so many hard skills to editing, but one of the soft skills is all the people stuff in the edit suite and how you deal with a director in the edit suite and how you deal with their emotions as they look at their film coming together and maybe what their expectations were against what?s happening can be very emotional for them. And that kind of skill is so different from Codex and hard drives and all that other stuff that’s in the background. So it’s interesting. I think that is a really important part of mentorship is those people skills.

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

So we are collaborating in a film called Betrayal right now and there’s a scene where the director is on the scene. The first time she met the subject, the subject used to be in Canada. He got evicted from Canada and now he’s living in a country in Africa. And the first time that she met the subject is there, in Africa in a refugee camp. And when I was looking at the footage I see that moment, which was filmed in a very informal way because no one ever thought that this going to be part of the story, where she said to him, “Oh nice to meet you.” And then he said, “Finally. Nice to meet you.” And has been talking to each other for so long. But that is on camera, in the center of camera. And then what I have for the next 40 minutes, it’s a very raw but honest and warm situation where this man, our main subject is showing to her the refugee camp and talking about, since they have happened to him, that we may know more or not prior to that scene.

So it was very interesting because it was like, okay, this is going to be a very difficult conversation to have with the director to say, okay, we can make a very evasive scene where he’s talking to a ghost and using shots that are not our best. Or we can try to make a scene that is very warm and authentic where you are on it. I knew that was going to be a conversation that was going to be very difficult. But before that, I also shared this with Jordan and asked his opinion. And we both said, okay, let’s prepare each other. And I said to Jordan, “Okay, please support me on presenting this case to the director.”

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Backup.

Jordan Kawai:

Yeah.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

What was the reaction? How’d it go?

Jordan Kawai:

I think it’s ongoing, I would say. Ricardo?

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Oh, okay, all right. Yeah, it’s not quite there yet, eh?

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

I think that everybody felt the strain of it and the authenticity and Jordan did a great job on putting together a scene that we have choreographed and discussed. And I think it opened a whole new avenue for us also to feel more empowered about how we are going to deal with similar situations through the whole story.

Jordan Kawai:

Yeah, and it’s interesting, Ricardo, that is an example. Because we talked about the idea of surrender yourself to the footage. And I’m thinking about it more and another thing in that example, but in previous films too, where I’ve watched you challenge the footage and I think that means also challenging the director on some of the expectations of what a scene may or may not be. And I find that kind of interesting. What is that dialogue and having that confidence to A, try something but B, to challenge what that scene can possibly be. And I think the one you’re bringing up as an example of that, for sure.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Thank you very much for the discussion. Hang tight for a bit. We’re going to bring you back in just at the end for a sort of round table chat about mentorship. Now we’ll bring in Michèle and Brina.

Hey, how are you guys doing?

Brina Romanek:

Good, how are you?

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Excellent. Welcome back. Now something that not everybody listening today probably knows is that you guys met through the CCE mentorship pilot program, which started in 2019. So maybe Brina, tell us a little bit about that experience and how you were paired with Michèle.

Brina Romanek:

I was working as an assistant editor at the time and I was already a member of CCE when I got the email. And I really felt similar to what Ricardo was mentioning in terms of this idea of that sometimes the assistant editor is the ghost. I felt like the ghost. And I had made a couple of my own films and I felt like I needed to learn, but I needed someone to help me push my own boundaries. So I applied, and I got accepted, and I found out that I was paired with Michèle, who I then very quickly went and googled.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

I’m sure you were pretty happy when you googled her.

Brina Romanek:

Pretty pleased. Pretty pleased. And very intimidated.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

Nah.

Brina Romanek:

Starting off, Michèle, I’m kind of curious. I know we’ve talked a little bit about your beginnings, when you started editing and learning from other editors, but I’m curious to know what your experience had been with your own mentors and what made you want to be a part of the program?

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

Well, like Ricardo, I always thought it was important to have an assistant editor in the room while we cut because it could be a lonely job. And I think it’s our obligation to… I mean someone taught me, so I think we should keep that going. And so I always kept editors or assistant editors for most of my work. Many producers and director thought, “Are you crazy? It costs too much to have a full-time assistant editor.” And by the end of the project they always loved the assistants way better than they loved me. And they realized, certainly in a documentary setting, how important the assistant editor is because they know everything about the film very intimately. The assistant editor knows the timeline, knows all the problem shots, knows the music. And when it comes to posting and putting all that together, the assistant editor is key.

And the assistant editor, if they’re a good assistant, helps smooth the waters, calm things down when the editor and the director are fighting or there’s tension in the room, the assistant editor can always come and help keep those things afloat. But in terms of our CCE, I don’t know, I got an email that said, “Would you, you be interested in mentoring?” And I thought, “Okay, why not?” I didn’t know what it would entail. I had no clue that you and I would still be working together on the Buffy film.

And I remember meeting you, do you remember that meeting? We were at Insomnia, I don’t know, three days before the first lockdown.

Brina Romanek:

Yes.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

And I remember reading your CV and I thought, “Oh wow, she’s 27. She’s directed a few shorts already.” And I thought to myself, “Oh my God, here she is, someone to replace me. Here we go.” And I remember that was my first impression in meeting you. I don’t know, what was your first impression?

Brina Romanek:

As I mentioned to you before, I definitely sweat right through my blouse. I was very nervous. And you were asking me questions that I don’t think I had been asked in a while. Very direct questions about what I wanted to do and where I wanted to go. And I wasn’t even sure whether or not those are maybe things that I kept inside, but I wasn’t sure that I had the confidence to just blurt out. And so I felt a bit like I was in the hot seat, but in a good way. And I left the meeting feeling excited. But also I had been given the opportunity to think more specifically about how I wanted to grow. I think that that was a good start to our relationship.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

Yeah. And I think you were interested in documentary and I think that’s important. I get a lot of people who come and they want to be fiction writers or dramatic editors or even directors and it’s like, “Why are you coming to me?” But you were very persistent and I think, what did we meet every month or something like that?

Brina Romanek:

Yeah, I think at the beginning it was, we’d have at least a phone call a month. And at first, you watched the films that I had made and gave your thoughts and feedback. And I remember very clearly, you watched my film, A Portrait of Pockets. And afterwards you gave me this note, which I still think about all the time when I’m cutting.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

I hope it’s a good note.

Brina Romanek:

You said really think about when you are giving breath in between the phrases of what your character is saying and when you are making it a full cohesive run-on sentence, let’s say. And you were saying there were some moments in that film where I had split up and given too much breath in between phrases from the main character of Charmaine and so we lost some of the meaning of the scene. I think it was a very good note. I think about that a lot when we’re cutting now. I’m often thinking about, “Okay, is this an idea that is more clearly comes across when we hear the whole thing? Or is this one of those ideas that we need a moment to pause and breathe in part of what’s being said before we can hear the rest of it?”

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

Yeah. Yeah, you’re right. We did that yesterday on a scene. When do we let Buffy Sainte-Marie say everything she says, and when do you give the pause, right?

Brina Romanek:

Yes.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

That takes time to figure out and you just re-listen to your scenes over and over again. We’ve been working together for what, two years now? Almost two years. Right now we’re cutting Buffy and now Brina’s taken my place. She’s the editor or co-editor with the director Madison Thompson. Yeah. And I’m story editing with her and maybe giving you too much of a hard time, Brina.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

That’s great. I mean just like Ricardo and Jordan, you guys are now colleagues, which I find is fascinating. It’s great.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

Yeah, working that scene. Today, you were pretty tired, was it two days? Two days, we’ve been working on the same scene?

Brina Romanek:

Two and a half. And today it was down to the really minute, minute. And there’s a moment where I was like, “Oh my gosh.” But then-

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

I was a moment there when I gave you a note and you were going, “Oh, for fuck sakes. Really? She’s not happy?”

Brina Romanek:

But when I went for a walk and came back and watched it was like, “Yep, it made a big difference.” As stubborn as I was feeling in the moment.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

I think what was great about this mentorship program… We did a movie club at one point, watched movies and talked, and then I got a call from these producers that I knew and the filmmaker was stuck. They had an assembly, they just couldn’t do the story that they really wanted to do. The film was in trouble, would I cut it? And I’m at a stage in my career where I want to do other things. I don’t want to necessarily work seven days a week or five days a week on a project. And I said, “Look, I’ll story edit. I’ve got this young mentee, she’ll cut it and I’ll story edit it. And I promise you’ll love it.” And I gave you a call, Brina.

I wasn’t sure you were completely on board. I mean, I don’t know, you were very quiet.

Brina Romanek:

Well, I had another project that I was doing currently, but I really wanted to do it. And so I expressed that to you, there’s a bit of a scheduling conflict. And you said, “Well go talk to your parents.” So I got on the phone and I went upstairs because I was quarantining with my parents. And I told them about it and my mom goes, “Well you’re certainly going to work really hard, but it’ll be worth it.” So then I called you back and I said, “Okay.” And away we went. And I’m sure Michèle, you’ll probably attest to this too, but I’m curious to know, because the beginning was a little bumpy. We had to figure out how we were going to work together. And I’m curious to know from your perspective what your expectations were going in. Because I know that I had specific expectations, and it wasn’t necessarily quite like I thought it was going to be, in some ways. And so I’m curious to know if you had any expectations going in?

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

Oh no, tell me yours first. What did you expect?

Brina Romanek:

Well, I think that when we started, I had in my brain that we were going to look at the material and we were going to talk about it and then I was going to go away and have to cut something and sort of prove to you that I could cut. And then we would look at it and discuss and go from there.

And instead, which I am so appreciative of, is you really took the time to first of all, say “When we start cutting, because I am teaching you a certain method of how I organize the project and how I cut. And I’m going to ask you to also follow that method so that I can show you the way that I work.” And it was very specific. Right from the beginning I went, “Okay, this is going to be a very detailed approach.” Which I’m very appreciative of.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

Yeah, I’m not sure if I had a clear idea of what we were going to do, but I knew I was going to be very hands-on at the beginning. Because I had sold this to these producers and I thought, “Fuck, I hope this is going to work out. I hope I don’t end up working more than I have to.” Or who knows. I thought I knew you and I knew you were very talented and stuff, but I wasn’t completely convinced that I had done the right thing.

Well, you know, it’s that, as I said, you promised the moon in the beginning and hopefully you can deliver. But it worked out. Brina, I think you have enough confidence in who you are and you’re very open to trying things. It was bumpy in the beginning. Just for the audience to know, it was in the middle of Covid still, we shared a screen, we both had clones of material. You had your drive, I had my drive. Whatever we added in the day we would share, so we were always having the same timeline. And then the first thing you cut, I think I took it over right away, which was really bad. But I didn’t know how to explain. It’s like, “Oh shit, let me just show her and she’ll get it.”

And then because also I live in Prince Edward County and the internet is so slow, the lagging thing really was problematic. But we worked it out. We started sending quick times and I think at one point you even said to me, “Is this what’s going to happen all the time? Are you going to just take away my edits? Is this…” So I learned to back off. But also, you picked up very quickly. And after we worked really hard for the first act or so, for the first 20 minutes, then I was really hands-off. And then what we would do is we would talk about the scene in the morning, you would pull the selects, you would cut, call me at lunch if you were in trouble. I was out in the field doing, planting my flowers. And then by the last act I was really hands-off, right?

Brina Romanek:

Yeah. And I will say that, thinking about that, in terms of Buffy, one of the things that you’ve been talking about right now to me is that we’re taking the time right now to find the rhythm and to figure out what the rhythm is. And because we did the last film together and I experienced how it’s that slow turtle start and then you just get on going and you just go, and I don’t know if it comes across this way to you, but I feel like I have a more patience and understanding and “Okay, we have to be slow and deliberate right now and not to stress about the time and just to make sure that we’re finding it.”

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

Right. Yeah, it’s always slower in the beginning. Always much slower in the beginning. And I think, for me as an editor, there’s a couple of things that’s exciting us about being a mentor. One, you are not just teaching the technical, but you have real-time experience of saying, “This is how you do it” because we’re working with the material together. And sharing that experience is completely different than just editing. For me, there was an excitement that all of a sudden, I’m doing something different with the work. I’m not just cutting.

And also, working with someone from the younger generation, you have a different sensibility than what I have. And as an older editor, you can easily get used to mining from the same pot that you’ve always, “Ooh yeah, I did this trick on this film. Let’s go back to this. Let’s go back to this.” With you, you challenge and you give me a different perspective. Because the language of film changes over time. There’s new shortcuts, there’s new ways of expressing things, there is new styles. And working with you has allowed me to be on my toes and not sit back and say, “Oh yeah, I did it all.” No, you challenge that. And I think that that’s great. And by the end, the director and producer stopped talking to me, right? After the wrap cut, that was it. I was out of the picture.

Brina Romanek:

With your flowers.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

With my flowers, yeah.

Brina Romanek:

That’s another thing which I think I’d love to have you chime in with me on, is my growth, in terms of learning from you about transitions, because that was probably my biggest learning curve. And one of the things that I’m still really focused on working on and getting better at is transitioning between scenes and sometimes even moments.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

And I think that with time you’ll feel more comfortable with that. But I think that, as an editor, and you’ve got a feature film, there is this feeling of wanting to reach the end. You want to get to the end, you’ve got the weight of the film on your shoulders, and transitions take time. You have to let it breathe. But there is this constant momentum to move forward because of “Oh my god, I’ve only cut two minutes in the last three days. Are you kidding me?” And I think that transitions, as I said, are separate. They’re like putting peaches together. You just sometimes have to undo things and let it sit. Let words reverberate onto other scenes.

So yeah, we talked a lot about that, using sound in transition. There was an important one in the film, just for the audience. It was a character-based film on alternative education. And we had three or four characters. And midway through filming, they too got caught into Covid like everyone else. And that transition was the hardest for you, right?

Brina Romanek:

Yeah, it was really hard. And I remember when I first started cutting it, I did this weird kind of fade out thing and I showed it to you. And you said, “You don’t have to stick to what the footage is giving you. You can throw something in there and kind of turn it on its head.” And you made these suggestions of sound effects that, if you were in this scene, you wouldn’t think that belonged. And I remember you first mentioned that I thought, “She’s crazy. What’s she talking about?” And it was this… What’s that book called? The Art of the Cut. And they talk about the fact that you’re kind of a dream state, so it’s almost real, but then you have the power to bring things into play that wouldn’t actually happen in real life. And that was for me the aha! moment of, “Oh, this is what that book means.”

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

That’s right. And so I think we deliberately build up one of the characters. Again, the film is about alternative education. And each of the characters, each of the kids from the school, had their challenges to overcome. And we deliberately– we decided to have one of the kids overcome their challenge, just meet their goal and just get to the point of transforming into the character he wanted to be. And for us, if you bring that up high and then when Covid hits, the whole world falls apart. And you needed to find a transition to help you do that, right?

Brina Romanek:

Yes.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

I watched the film over the break and one of the things popped into my head was just how appropriate of a film this is to tie into mentorship, because they talk so much about how everybody learns differently and you need to have a catered approach to each person. We all have different ways we learn and understand things. So in these mentor/mentee pairs, you’ve got a unique teaching situation or learning situation where you guys get to know each other as people and your communication styles and how you best learn. And from there, you can really see how it’s an enriching process.

Brina Romanek:

Yeah, and I would also say, to jump off that point you said Chris, about learning about each other. It was a nice way to learn about each other because there were so many discussions that came about up about “What were you like as a kid? What were things that affected you in school or things that impacted you in how you learned?” And it was a really great way to not only get to know Michèle as a teacher, but also to get to know her as a person.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Amazing. Well, it seems like a great time to maybe bring everybody back in. So we’ll have Jordan and Ricardo join us again. So to start this off with everybody, I just wanted to ask one question to each of you. And that question is, what does an effective mentorship mean to you? And Jordan, let’s start with you. What does an effective mentorship mean to you personally?

Jordan Kawai:

Well, I found it really interesting when Brina and Michèle were talking about part of their mentorship program, watching films together and dialoguing with that. And I think mentorship for me is being in dialogue with what moves you. And I find when you watch a film together, not when you’re just cutting, but when you’re– as an audience and editors as viewers as well, of what gets you excited. And I think so much of it as the process of watching a director and editor’s relationship. But when I was watching with Ricardo is just seeing that passion come out and then really focusing on that and making sure that that’s the center of everything you do, when you’re editing at every scene. So being in dialogue with what moves you, I would say is what mentorship means to me.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

And Michèle, how about for you?

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

Wow…

Chris Mutton, CCE:

It’s an open-ended question, but…

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

It’s a hard one. First of all, the two people need to have a good relationship. I think that’s really important. It takes a lot from… You’re giving and taking on both sides, it’s not just a one-way street. You’re not just talking about yourself and saying, “Oh yeah, I did this, I did this.” No. I mean the idea is, Brina came in, what can I do to advance and help her in her career? And in bringing what I have learned and what people had given me, how do I give back?

And I think that that’s really, really important. And you have to be honest. You have to be honest with yourself. You have to be honest with your mentee. There are times when Brina was very frustrated and was having difficulty. And so you share your own fears, you share your own struggles. Because even today, you still have them. I mean, how many times do you get a new film and you go, “Okay, that’s it. They’re going to find out that I can’t do this anymore.” And to be able to listen. To listen to her, to her ideas, what she brings to the table. And not always try and lead and control the situation. I think that that’s really important because they’re there. They have a lot to offer as well. So I think it’s very much a two-way street.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Yeah. Excellent. Yeah, I like how you touched upon earlier, too, about learning from Brina and that the mentee has a lot to offer the mentor. And that’s maybe a common misconception about mentorship is that it’s a top-down approach and it’s somebody who’s, “I’m going to teach you X, Y, and Z.” But I think one thing that’s come across really obviously, in all the conversations we’ve had here, is that openness and honesty and it has to be a two-way conversation to make it work well. Brina, what does an effective mentorship mean to you?

Brina Romanek:

Well, first of all, I think both those answers are so great that it’s hard to keep coming up with things. Two things stick out for me. One is a safe space. Feeling like you have a safe space to make mistakes and to play. Because, end of the day, one of the most fun things about editing is that you get to play. And so if you have the space to do that, then it makes the whole experience better. And it probably makes your film better.

And the other thing that I would say is that having a mentor who can see what you’re capable of, even when you can’t, and so will sometimes push you to places that you don’t think you can go to is a very lucky thing to come across and I think makes the growth that much better. I know Michèle has certainly pushed me sometimes and I don’t think there’s any more pushing that can happen and then suddenly it’s like, wow. And we go somewhere completely different.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

That’s true.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

So I wasn’t too mean?

Brina Romanek:

No.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Amazing. And Ricardo, what does an effective mentorship mean to you?

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

I think everybody has said something very meaningful. For me, really, it’s a collaboration. Also, I would use one word is empathy and respect. And also knowing that you are working with a very particular part of our being, which is our fragility, our insecurity, our gift as artists. The fact that none of the scenes are absolute, but they’re all part of our humanity. I cannot be the mentor of someone who is competing with me, or I cannot be the collaborator as an editor, as a story editor, or as writer of a director that is competing.

It’s about complimenting. And I always said, “Doesn’t matter who had the idea. If the idea works, that’s what the story needs and we are happy about it.” And that’s one thing that I always share with Jordan, for example, and with other editors and directors that I am mentoring about, it has to be always a pleasurable and in collaboration. It cannot be about a clash of egos or a clash of my idea is better than your idea. There’s no such a thing. At the end of the day, the movie works or it doesn’t. And everybody else ego will banish it out of the screen. And that’s something that I love to be able to understand that the mentee really see in me someone that see this… We have to have the same kind of empathy and excitement about finding each other interesting, I would say.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Yeah, for sure. Do you guys have any questions for each other?

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

I have a question for Ricardo and Jordan. Jordan, I know you just– was the Surf Girl film the first feature or second feature that you cut? And if so, was Ricardo a mentor on it, a story editor for you? And how did that work?

Jordan Kawai:

Bangla Surf Girls was the second film that Ricardo mentored and story supervised for. The first one was a CBC doc channel piece called Stage: The Culinary Internship. And both instances were actually interesting because Ricardo brought me in for both. And both films were in a spot where they had edited a full rough cut and then they reached a point where they wanted to open it up and to reconstruct and reimagine the film.

So I was brought in for both those pieces and in that situation. The relationship with Ricardo is very much so, again, what I was talking about before, this idea of watching something as a viewer and then having a conversation about it. It was interesting because both those films, you’re able to watch a full rough cut and then have a conversation about what you got excited about and what just wasn’t holding tension. So that relationship, for that film, really was about reacting to something that was already present. And it was interesting because it kind of gave me a bit of a road map to stand on. And for a first feature to cut, it was also a blessing and curse because you were also trying to completely reimagine something, but at the same time, you also were reacting to something that was already done. And yeah. Ricardo, you have anything? What was it like for you in terms of that?

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

No. For me, Stage was a very interesting [inaudible 00:48:14] because I was approached by the directors and producer to edit the film and I said, “I’m busy, but I have the magic team for you.” Because for me, it was very important to– I knew that Jordan was ready to do a feature length documentary. But I also knew that not everybody was seeing Jordan as being ready, because that also happens. Sometimes you have an editor in waiting that is still a ghost because the producers that he’s working with don’t see him as someone that they want to give the chance.

And one thing that we can do, Michèle, me, and editors who are more established and they have done it, is that we can become that signature behind that opportunity. And I saw it as well, okay. And I remember saying, “Jordan, you have to tell me yes about this because this is something nice for you. And these directors will never hire you on your own because there is this layer of insecurity about who are– what have you done?” But the deal I have made is that you get me if you get him.

And that was an opportunity that for me was super important to do in that case, because I know Jordan will be able to do it. But I also knew that directors and producer will not be able to hire him. So I have to pitch Jordan to the producer, director. And that was a very powerful pitch and a very important pitch. I was also mentoring the director and the producer because for them was also, in some cases, first time experience of feature length business. And that way there were so many classic mistakes that were made on the first incarnation of the film. And what we were trying to do here also was we are not coming in to follow something that’s not working, but we are coming in to reimagine that story with the same footage. And that alone is a very powerful and complicated intervention that when we do it, we have to be able to have the room and the freedom to do that.

And that was a great collaboration because constantly, Jordan and me were talking about, “Okay, first is identifying what are those things that absolutely work from what is there before us and what is not working? What is problematic? What is actually a liability to their story?” And start doing this kind of casting the scenes that are in and the scenes they’re out. And then out of that, being left with the bones that we thought, “Okay, this could be the first element to build that story.” That alone will have been very difficult for a young editor to do, on his own or on her own, without having someone like Michèle or me or many other editors who can say, “Okay, let’s resurrect or reinvent this film together.” And how we are going to talk to the director and the producer about this, which are people who had spent perhaps two years working on the same, no working, failing story.

And they has been rejected by everything film festival. And the people are actually very tired about hearing about their story. But then you are coming and saying, “No, there is always a mañana.” That that’s what we did. And I feel very proud because ultimately, that was a dream for me, to be able to help Jordan to get there with a film that, by the time that we got into the other film, it was different. Because he has so much… He have learned to find his own strength much more than at that time, I think. Right, Jordan?

Jordan Kawai:

Well, the time, yeah. The timing was really interesting for me because as an assistant editor who, as you were saying before, I was getting really comfortable with doing the assist edit role. And a lot of that is some of the IT support. So I do get that. I was having that feeling that I was so hungry to work on something in a full creative capacity, but then it’s a dog chasing its tail. When you called me and said, “Oh, there’s an opportunity,” it’s just all of a sudden just trying to find that confidence. Am I actually ready to do that? And I think just by hearing your confidence in me, that definitely was the push. It’s interesting, when you get that opportunity, and I’m curious for you, Brina, is that something that “Hands down, for sure, a hundred percent I’m going to take,” or do you have that moment of consideration of, “Am I actually ready to take this on and will I deliver?” And I struggle with that. But Ricardo, you definitely helped me find that confidence.

Brina Romanek:

It’s very nice to hear someone else… It’s a kind of up here feeling that way because I think, I don’t know about you, Jordan, but I have had minimal contact with other people in my experience and age group who are assistant editing and moving into editing. Because usually I’m working with a team of a lot of people who are very experienced. Sometimes that second guessing is in the back of my brain. I’m going, “Okay, is this normal? Is this okay? Does everybody feel this way at one point or another?”

So in some ways it’s kind of nice to be confirmed that I’m not alone in that feeling. But to echo or answer your sentiments, both times that Michèle has come to me and said, “Okay, here’s what I’m thinking,” there has been that large inhale and going, “Okay, I think I can do it. I think I’m ready.” And I’m curious to know, in your process of working with Ricardo, and I know that Michèle knows this, that I have many days of feeling overwhelmed or I’m not quite sure if I have the chops. And so I’m curious to know if you have had those moments as well when working on both of your films.

Jordan Kawai:

Yeah, definitely. Imposter syndrome is real. I definitely feel that on all the projects at a certain point. But I also find that, in some ways, it’s because there’s this skill of editing, but there’s also just understanding the world that you’re entering. And I think that’s such a gift about editing is just every project is a whole new realm and world that you’re coming into. All this new research, all this new information, all these new contexts. And I think that I convinced myself that fish-out-of-water feeling is normal for every project. And I’ve started to really just embrace that.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

And who better to learn that from than your mentors, who have that feeling too, I’m sure. And to have that confidence check, the ability to check in with somebody, rather than being on your own and left to just to wonder and have some maybe fear come through your mind. But you guys both have someone very experienced to check in on you, which is fantastic.

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

I have a question for Michèle and for Brina also about, in this relationship that you have as mentor, mentee and collaborators, Michèle also, how has been the experience of learning? Because sometime, a lot of what I do is also being there for the director as much as for the editor that I am mentoring. And sometime even for the director, the producer, and the editor in different capacities, sometime. But how have you been sharing with Brina that whole idea about how do we deal with this director or this situation or this other? What is your role as a editor? How much active or forceful you are? Or how do you stand as an editor? Because I mean, those things are not written on the wall.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

No, no. And those are very good questions, Ricardo. And I think, Brina, we’re learning this now with Buffy. We’re working on Buffy Sainte-Marie. It’s a big team. There’s way too many executive producers. There’s way too much pressure that this film is supposed to be fabulous. And so I want to make sure the scenes that Brina’s culling out right now are perfect. Are beyond perfect. Because the team is waiting, they’re waiting, and they’re just too nervous.

And so, I don’t know about you Ricardo, a lot of time, it’s just getting that team to calm down. And to say, “We know what we’re doing, we’ll get it done.” Brina, I don’t know, but is the amount of pressure I’ve been putting on you to make sure that, to keep cutting that scene, to make it that there’s no structural problems, there’s no pacing problems. As you know Ricardo, it’s a matter of trust. Can your team trust you because they’re going in blindly with you. You don’t have all the answers right now. And Brina doesn’t have. We’ll work it out. And I think on the first film, Brina, it was that first act had to be great, right? We’d show them scenes, but once that first act and they were like, ‘Oh, thank God. This is so good.” And they relaxed. You know that feeling.

Sometimes I work with directors and they’re new directors. I worked on one and we had barely 12 weeks to cut a feature. I’ll never do that again. No. It’s ridiculous. And you could do it on your own. I’m not following that kind of schedule. But I never worked with a director before and I said, “Well, we don’t have time to make a mistake and go, I’m going on the wrong path. You don’t have time.”

So I cut a scene, like a sizzle reel. I hate that term, but I cut one anyways, just to make sure we’re on the same page. But the director took over 10 days to look at it. You know, you give a Vimeo and you see, how come he hasn’t looked at it yet? What’s going on? And he actually admitted to me that he was afraid to look at it because he thought, “What if I didn’t like it?” Thank God he liked it because he would’ve been in trouble and I would’ve been in trouble. Because it’s, as you know, Ricardo, it’s a relationship with between the filmmaker and the editor. It’s like you’re married for a while and gaining that trust. And I think, Brina, we do a lot of that, how to gain the trust of the filmmaker. And it’s an important skill to learn.

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

And it’s very delicate because sometime, at one scene I really feel that I always said we all have to embrace our insecurities, our creative panic, as an asset, not as an obstacle. Because we are human. And nobody has the formula of how to make the movie work. And you probably will agree with me, I cannot work with someone’s expectation because that does not give me any tools to make the movie better or worse. I can only work one step at a time with what feels right in front of us at the editing suite. So this idea that somebody is building a film outside the editing suite based on their own pretension, and then projecting that inside then editing suite, can create a lot of demoralizing around the creative process. And for us, it’s super important to protect that. It’s like, yeah, if you want to go to Sundance, that’s your own dream. Please leave it outside the door. I mean, come on.

But I love the idea of be able to share that with my mentees and say, “Yeah, you have the right to push and to exercise those things outside the creative…” That you create the space. Also, this idea that you created space, it’s not the office of the film, where people go to do production stuff. It’s your sanctuary. You are the boss. Yes. That is important because sometimes people don’t see it that way. And then you become an asset to their own world and it’s like, “No, no, no. This is my kingdom.”

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Yeah. I like that idea of how you have to protect that.

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

I was one working in a production that was few very brilliant editors. And I came in and when I was the last one who came in and everybody was basically working with the window or with the door open, because the control freak executive producer liked to be going around looking at all and I went, ?oh no, that?s not me.? It was like a fish tank. I closed my door and it was such a shock in the work environment, because it was, “My God-

Chris Mutton, CCE:

How dare he?

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

And he was like, “Hey, he closed his door.” It’s like, “Yeah, I closed my door because this is my territory. You’re welcome to my editing suite. This is not a chorizo factory, it’s my creative space.” But it’s very interesting because I realize, okay, I am in a situation where there is a bully, but I was not hired to deal with that. I was hired to try to work on a story. And it was interesting because then I created a trend. All the editors said, “Okay, let’s cross the door.”

Chris Mutton, CCE:

I’m going to close the… You started it.

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

And those are things that you have to share. And it’s also this idea of that I’m mentoring someone who said, “No, I’m preparing my demo reel and you know what I think about that.” And I’m going like, “You don’t have a demo reel as an editor.?

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Your films.

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

Whole conversations about what are the trend that you are getting in that’s disrespecting our craft. And that’s important because when a producer asks you for something like that, you are not obligated to bend to that requirement. And people are still asking for demo reels.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

Yeah. Amazing. And in that case you just send them, “Nope, you want want to hire me, watch my film.”

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

And one day I said, “So you have not that many films on your back, but you also know how to talk. You are entitled to say, let’s talk about a story. Because that’s what I can offer you.”

Chris Mutton, CCE:

I’m afraid we’re going to have to wrap it up. This could go on forever. You guys are having an amazing conversation and I think everybody could agree that both of your mentor/mentee pairs are really excellent examples. I love all the conversation around the intangible skills that mentors can pass on to their mentees. Because there’s so much more to editing than just what’s on the timeline. So thank you to Jordan, Ricardo, Michèle, and Brina.

Michèle Hozer, CCE:

Thank you, Chris.

Brina Romanek:

Thank you.

Ricardo Acosta, CCE:

Thank you, Chris.

Chris Mutton, CCE:

You bet.

Jordan Kawai:

Thank you.

Sarah Taylor:

Thanks so much for joining us today. And a big thanks goes out to our panelists and moderator. A special thanks goes to the 2022 EditCon planning committee, Alison Dowler and Kim McTaggart, CCE. The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall. Additional ADR recording by Andrea Rusch. Original music created by Chad Blain and Soundstripe. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. The CCE is proud to support Hire BIPOC. Hire BIPOC is the definitive and ubiquitous industry-wide roster of Canadian BIPOC creatives and crew working in screen-based industries. Check out HireBIPOC.ca to hire your next crew or create a profile and get hired.

Speaker 9:

The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member, please visit our website, www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

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Hosted and Produced by

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Design sonore du générique d'ouverture

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L'art du montage

Episode 014: Meet René Roberge

Episode014_Meet Rene Roberge

Épisode 14 : Rencontre avec René Roberge

Cet épisode est commandité par MELS STUDIOS

Dans ce nouvel épisode, nous allons à la rencontre d’un monteur très respecté du monde du documentaire au Canada : René Roberge.

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Photo Credit: Raphaël Pare

D’ailleurs, René Roberge est nommé cette année dans la catégorie Meilleur montage dans un long métrage documentaire aux prix Écrans canadien pour le film JOUVENCELLES. Catherine Legault nous guide à travers son parcours professionnel et son approche très singulière du documentaire.

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Catherine Legault

Raphaël Pare

Les Studios MELS

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The Editors Cut

Episode 074 – l'EditCon 2022: Remanier le scénario

The Editor's Cut: Episode 74: EditCon 2022: Flipping the Script

Episode 074 - EditCon 2022: Flipping the Script

Today?s episode is part 2 of our 4 part series covering EditCon 2022 Brave New World.

Today?s panel is Flipping the Script – The age of streaming has fully arrived. We?ve experienced a boom of topnotch shows, but how do you set yourself apart in such a crowd? Whether it?s bucking the trend of antagonistic conflict to create the arc of TED LASSO; using comedy to punctuate the lives of non-binary characters in SORT OF, exploring familiar characters in new ways with WANDAVISION or reinvigorating period drama with the diverse world of BRIDGERTON, these shows prove that discarding past norms leads to success. Sit with the editors behind these phenomenal series as they discuss the ins and outs of their groundbreaking approaches to storytelling.

This episode is generously sponsored by JAM Post.

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The Editor?s Cut – Episode 074 – EditCon 2022: Flipping the Script

Sarah Taylor:

This episode was generously sponsored by Jam Post.

Omar Majeed:

Some of these words we use in television are so outdated in a weird way you know. It’s like a comedy-drama, but it’s like we think of comedy, our association is mainly the high comedy. We think of drama, you think of high stakes drama, right? Life is so often lived in the middle zones of those extremes. And then, you know, you add something high concept like WandaVision in there, and it feels like, oh, we got to have huge, big action, not scale things down to emotions of grief, right? So similarly for a character like Sabi, they’re queer, they’re marginalized, they’re racialized. These are labels that we tend to think of as having high stakes drama or outrageous comedy. And I think we were trying to kind of find what was more just the authentic truth.

Sarah Taylor:

Hello and welcome to the Editor’s Cut. I’m your host, Sarah Taylor. We would like to point out that the lands on which we have created this podcast, and that many of you may be listening to us from, are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we are on ancestral territory that has long served as a place where Indigenous Peoples have lived, met, and interacted. We honor, respect and recognize these Nations that have never relinquished their rights or sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many contributions and the concerns that impact Indigenous individuals and communities. Land acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.

Today’s episode is part two of our four part series covering EditCon 2022 Brave New World. Today’s panel is flipping the script. The age of streaming has fully arrived. We’ve experienced a boom of top-notch shows. But how do you set yourself apart in such a crowd? Whether it’s bucking the trend of antagonistic conflict to create an arc of Ted Lasso, using comedy to punctuate the lives of non-binary characters in Sort Of, exploring familiar characters in new ways with WandaVision, or reinvigorating period drama with the diverse world of Bridgerton. These shows prove that discarding past norms leads to success. Sit with the editors behind these phenomenal series as they discuss the ins and outs of their groundbreaking approaches to storytelling.

Speaker 1:

And action. Action today, this is the editor’s cut, CCE podcast, exploring, exploring, exploring the art of picture editing.

Gillian Truster:

Hello everyone, I’m Gillian Truster. I’m your moderator for this panel Flipping the Script, and I am very excited to have the opportunity to chat with editors of some of the most critically acclaimed and popular shows on the planet. I would love to introduce our panelists today in the order in which you appear on my screen. We have Melissa McCoy who’s here to talk about Ted Lasso. We have Omar Majeed and Sam Thompson who are here to talk about Sort Of. We have Jim Flynn who’s going to be discussing Bridgerton. And we have Nona Khodai who’s here to talk about WandaVision. Welcome everyone.

 

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Thanks for having us.

Gillian Truster:

Yay, I’m very excited. So all of you have shows that there’s something very unique about them and we could fill a panel on each of your individual shows. So with our limited time, I’m going to focus my questions on what makes your shows unique and innovative, creative challenges and what you feel resonated with audiences. And then I’m going to leave time for a less structured section where all of you can ask each other questions and share your experiences. So with that, let’s get started. So Nona, let’s start with you on Wanda Vision. So you were nominated for two Emmys for this show. That is very exciting, congratulations.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Thanks, in the same category, but yes.

Gillian Truster:

That is amazing. That is amazing. So before we dive into it, can you tell us what the premise of the show is for those watching who may not have had a chance to see it yet?

Nona Khodai, ACE:

It’s basically, well it’s an exploration on grief, actually. The show in the short term, basically. The reason the show is kind of unique is that it’s structured in a way that you think it’s about happy sitcoms, and then you reveal, as we reveal episode by episode, little things are a little odd. The character goes from decade to decade in sitcoms, and it’s her way of dealing with her grief over the years. And so instead of showing it in this traditional way of how we see grief, we see it in her love of sitcoms and how those sitcoms have helped her get through the grief as each person in her life has passed, basically.

 So we start in the fifties with an episode that’s similar to Dick Van Dyke, and we go decade by decade until we get into the present day. And then we reveal in a way, in the clip I’ll be showing, how she changes the world from present to the past into the sitcom world that she’s created to protect herself from grief. And then it’s based on the characters, Wanda Maximoff, who has powers being able to mind control people and move things with her mind and Vision, who is, who’s the lover of her life and is a Synthozoid, a robot essentially, but has human emotions. And she’s lost him in the last Avengers movie. He has passed away and this is her dealing with his death basically is the show. That’s the exploration of her grief over his death and all the deaths that she’s had to deal with. So that’s basically what the show is about.

Gillian Truster:

So exactly, your show, it’s the way that it’s told. That’s super, super innovative. So with that, let’s show your clip because I think, well why don’t you set up, the clip?

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Basically goes through her life and it flashes back through what’s happened to her and where she has ended up today in the present, in her present day in the show. This witch, Agatha Harkness, basically is trying to open her up because she has this power within her that she doesn’t know why she has all this power. And so she’s basically Wanda’s walking her through her memories. It’s kind of like a Christmas Carol episode basically. So she’s walking her through all her memories and the clip is she’s found this letter, that vision has gone to this one location and we reveal why in a clip, basically why she’s gone because she basically… Well, I don’t want to give it away, but basically there’s a deed to a house that he’s bought in her name and their name and because it would’ve been this life that they would’ve lived together and yet they don’t get to live it. And so it’s the catalyst to what happens next, which is she creates this world to protect herself.

Gillian Truster:

So let’s roll that clip.

 

[clip plays]

Gillian Truster:

Thank you very much. That’s a great clip.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Thank you.

Gillian Truster:

And I love how there’s so much information that’s conveyed nonverbally and I think that clip also is great that it gives people who haven’t seen the show a really good sense of actually what the show is. If somebody asked you what genre do you consider WandaVision? I legitimately think you could say all of them. I mean, it has drama, it has comedy, it has mystery, it has action, adventure, superhero. It has sci-fi, it has fantasy. But what do you consider it?

Nona Khodai, ACE:

I mean, it’s whatever, whoever’s watching it considers it. I think it’s such a show for everyone, hopefully. And you can’t put it in a… I mean it’s a limited series, so it’s its own thing. So there is no genre, I guess you would say in it. I think essentially it is like a drama and comedy, a dramedy. We have both elements. It could also be a multi-cam sitcom at times because we have laugh track and whatnot. I don’t know. I can’t… I don’t know what it is.

Gillian Truster:

Right, it’s it. It’s a bit of everything. It’s a bit of everything. So actually speaking of sitcoms, so the first few episodes starts in this sitcom world. Did you watch old sitcoms in order to emulate the style?

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Yeah, I mean we knew from the start of signing on that we would have to emulate older sitcoms. So I was a big fan of I Love Lucy, so I know all of those episodes. So I just went and rewatched a lot of that. I was a big fan of Dick Van Dyke, so I went and started watching some of those. And it’s amazing how crisp that timing is and the pacing and how much they rehearsed, it looked like they rehearsed, to get that because it was all so fast-paced. And they would just stay in those wide shots and they would just banter back and forth. It’s pretty incredible. Bewitched, I watched a lot of Bewitched and Brady Bunch and Family Ties for the ’80s episode, Full House, and then Modern Family and The Office were our ’90s, 2000s episodes. So all of those decades, and I grew up with all those.

Gillian Truster:

So you’re familiar?

Nona Khodai, ACE:

I was familiar. I knew the timing, but it was good to refresh and go back, even Laverne and Shirley and Mary Tyler Moore for the main title sequences. I had to go, because we had to create those main title sequences too. And so it was a good way to look at all of those different sitcoms and what they did and how it evolved from the ’50s to the ’60s to the ’70s, especially style and music. Music was really hard to temp because if you go back and watch, they don’t really have scores right now. We can’t go and buy those scores and put them in. So it was a lot of library music that we found to sprinkle it in for temp until we had the composer come in and write to the show.

Gillian Truster:

So even though you were emulating those sitcoms, did you end up taking any liberties with that in order for them to work for a modern audience?

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Absolutely. I mean I think at some point I had a little bit more pauses and whatnot and I tended to kind of squeeze in places just because we needed it to be paced-up for modern times and even cutting it a little cuttier than say the older sitcoms because they would just stay in those mediums for most of it. And I did do that, but sometimes you do have to just pace it up for time and so people won’t get bored, especially those early sitcoms because no one knew what was happening. And I think we were worried that no one would like the show because you’re like, what is the show? Why would people stick around and watch it? But I’m glad they did.

Gillian Truster:

Well actually, I mean that does bring up a couple of questions I have. When the show starts, the narrative is not immediately clear. So did you end up doing anything in editing to parcel out the information differently than maybe perhaps as scripted?

Nona Khodai, ACE:

I mean, a lot of it was scripted, I’ll say that. But yes, we did the end of 101, that was scripted, but we come out of frame and you see that someone’s watching the show and you’re like, what’s that? And then at the end of 102 and mainly the first two, mostly because we aired those together and they were originally going to air all three, but we needed time on the back end for VFX for the finale. So we needed that extra week to get all those VFX approved. And so instead of having all three air, and the end of two they added a bit of sound and Randall Park has a line at the end that you don’t know it’s Randall Park, but it’s him saying, “Wanda, Wanda, do you hear me?” And we added that at the very end of 102 so that it would entice audiences to come back for the next episode because we just didn’t have anything to come back to this mystery of what’s really going on.

You did a little bit with the Beekeeper coming up and staring at Wanda at the end of 102. You see all that bit. That was all done intentionally, but you just needed something extra there, I think, just to get the audience to come back for the next episode. And I think it worked. And then after the end of 103 with Monica Rambo getting thrown out of the Hex, definitely people came back for episode four, which is where we really get ya, I feel like. Four is the episode where people want to come back and watch and they’re like, okay, I get it. I get the show. But up until that point, I think it’s a bit of a mystery and it was, I think, a lot of audiences probably left because they were like, what is this? What am I watching?

Gillian Truster:

You wanted people to know that, oh not every episode is going to be a sitcom. That just wait, there is something that is going to come. And you just giving them those little tidbits just to let them know, just wait, patience.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Just wait a second.

Gillian Truster:

Patience people patience and then it will, the mystery will unfold.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

It’ll pay off eventually. Exactly, yeah.

Gillian Truster:

Working on this show, how much did you need to know about the Marvel Universe?

Nona Khodai, ACE:

I mean, I went back and watched all the movies. I think most of what I needed to know is Wanda and Vision’s backstory. I needed to know that, how they met and what happened to her and her brother in Age of Ultron, Avengers Age of Ultron, that he had died. And just knowing her and his backstory, I think, was probably what I needed to know. But I did, I went and watched all of them and it was fun to go back and watch the whole catalog because I don’t think I had actually done that before I started the show. So it was just fun to just learn about the world and all the various different characters. And you just go everywhere. You go to a space, you go… It’s a universe of its own. It’s pretty fun.

Gillian Truster:

Now I’ve heard you say that this show was treated as if you were making a movie, not a TV series. So can you elaborate on what you mean by that?

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Well, the way that the shows are structured at Marvel, we have a director who’s the showrunner essentially. There is a writer, but we never dealt with the writer really. We would get notes through the director from the writer, but essentially the director was our leader and we took the show from production all the way to delivery. And usually on TV shows, you lock your show, you say goodbye, they do all the VFX, and then they deliver after. Like on The Boys I would lock shows and then they would spend another six to eight months working on VFX and then they would deliver the show. And I would never see them until the final mixed playback, which would be six to eight months later. And then I’d be like, whoa, look at all this, all these VFX that I had never seen before.

That’s not the way it works at Marvel. You’re there, you’re working with the VFX team, you’re working with the Sound Department, the Music Department, you’re giving your insight in all of it. You’re giving notes on all of it. You’re changing timing on shots based on VFX to the very end. And a lot of TV shows do that, but for the most part, being on very high genre shows, I haven’t had the privilege of doing that. And I don’t know about the other panelists here, but I had never experienced that in TV before. So it was refreshing to just be able to finish the show properly. And that’s what I mean by it feels like a feature.

Gillian Truster:

Right, it sounds like you’re until the end collaborating with a lot of different departments, right through the-

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Taking it right through to the end. Yeah, I mean we delivered the finale, I think, 15 days before it aired. And that was 15 because we just had no time, so. We were there to the very end. And I know working at Shonda and other places, they’ve done that or I’ve heard that too, that they take it to the very end too sometimes with shows, and I’m sure Jim could speak to that.

Gillian Truster:

That’s great. No, that sounds like a fantastic process, a fantastic way to work.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

It was a pleasure.

Gillian Truster:

So Melissa, let’s get into Ted Lasso.

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

Okay.

Gillian Truster:

So you won an ACE award and earned an Emmy nomination for Ted Lasso. Yes, congratulations, that’s incredible.

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

Thank you , yeah.

Gillian Truster:

So before we get into it, could you please give us the premise of the show for those who may not have a chance to see it?

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

Well, it’s about an American football coach who goes over to England to coach soccer or football over in the UK. And he’s brought over by the team owner who’s acquired the team in a nasty divorce. And the reason she brings him over is not to take the team, basically. And so that’s kind of the setup. It’s very Major League, but from there it basically turns into a workplace comedy that also deals with the human condition and loss. Much like WandaVision, where it’s kind of hard to put in a box because I remember going through season one and getting things and thinking, okay, I’m getting a lot of sad episodes. Him and his wife go through a divorce, and Rebecca’s dealing with a lot of pain and shame. And Roy Kent is dealing with the end of his career and who is he going to be?

It’s all about the human condition really. And it wrapped in a workplace comedy with a little bit of sports mixed in. Yeah. So it’s more of a dramedy in that way. But for me at least, you just fall in love with this cast of characters that revolve around this world. And it’s not all, you know you have your team, you have your soccer players, you have the coaching staff who have their own world. You have the behind the scenes with Rebecca, and then she brings in Keeley who starts out as a… She’s a kind of model-star dating one of the soccer players. And then, or football players, I’ll say football, that’s what we kind of try to stay with the right vernacular, even though Americanized.

Anyways, it’s complicated. I feel like I’ll say soccer and I’m pissing off some people over here and I’ll say football and people are like, wait, what are you talking anyways, football. She was dating one of the football players and that turned into a love triangle. And so there’s just a lot of world blendings of this ragtag team of characters that are all going through some pretty big life stuff. But you still find the comedy in those moments.

Gillian Truster:

No, it is actually said that I was going to ask you about, because for awards you have to choose the category, but it’s not, and so it’s won all these awards in the comedy category, but it’s really, really not a straightforward comedy. So when you signed onto the show, did you have an idea of, oh, I’m on a comedy and this is how I’m going to cut it. Did your perception of it change over time when you got the footage?

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

Yes. Yeah, so I signed on because I was working with Bill Lawrence, who’s the executive producer. So I just basically saw him developing with Jason, didn’t know the script or anything. I didn’t really even know the skit. It’s based on a skit, like an NBC promotional thing for when they brought football to America. The Olympics were coming up and it was done back in the day and it was just like a snappy, ridiculous comedy. But I knew that he was developing the script and I just basically was like, I want in on that because I love Jason from SNL. I’m a big SNL fan, and I just.

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

I love Jason from SNL. I’m a big SNL fan, and I just thought he was charming and a wonderful performer. I don’t know, just something in me, script unseen, I didn’t know anything about it. I was like, please, please, please, can I be on that? They let me do it. I got to do the pilot. I had signed on before even reading the pilot. And then when I got sent the pilot, I was reading it and I was like, okay, comedy, comedy, comedy. Then you get to the end and in the script, I remember they were like, this song plays, please play this song as you read this scene. I was like, okay. I remember I was in a coffee shop and I was like, okay, I brought up the song and I’m listening to it and reading the scene and I’m like, this feels really heavy.

It’s this conversation with his wife and you don’t hear the other side of it where you basically, oh, he’s come here for a different reason than Rebecca bringing him over. He’s got a reason to want to get away as well, which I really loved. Then when the footage started coming in, I was kind of by myself. Everybody was in London, I was in LA and we never had a tone meeting about it or anything like that. When it was coming in, I was like, “I am not cutting this 30 Rock.” It just didn’t feel like that. The performances didn’t feel like that. It felt like I want to land this moment. I definitely took my time in some places to build the relationships. Then of course did some snappy stuff. We like some more stylized stuff. There was a press conference which was kind of a nod to the original skit, so that was a little more frenetic and fast paced.

But as we were trying to figure out what the show was when we started cutting it, first Apple was like, “This needs to be 28 minutes.” and we were at 36 minutes or something. I think we got it down to 30 minutes in and around there, but everyone was like, it’s a comedy, it’s got to be fast. it just didn’t feel right. Talking to Jason, we had cut a scene that he was like, looking back now, he was like, nobody ever said, I wish these were shorter. He was like, I wish we would’ve kept that scene in it. So it was just little things. We made some concessions early on that we didn’t do in season two. As our times kind of grew, we didn’t ever get close to 30. I think our longest episode in season one was 34 minutes, and that was our shortest episode in season two.

It’s interesting to see how the world has evolved and Jason really leaning into his beliefs in the show and what he wants to say and what he wants the characters to be feeling and going through and giving them the space to do that has been a really enjoyable process to find it along the way and be like, this is what it is. And I think we all just fell in love with the people and wanted to spend some time with them and gave ourselves, luckily we’re on a platform that you don’t have to fill to the tee of a running time. 

Gillian Truster:

So then in terms of like you said originally it sounds like Apple was like, oh, this is a comedy. It’s a sitcom, it?s supposed to be this many minutes. You have to get it to be shorter. Then is it with season two that they allowed more leeway because they saw how successful it was? Is it that they really had to wait to see what the audience reaction was before they were like, “Oh, right, it is this, we could let it breathe.”

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

Yeah, I think they found that over season one, it was just how much pilot, because we were a straight to series pickup, so it was like they didn’t work out anything with the pilot. They just got that and we were already moving along. I was working on episode three because I did every other episode, and so it was just like we were still going and finding it. Luckily season one, everything was open until the very end. We didn’t have to lock anything, so we didn’t have air dates. It was lovely. We were finding things later and being like, let’s go back and plant, oh, I see why the writers did this. We were letting moments land early that had we had to lock and move on and not have found what it was later. I think over the course of season one, Apple was like, “Oh, okay.”

It was only in that opening, what is this? It’s all that, trying to find the music and the tone. It was really tough. I was burning through all my soundtracks, just trying to find the right musical tone for this, because it’s just like, is it a comedy? But we have these kind of interpersonal moments that we’re trying to let land, and it feels more real in that moment and less slap sticky, which if you watch the original skits, it was all just like joke, joke, joke, joke and kind of outlandish. Even though there’s some of that, Ted Lasso you could send him off and he could be a complete caricature, but Jason grounds it in so much reality that that’s one of the things I love is he’s being silly, but then he gives a little wink to the audience of there’s something deeper of reason why I’m deflecting with the joke or trying to make you comfortable with the joke or open you up with this joke, especially with him and Rebecca and how he just keeps working at her and then they kind of reach a deeper relationship.

Well, everybody in that way, Keeley and Rebecca and Roy and Keeley and Jamie and Roy, they all kind of have this friction that then breaks down into a real relationship, which has been really enjoyable to kind of, I guess create in the editing room.

Gillian Truster:

You also brought a clip with you. Do you want to set that clip up?

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

Sure. This is from season two, episode 205 called Rainbow. It’s basically, it’s basically the rom communism episode where it’s a romantic comedy, but it’s not about love interest, it’s about the love of football and Roy Kent’s return to the pitch. It’s basically the romantic comedy of Roy and football and actually between him and Jason really, or Ted. Yes, and he’s retired after season one and he’s become a sports announcer and he thinks this is where he needs to be. He needs to be away from the pitch but our team captain Isaac is having a bad start of the season and Ted wants a big dog Roy to come in and kind of set him straight and get him on the right path to get out of his head. So Ted has kind of asked Roy to do this, and he has helped him.

One night he comes and he takes Isaac to his hometown football field and plays a scrappy pickup game with some of the guys there that are really, really good pickup game. He gets his love of the game back and Roy has kind of done that for him. Now it’s game day. Roy is on the show for the, it’s soccer Saturday I think it’s called. Yeah, starts there.

Gillian Truster:

Let’s roll the clip.

[clip plays]

Gillian Truster:

Thank you very much. That’s a great clip. Why did you select this clip?

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

For me, it was, when I think about Ted Lasso, it’s like, again, it’s not really about the football, it’s about what’s going on in these people’s lives. And that was such a turning point for him. There was a bunch of different ways you could cut that, but I chose to stay on him for longer and not cut around to all the things that were happening because he’s going through this decision moment. That’s basically what Ted Lasso is about, is these people going through these really real things and we have to cut it in a way that you are on that journey with him. When it starts out, it’s ratatat back and forth with the commentators. Then as you’re going and he’s seeing what’s happening, his change that he imparted onto Isaac and the team, when you come back out, you just stay with him and you see it on his face and you hear the announcers having the conversation in the background, but it’s not about that for him anymore.

He’s making his decision to not do this anymore. I remember I cut the scene basically how it is, and then when the director came in, she was like, “I think maybe we need to see the guys that they’re saying it’s lovely weather back there and all that stuff.” I was like, “Sure, I could cut it that way, but I did it this way because who cares about that at this point? Roy doesn’t care about that. Why would we go there?” She was like, “Yeah, I get that, I get that, but let’s see it that way.” I cut a version of it and then she was like, “Oh no, you’re right. Go back to how that was.” It was important to go through that process because that’s traditionally how you do it. Somebody’s talking, go to them. You should see it that way, sort of thing. Ultimately it was about his character and what he is going through.

Gillian Truster:

Thank you Melissa. Omar and Sam let’s get into it, because I think that your show does share some of the same challenges that Melissa experienced in terms of tone and finding the right tone and music for your show. You brought a trailer with you. Why don’t we roll that clip to set that up for the audience.

 

[clip plays]

Gillian Truster:

Thank you for showing that. That’s a great trailer. Sort Of has been on a lot of top 10 lists for 2021. It premiered at Tiff. It’s gotten a lot of acclaim. It’s a show that similarly to your main character or a lot of the characters actually don’t fit into any typical boxes. It doesn’t fit into boxes. Was it difficult for you to find the tone of this show? How did you find the tone of this show? What do you think the tone of this show is?

Omar Majeed:

We had to really discover the tone of the show and it was a process. I think it’s very fitting that actually Sam and I are both here on the panel. Because even though we had our individual episodes, especially in the beginning, there was a lot of back and forth on episodes that I was working on and that Sam was working on. We would share a lot and just sort of trade off ideas with Fab and Bilal who were the creators of the show to really define what wasn’t even, I think clear to all of us at first in terms of we kind of knew what the show wasn’t more than maybe what the show was, and we had to figure out a lot of things along the way. The character of Sabi is not a very usual character and that’s obviously something to be celebrated.

I think that presented unique challenges tonally. Melissa, like what you were saying, and I’m sure for you as well similar feelings about in this genre is supposed to be funny. I tend to feel like some of these words we use in television are so outdated in a weird way. It’s like it’s a comedy drama, but it’s like we think of comedy, our association is mainly the high comedy, the broad comedy. We think of drama, you think of high stakes drama and life is so often lived in the middle zones of those extremes. Then you play something high concept like WandaVision in there and it feels like, oh, we got to have huge big action, not scale things down to emotions of grief. Similarly for a character like Sabi, they’re queer, they’re marginalized, they’re racialized. These are labels that we tend to think of as having high stakes drama or outrageous comedy. I think we were trying to find what was more just the authentic truth of the character and that situation and also the characters around Sabi because they mattered just as much as Sabi did. What are your thoughts there, Sam?

Sam Thomson:

No, absolutely. I mean I totally agree with that. I think from the get go, it was really important from for Bilal and Fab to have this be a show that was about a non-binary or trans character that wasn’t about their body or about some of the other frequent sort of storylines that end up popping up about these types of characters on television and have it just be just more universal and about their humanity. There’s a line in the show that I think we come back through often, which is we’re all in transition and we’re all sort of constantly experience transition in our life and not every transition is the same or is it seen the same way in society. I think that was the core of the show is that we’re all in transition. I think for Sabi, that character, the show is about identity and just defining who you are and feeling comfortable in who you are.

It’s a journey that I think everybody can relate to. Then in terms of the process around that, I’ll echo, what Omar is saying about, repeating what Melissa was saying, I think it was hard to define how funny the show is going to be or how broad it’s going to be. I mean a lot of it was already on the page, but I think that was a huge part of the editing process was testing different directions and then seeing where we could come back to. Sometimes it feels like sometimes it feels like a little bit of a circle and sometimes you’re discovering new things along the way. I think just the fact that we could be experimental and that we had kind of the support to do that and the time to do that, but also be really collaborative like Omar was saying, just to lean on each other for new ideas. I think that was the biggest, I don’t know, the biggest takeaway I guess from the process in general.

Gillian Truster:

Yeah, I really want to get into the collaborative process on your show because I feel like, so you could say this show is about a queer, trans-feminine, non-binary, Pakistani Canadian Muslim, but it’s really not reducible to those descriptors. I think your show has really gone out of its way, just as you said, to do that. I had seen an interview between Bilal Baig and who plays Sabi and Amanda Cordner, who plays their best friend 7ven. Bilal said something like, they’re straddling all these identities, but it’s not the identity stuff that keeps them up at night. It’s like, are the kids okay? Am I letting my best friend down? Am I letting my mother down? Is the bar going to close? It’s just all this human stuff. It’s just about how people navigate the world. The show really is, it’s really trying, I mean there’s so many different people in the show and it’s really trying to find the authenticity. Everybody has depth down to the most minor characters. What was the collaboration process on your show to achieve that?

Sam Thomson:

Wow. I mean I think initially, Omar and I both knew Fab through different sort of origins. I think for us to get to know each other, a lot of it was maybe about sharing musical ideas or film ideas and things like that early on just to talk about tone because it’s like Omar brings his lived experience to the editing process and I have my own experience. And it’s like, I think again, to go back to the collaborative nature was just us having the freedom to be open-minded, to ask questions of each other and not assume that we know the answers and be comfortable with that. It was such a strange experience I think in so many ways.

I mean know, we don’t really want to get into the technical stuff too much, but we’re all sort of remote on this. It was sort of during the height of Covid and we’re just sort of trying to feel out what the show is and that’s a process and feel out each other. We were cutting while they were shooting and it was just a lot happening sort of all at once. We can speak to other sort of specifics like music and a few other things were very important in terms of that part of the process. I don’t know Omar if you wanted to say anything else just about the initial collaboration.

Omar Majeed:

I think that’s sort of the thing I would say the show’s, I really feel the show’s success owes a lot to the spirit of collaboration because I think this is a bit of a double-edged sword for me being somebody who kind of occasionally benefits from these diversity kind of initiatives. But the show did have real diversity in its, it worked weaved into its actual collaboration. The writer’s room was diverse. They were well represented in the edit suite in the sense that both Fab and Bilal were very actively involved in the edit. Then at the same time.

Omar Majeed:

Actively involved in the edit, and then at the same time, Sam and I are collaborating back and forth. And then there was other editors on the show. There’s Craig, who I didn’t get a chance to work with directly, but he as well, and we’re all sharing ideas and bringing our own experiences into things and discussing stuff. Even just to be able to raise a point, if I thought maybe there was something let’s say from a Pakistani angle that maybe let’s say rubbed me the wrong way, well, I wasn’t the only person speaking to that point. Bilal, they would put their opinion in. The writers had obviously, they had enough sort of lived experience there to speak to those points as well. The cast… It was all reflected in such a way that no one had to be the one person speaking to one specific experience, whether it was racialized, gender-fluid perspectives or even just the specifics of how you put a show together.

I mean, all of us had varying levels of experience coming into it, but I think there was a sense of like, okay, we’re trying to go for something tonally… I mean, I’ve heard the show described in some reviews as having a certain sort of gentleness, and we didn’t think of it that way, but it sort of hits as like, yeah, that sort of makes sense. We were I think consciously not trying to go for… Even though one of the characters in the show is in a coma in the hospital, it’s not like, “Oh my god,” or it’s not like laugh out loud pratfalls kind of comedy. I mean, we did have those experimentations here and there, mostly towards trying to make it more comedic, but I think it was always clear that, no, it sort of occupied a sort of middle zone here where the comedy isn’t like I-got-you-in-stitches, MacGruber kind of style comedy.

I’m speaking to my own sense of humor here. It’s more of the comedy grounded in the characters and the absurdity of certain situations. And I think we had to figure that out through a lot of real discussion where no one, I think, had to feel the burden of having to speak for one specific thing. It was real, genuine discussion on an artistic level, not just on the level of identity. So inside the show and outside the show, we touched on those issues, but it wasn’t those kinds of discussions, if that makes sense.

Gillian Truster:

Mm-hmm, fantastic, thank you. No, because I read an interview or an article about Bilal, and they were talking about the same thing that you’re mentioning, which is that it would have been very stressful for them to be the only non-binary person on the show, but what you had is real diversity, where you’re not relying on a single person to speak for an entire group of people, where there’s a spectrum within every group. There’s diversity within groups. And so I think part of the reason why you achieve such authenticity in the depth of your characters is, it sounds like, because of this collaborative process. That collaborative process is really the heart of your show.

Omar Majeed:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, even just one example comes to mind where I think one time, and I don’t know, I think in the end this didn’t even happen in the show, but just as an example of the kinds of things we would have, I was just talking with Fab about how to structure a scene, and then I was thinking about the music that’d be playing in the background in the scene between Sabi and their mother, and they’re playing music that their mother would enjoy. So I was trying to think, okay, what’s a Pakistani kind of piece that would work? And so I put a couple things in there, and Fabri liked it, but then I went and had a discussion with Bilal about it too, and then we got into this whole thread about what would Raffo have liked? How would she have grown up? And you know what I mean?

So it was an interesting… It’s one of those type of sidebar conversations you have that are very deep, that you go, okay, maybe it doesn’t even come into the final edit, but it was informative because we were sharing our own references. But it was like Bilal and I were sort of frequently trying to figure out what would be a good… And this was just for temp purposes, but we were trying to figure out what is the right tone. So tone was everything, I think, for us and trying to figure that out. And in terms of pacing, in terms of how to work with music, how to work with each other, and even how to fight back against certain boxes that maybe we were feeling pressured to conform to kind of echo some of what Melissa was talking about.

Gillian Truster:

Thank you. Thank you. So speaking of smaller moments and a warm, gentle show, so Bridgerton is not. So Jim, let’s get into Bridgerton a bit. So this series reached number one in 76 countries on Netflix, and it became the most watched series on Netflix ever at the time of its premier. So it is a monster hit, just a monster hit.

Jim Flynn, ACE:

A lot of people saw it, and it’s great.

Gillian Truster:

That must feel quite good, to have worked on something that just blows up like that. So a question I have before we get into sort of creative challenges is this. So Bridgeton is a Shondaland production. Shonda Rhimes is known for being a hitmaker. I mean, she really knows how to read the tea leaves. When you’re working on a Shondaland production, is working with Shonda Rhimes different than working with other producers? When you go into the show, does she say to everybody, “Okay, everyone, we are making a hit show, and this is what we need to do?” Or is she just like any other producer just trying to make the best show they can?

Jim Flynn, ACE:

Well, I mean I think all producers are different, but Shonda is different still. I’d never worked with Shonda before, but if she said at any point, “We’re going to go and make a hit, and here we go,” it wasn’t in my presence. But she does know how to do that, and her instincts are so attuned to how to construct a series for television better than anyone I’ve ever worked with by a lot. And she doesn’t even seem to spend any time sort of contemplating any ideas. She’s so direct, she’s so frank. She seems to know exactly what she wants all the time, and she makes sure that she gets it.

It’s a treat working with her. She’s a force of nature. She’s a little intimidating, and she’s very, very brief when she speaks to you or when she sends you notes, which at first blush you’re kind of like, whoa, she didn’t really like what I sent. But then over time you realize actually this is a great way to deal with her notes. She just tells you “This sucks. Take it out. Don’t use that. I don’t know why you used this take. We should do this.” And it’s really refreshing. It’s not couched in any sort of pleasantries. She doesn’t have the time.

Gillian Truster:

Right, she just gets right to the point, right to the heart of the matter.

Jim Flynn, ACE:

For sure.

Gillian Truster:

I actually forgot to ask, for those who haven’t had a chance to see the show, what is Bridgerton about?

Jim Flynn, ACE:

Bridgerton is a Regency-era period piece, but it’s kind of put through a bit of a Shondaland prism, I guess. It’s very modern. The cast is much more diverse than a Merchant Ivory type film. The moments and the beats feel very modern, and it’s really trying to appeal and presumably has appealed to a much younger audience than normally you would get with a period piece romance.

Gillian Truster:

So you also brought a clip with you. I think that clip does give a good idea of what the show is about. Do you want to set that clip up for us?

Jim Flynn, ACE:

No, go ahead and watch it. I think it speaks for itself, and then I can talk to about it when we wrap.

Gillian Truster:

Perfect. Let’s roll the clip.

[clip plays]

Gillian Truster:

Tell us about it.

Jim Flynn, ACE:

Well, I know I was originally going to bring something from the pilot, a much bigger event, but when I sort of went through the show again, thinking about this panel, I thought, well, this would also be a nice one to do, because I think what that moment does in the series, it happens in the third episode, and the premise of the show is basically the… The show is about this Bridgerton family, and Daphne Bridgeton, who is the oldest daughter, is being sort of shopped out to find her husband and seek her fortune and the sort of complexity that goes with that. And so her and this Duke Simon, who sort of become these friends, they come up with the dumbest ruse of all time, which is they’ll pretend that they’re going together so that they can get other people to be more interested in them.

So to that point in the series, they had sort of put on a show that, yes, we’re together, we’re walking through the park, we’re dancing at this ball, we’re doing all these things, and then suddenly in this episode, the two find themselves by themselves, and they realize that there is a real energy between the two of them. There’s a real chemistry. And I think the scene itself is just very well crafted and not just from my perspective. Tom Verica, who directed it, did a fantastic job with his episodes. I’m sure some of you know Tom.

But just the costuming, she’s in white, he’s in black, the way they staged it, where they were facing away from each other, then she turns around, you can see the whole scene, the distance between them getting smaller and smaller in the frames. And then I went to these closeups one after the other as she’s describing this painting and he is realizing that this person is special to him, and then the hands start to come together, and I think it’s sexy, and I think it’s really cool, and I think it represented a big change in their relationship, and that became what their relationship was from that point going forward, this sort of just barely reaching out, I’m doing this very slowly, I’m doing this very gently, and I just thought it was very, very well executed.

Gillian Truster:

It’s definitely a very memorable moment in the series. It’s like one of the iconic moments in the series, absolutely.

Jim Flynn, ACE:

I’m glad, because it’s such a small little moment. There’s so many big moments in the show, and that moment, that the fans reacted the way that they did to that moment, and that I’m so proud of it I brought it to a panel, I’m really happy that it had that big an impact, because I remember working on that scene and just being over the moon about how cool it was.

Gillian Truster:

Mm-hmm, amazing. So Bridgerton is a very modern take on a period piece. There’s been discussion… I’ve read about the multiracial casting, and also, like you said, typically you would think of a period piece as very conservative. This is not. I would not feel comfortable watching this series with my parents, I can tell you that.

Jim Flynn, ACE:

It’s funny. Actually, I’m working on it in my house, and this was at the beginning of the pandemic. This was when? This was April, maybe, and I’m working on Episode Six, which… Episode Six has a little sex in it, and I’m working in my living room. My children are all at home. I have a 16-year-old daughter and a 13-year-old son, and they’re working in their rooms on their schoolwork. And my wife’s a school teacher. She’s in the kitchen, and she’s working on her work, and I’m just working on the sex scene like I would normally work on a sex scene, and my wife came in the room, and she’s like, “What are you doing?” And I’m like, “I’m doing my job.” But I realized I had to put headphones on to work on Episode Six at home with my family.

Gillian Truster:

Oh yeah, the joys of working from home. That is hilarious. So what do you have to consider when you’re modernizing a period piece in terms of the picture edit?

Jim Flynn, ACE:

It’s interesting. There were moments that we played and it was edited to be much more sort of period piece-y when the scenes would kind of call for that, but when we were kind of bumping up against the edges of a more modern sensibility, more the Daphne stuff, Daphne’s older sister, the smoker, stuff like that, we would play that, and it was cut much more in a modern fashion. And I think the contrast of the two cutting styles we benefited from because you could be watching it in one perspective and then suddenly it feels like you’re watching a bit of a different show, which I embraced and did as often as I could.

Gillian Truster:

So I understand you cut the pilot, and I understand that that was the last episode delivered to Netflix. So what was the reason for that decision to deliver the-?

Jim Flynn, ACE:

Well, Julie Anne Robinson directed the pilot. She’s fantastic. The pilot, it’s almost like a theme of this panel. We had to figure out exactly what is the tone of the show. And I think everyone pretty much across the board here has basically kind of come around to the same thing, which is we’ll understand the tone when we understand who these people are. And when we figured out who Daphne and Simon really were, this being the first season… The second season, which I’m not involved in, I guess is subsequent Bridgerton members. But when we figured out who these people were, and not just Daphne and Simon, also Daphne’s mom and Lady Danbury and Anthony and all of the other characters, then we were kind of like, okay, that’s what this show needs to be. And the pilot is setting the table for all of that.

And it’s a huge cast, huge locations, huge events, big balls, that a tone shift of a few degrees has ripple effects from the start to the tail pop. So we spent a lot of time refining that, and we went in a few different directions. An early pass of mine, it was very broad. We had Lady Danbury could be very broad, over the top. It was funny, but we couldn’t fit that in with the rest of the events. So it just took a long time to figure out who are all these people, what are their relationships with all of the other people, and how do they fit in this space?

Gillian Truster:

So you wanted to see the entire series first so that you could figure out exactly how to set it up properly at the outset?

Jim Flynn, ACE:

Yeah, because each of the episodes is really kind of a different story with a lot of other threads from a lot of other different characters and a lot of other different people, so there was a lot of going back and fitting things back into where they need to be because, “Well, we need to set this up for Episode Six, and Episode Four we’re going to need to know who this Penelope character is because when this happens we need to…” You know what I mean? So we spend a lot of time refining Episode One to it. And it was fun. I don’t mind. I was the first guy off and the last guy to walk off at the end. I was there the whole time, which was great, got to see all the other episodes develop and go through and make One what we wanted One to be.

Gillian Truster:

Fantastic. So I’d like to know from all of you, what is it you think resonated with audiences? So, Nona, let’s start with you. What is it about WandaVision that you really think moved people?

Nona Khodai, ACE:

I think timing was essential for WandaVision. It came out at the height of the pandemic, January, 2021. Everyone was home. There was nothing new on television, I think, at that point, and we were airing on Fridays. So every Friday people would come around, and it felt like those old sitcoms that we would watch when I was growing up, like TGIF with Family Matters and Full House. I mean, I grew up with that. I don’t know if you have that. I didn’t know if you had that in Canada or not, but in America we had the Friday every night we would watch with my family. And so I think it had that same kind of quality, the feeling, and so everyone would watch it on Friday nights with their families.

And I think because we were all going through this grief of the pandemic, it also resonated in that way. She was going through grief. We were all also grieving or what we had just gone through and still are still going through, and I think it just… Timing. It’s because of the timing. It’s a great show, but I think the timing really helped too.

Jim Flynn, ACE:

Yeah, the show felt like comfort food in the beginning.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Yeah.

Jim Flynn, ACE:

It was like, “This feels really comfortable, and I’m really, really happy here.” And then it just gets off the rails. But it’s great. I love the show.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Aw, thanks. Love yours too.

Gillian Truster:

Well, Jim, what do you think it is about your show?

Jim Flynn, ACE:

I mean, I have to agree with Nona a little bit because we released on Christmas Day on the first Christmas of the pandemic, and people were looking for escapism, I think. And I think we delivered that in spades, and I think it’s beautiful, and I think that the acting is fantastic, and the editing is top notch.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

It’s beautiful.

Jim Flynn, ACE:

It’s beautiful to watch, yeah.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Personally, I’ll say, I loved it. I love that series so much, and it was a huge escape. And I love period pieces, so to have even modern day music play classically, I thought that was so cool and so different, and it was just a delight to watch.

Jim Flynn, ACE:

Thank you.

Gillian Truster:

Melissa, what do you think it is about Ted Lasso?

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

Same, really. We released in the pandemic, and I think all of us are touching on, and Jason kind of mentioned this too. Jason, we didn’t know we were going to go into a pandemic, but he was just like, “I feel like people don’t want cynicism anymore.” That was something he really was into. If we had a joke in there, he was like, “I feel that’s like a little bit too mean for Ted.” And he would mention, “I want the locker room, that’s our Cheers set.” You know what I mean? He’s really into Cheers because his uncle is Norm from Cheers, little fact, but so he has a lot of Cheers references.

Jim Flynn, ACE:

No kidding? I didn’t know that.

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Omar Majeed:

When I head that, I was like, “Oh my god.”

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Yeah.

Omar Majeed:

I was dazzled when I heard that. I was like, oh my God.

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

Yeah, There?s a lot of cheers reference…

Jim Flynn, ACE:

[inaudible 01:09:05] years old when I heard that.

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

Yeah. A lot of cheers references in Ted.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Wait.

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

But yeah, and then we… He was saying that as we were working on it, so it was just looking back, I’m like, God, he was so… He had such a vision. He was like, I just don’t, people don’t want cynicism anymore. He’s like, I get that kind of comedy, but I don’t want to do that. And so when we dropped, We weren’t some big… I think people came to it and were like, this show is Major League. This show is going to just be goofy American. And then word spread of people that stuck with it and was like, oh no, they go deeper. And all of us have kind of touched on the human condition of our shows. And I think at that time, people, it was a scary time and a traumatic time.

But there’s still comedy, there’s still life happening. And like Omar said, it’s, there’s a lot of, even though you are going through something that’s not traditionally funny, there’s a lot of comedy in that, sometimes unintentional comedy. You still find time to laugh even in the hardest times I think sometimes. And so our show touched on that. These people are divorced and hurt and shame and not feeling good enough or father issues. We touched on a lot of that in season two. It’s just all these things that are universal to a lot of people. And when people were seeking connection, I think we’re all home and by ourselves. You want to be with some friends and people that make you feel good. And I think that’s what Ted Lasso did for people and then…

Jim Flynn, ACE:

It’s also, it’s so full of optimism and gratitude. It’s just a really, it’s a great show.

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

Yeah.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Yeah. Believe, it’s so silly, but I heard a lot of sports teams use that motto now. And it’s so great to see. It’s so positive, which we all need.

Gillian Truster:

It’s a celebration of kindness, really. It is. And so Omar and Sam, what are your thoughts on?

 

Sam Thomson:

Well, I think for me, well first of all, our release was actually a little bit different in the sense that it was almost like a show that I think people were discovering. We had a more of a media push maybe here locally, but we initially released on streaming, on CBC Gem, and then it went to CBC broadcast, and then about a month later was when it premiered on HBO Max. So it’s been this slow rollout. But I think Melissa really brings up a point that I hadn’t really thought about in a while, but it really connects with our show, which is, I think The Fab, I think had said this at our TIFF screening about the comedy and being, comedy that isn’t really mean towards anyone else. It’s not cynical. It’s not tearing down other people, to have that humor shine.

And I think that was something that was refreshing and fun about working on this show is that it lacked that cynicism that I think you all have said we needed, especially during the pandemic. We needed that positivity or escapism or whatever. But yeah, I think in general the comedy was something maybe I was a little surprised that connected with the audiences because as an editor you watch it so much and the jokes start to… You’re fine-tuning things within frames and trying to figure out, is this funny or not? I can’t tell anymore. But even being at that first TIFF screening and hearing an audience laughing and howling with laughter and all these little moments that you’d forgotten about, it was really refreshing. And I think just the comedy and also having these characters that I feel like traditionally you feel like people traditionally, maybe a lot of people would feel like they can’t relate to them in a direct way because of who they are or whatever.

I think that’s been a really fun, surprising things as I talk to people, is how people can really relate to these characters, even if they have a completely different lived experience. They can relate to just the human condition, I guess, or this idea of transition or whatever. It’s a relatable show I guess, which was a bit surprising for me but… What about you Omar?

Omar Majeed:

Yeah, I echo all of that. But I would say as well, it really strikes me being on this panel having… I had binge-watched all of these shows during the pandemic. Big panel of all of every them. But what’s remarkable to me thinking about them as a group as well, is that they hit a comfort zone like Ted Lasso and the sitcom’s dynamics. And Bridgerton with its period peace elements and Wanda Vision and the Marvel universe thing. But they’re also really smart evolutions on that they’re variations, and I think is similar in the sense that we’ve had shows that have tackled representation head on in terms of Queer As Folk or Master Of None or shows like this that really kind of what are trying to set a certain record straight or adjust the bar. And I think Sort Of is coming into a new space in that way where it’s not simply about representation. It’s about, okay, now let’s just put this… That’s the situation the character finds themselves into, but we’re going to rely on certain dynamics.

So there’s a comforting aspect that all of the shows that we’ve worked on and it’s enough that kind of is, that brings it in. But it’s not just a kind of throwback or nostalgic exercise. I think that’s really amazing. It’s an evolution, a turn of the dial. So I think that was also what audiences tended to gravitate towards.

Gillian Truster:

So I could ask a million questions, but I want to leave all of you time to ask each other questions. So let’s open it up, let’s open it up and let’s see what happens. I’m excited to see what this discussion is.

 

Nona Khodai, ACE:

I actually have a couple questions for Omar and Sam. So I love the fact, I love the show. I watched all episodes. I wish that it was a little longer, to be quite honest because I really wanted to watch them all. I was wondering, I like that the whole Pakistani, non-binary, Muslim element to it. I grew up Muslim, so having that as a show is really great. And to see that and did you guys have a lot of conversations about how to incorporate it? And I love how it’s not forced down your throat. There’s no talk about it really. And was there more of that that you took out or was it just the way it was written and that’s just the way it was? But I was wondering how you approached that in the show.

Omar Majeed:

Yeah, I think from my perspective, it seemed like, obviously being someone who’s… I’m also Pakistani background, grew up Muslim. I tended to ask a lot of questions and bring up those kinds of discussion points. And like I said, because everyone was in sort of involved with everyone else’s edits, we comment and watch and discuss and figure things out. It wasn’t so segmented. There was a lot of discussion that would go into, does this make sense? But I think that was, like I said, it was there all the way from the beginning through the end. So I know those discussions had been ongoing. So a lot of it was as it wasn’t in the script and there wasn’t a lot of room to play around with, I felt for the most part. It was mostly, again, these tonal sort of things.

But I know, I think early on, one of the things I came to understand about it was, Sabi as a character has these elements in them, but not, any of those things defines them. So you only bring up these things as it applies to the story. So we’re going to get into being Muslim or being Pakistani or how their gender fluidity or queerness unless it made sense to the specific scene. And in some senses it’s similar to Wanda vision in a way where it’s like you’ve just dropped into a reality. You have to figure some stuff out for yourself. And personally I like not having to explain because then you feel like you’re…

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Preaching.

Omar Majeed:

Yeah. You’re kind of like, yeah, you’re putting it through a, quote unquote, like a white lens so to speak, where you’re like, okay, this is what we are. But here it’s just like, no, this is the circumstances. So you never really know. You still don’t know by the end of the season certain things about Sabi, like what are their views on being Muslim or how do dynamics work in the family exactly? You understand certain things, but other things are left mysterious. And somebody who’s grown up in a Pakistani family and is nearing 50, I still find certain things mysterious. So it seems accurate. I don’t understand [inaudible 01:18:21] out for you, but I think… It was a lot about, really about what, you only bring these things up as they need to come into play. You find that, did you find that for you as well, Sam?

Sam Thomson:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think we wanted to have it be representative of what Toronto feels like to live in too. It’s a very sort of Toronto show where it’s just part of the texture of the city, and is a very diverse sort of culture. And one specific thing I just remember from Post that kind of relates to this was for a while we were actually debating whether we would subtitle any of the sort of non-English languages that were used throughout the show. And I feel like that was kind of an indicator, even just the fact that that was a debate, that this is the world, this is how it exists, and people can… We don’t need to explain everything in a really sort of prescriptive way. This is just sort of the texture of the world of who all these people are. And we did end up subtitling in the end. We had to, but still.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

 Oh, great.

Omar Majeed:

I think my proudest moment of influence on the show was getting them to change a reference to, they were talking about some dish that was being made, and I think initially it might have been Buttered Chicken, and I was like, change it to korai. That was my one thing. Yay for me.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

That’s awesome.

Sam Thomson:

I actually had a question, kind of a general question for Nona. we sort of hit this in our little pre-talk, but I legitimately was very curious to know what was it like just working? How do you even do it? How do you make a show like Wanda Vision with all of the VFX heavy? And I mean obviously I’m sure this applies to Melissa and Jim too, but I just don’t have that experience. I’ve worked in animation a little bit, so I’m used to doing animatics and things like that. But just, what is that process like? Are you dealing with green screen footage? Are you dealing with building things? I’m very curious.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Yeah. So we’re really lucky at Marvel to be able to have a lot of tools at our disposal, especially companies to help us pre-vis and post-vis, VFX heavy moments in the show, to tell the story for timing purposes. So say we’ll have like, so that clip that I showed, the moment she goes, she explodes back into whatever into her world. That was all done on green screen, outside. The backgrounds actually were all, it was on a back lot in Los Angeles, but we had to make it look like New Jersey. So all of that was filmed, part of it was filmed in Atlanta, and part of it was filmed in LA so we had to merge the background and the foreground together even as she was walking out. So just a normal shot you would think. But those were all the effect shots too. And we have this post-vis previous company called the Third Floor that helps us basically put in all the backgrounds and all the elements so we can time the shots properly.

And so we’ll time it out and then we’ll send those shots to the vendors with the post-vis on them to show basically what we’re doing. That whole sequence, I had to get post-vis, they pre-vised it and then they shot it, but they always shoot differently than the pre-vis always. So I had to recut it to make it work. And then we added post-vis to it. So all the wipes of from day present to past all those wipes, we had to add in post-vis. And then they shot that way later too. So I really had to cut those quickly in. I had timed it all out. We had pre-vis in places where I knew what the transitions were, but they also did shoot them differently too. So we did all those and then we sent it out to the vendors and then they gave us the shots back and then we would rework them in the cut until we finished. But yeah, it’s a lot of other people helping us kind of build and build until we get it right.

It feels daunting at first, but I always feel like it’s just normal editing, if you’re just getting the emotion out of the actors and the rest is easy because you have other people helping you. And Melissa, you have a lot in Ted Lasso too. You could talk about all those soccer games, all of that. That’s all visual effects. So, how about you?

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

Yeah, we do the pre-vis with to map out the games, the game play. And our season one, even before that, we just, because they shot all of the football scenes over a couple of nights for all the episodes, and so they had a specific amount of time. So we got the scripts and AJ the other editor and I, we each for episode, I was pulling YouTube clips and stock footage and just to get the beats and putting it together with title cards, like roy kicks and get the beats down. And then our VFX house was sending us the animatics and then we would replace that, and then we sent those packages over to London and the directors were like, this is wonderful because now I know what I need to check off. And then they were able to send us back even more. I feel like we gave them the building blocks for if you can get this, we can tell the story and then open them up with more time to get us some really cool things that I was like, oh, I didn’t have this in there and this is wonderful.

They had some really beautiful tracking shots and things like that. So yeah, we did a lot of that. But even in the scene I showed, just thinking we had to go going from the studio to the field. I was like, this isn’t, just cutting there, didn’t feel right. And I went and, because soccer Saturday is an actual show, so I was like, they have to have cut to a clip and have some sort of transition piece. And so I was scrubbing through YouTube to try to find an example, and then luckily, there’s so many wonderful people that work on the show that can help. So we had a VFX editor and I was like, can you match something like this that can get us there? That’s what opens up into the field is what their transition would be for the show. And he did it and it was so beautiful.

I was like, oh my God, thank you so much. And then they would shoot those with the actual cameras that they used for the show. So we got that footage and then they would do the actual Ted lasso camera, which is more handheld. And so they had run the show and Roy had done all the speech and all that stuff, and then they got in there with the handheld and they kept the cameras running, but the handheld camera. So the camera was in the scene sometimes, and then our director, Erica, who was phenomenal and did such a wonderful job in this show, and she was in there and I think maybe one of the writers was in there and you saw their shoulders in the studio cameras, but that was his best performance that met, I could go between Roy on the camera and Roy in real life, and I was just like, I don’t want to go to the earlier takes where it was clean because he’s… It’s just not, even though the performances are like, I’m so blessed with the performances, they’re so wonderful, but that was the performance that I needed.

And so I said, I tempted in, and I was like, look, his shoulder from this, we could. So it luckily never went in front of his face so that his actual shoulders are vfx. So there’s things like that that you don’t even see because we’re trying to get the character moments just right. And I was like, luckily you’re in a space where people are like, I see what you’re trying to do and not being like, just use an earlier take where they’re not in the camera. And I’m like, but you see there’s just a subtle, it’s wonderful. That’s beautiful, but this is the performance.

But I was thinking of what Jim said where he was saying, I could have gone with one of the bigger scenes, but this moment I feel like these little moments set up the bigger… If you don’t get those right, it doesn’t set up those big amazing scenes. And so there’s almost, you have that pride of I got this interpersonal moment right and that allows us to luxuriate. And I felt that in your clip too, where you really have that patience and finding that timing where you’re like, let’s sit in this moment and build this moment, and then we can bust into the big… When her heart explodes.

All the effects, but setting it up. And I really love that in both of those scenes, the patience and the build to them. And I’m just wondering, how often do you go back and watch and say, oh, I could give this more frames, or maybe I rush this moment and I could really luxuriate here and take some time there. Is it a process where you go back? Or are you like… Yeah, what’s your process of refining those moments to get them just right, so then you can go big?

Nona Khodai, ACE:

For me or for Jim?  Jim, why don’t you answer that one?

Jim Flynn, ACE:

I work with a director who, his expression is, you don’t ever finish a scene, you abandon it. And so when I, because I was watching those scenes from Bridgerton, and I was like, God damn, why don’t I have eight more frame in the tail of that shot? Or I could have done this or I’m never done editing, so it’s never perfect to me, but it’s good enough. I guess

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

That feels comforting because I feel that too. I’m always watching it and being like, oh, and my husband hates watching my stuff with me, and he’s just like, nut it’s fine. And I’m like… I’m just so hard on myself. So that’s good to hear. I’m not alone.

Nona Khodai, ACE:

I feel the same way. I feel I can’t watch my cuts. It’s really hard. That’s why it took me so long to figure out what scene to show. I didn’t know, I was going to do the bedroom scene with Vision and Wanda on the bed. I was thinking about that and I asked my assistant, should I show this? And they’re like, no, it’s a edit panel. You got to show editing. And I was like, but it’s editing. It was good. He was like, No, you got to show like a big moment. I was like, okay. But I was going to pick a very quiet moment too, like Jim. It’s so funny, but because it’s so hard to know.

Omar Majeed:

Because yeah, I honestly was very touched by the ending of WandaVision. Who am I kidding? I was just weeping. Anyways, so…

Nona Khodai, ACE:

Oh, Thank you.

Omar Majeed:

So I wasn’t expecting that, but what was great about that, that scene is everything that came before it too. And I think as editors, we appreciate those kinds of things too, where it’s the slow build up. Those little moments that really earn you those bigger ones. Just like this, that’s a deeply satisfying feeling you get when their hands start moving towards each other. You’re just like, oh, I’m so glad it took its time and went there, did this, and now it’s happening and I feel warm inside.

 

Jim Flynn, ACE:

It’s character. If you buy the characters and you like the characters, if their chest explodes and their house builds around and you’re like, Go house! If you didn’t care about them then it wouldn’t really matter that much. So if you can make your absolutely audience care about your characters, you can do all sorts of great stuff.

Gillian Truster:

I think that is the perfect way to end this panel because unfortunately we are out of time and I’m just enjoying so much listening to all of you. You’re also articulate and talented and charming, and this time has flown by, flown by. But thank you so much for taking the time for this chat. It’s been so much fun. Thank you.

Sam Thomson:

Thank you.

Jim Flynn, ACE:

Thank you all.

Melissa McCoy, ACE:

Thank you for having me. Nice to meet you all.

Omar Majeed:

Nice to meet you all too.

Jim Flynn, ACE:

Bye-bye.

Gillian Truster:

Pleasure, you guys.

Sarah Taylor:

Thanks so much for joining us today. And a big thanks goes out to our panelists and moderator. A special thanks goes to the 2022 Editcon Planning committee, Alison Dowler and Kim Mctaggart, CCE. The main title Sound Design was created by Jane Tattersall, additional ADR recording by Andrea Rush. Original music created by Chad Blain and Soundstripe. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. The CCE is proud to support HireBIPOC. HireBIPOC is the definitive and ubiquitous industry-wide roster of Canadian BIPOC, creatives and crew working in screen-based industries. Check out hirebipoc.ca to hire your next crew or create a profile and get hired.

Speaker 20:

The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member, please visit our website, www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.



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The Editors Cut

Episode 073 – EditCon 2022: This Year in Canadian Film

The Editor's Cut: Episode 073 - Editcon 2022: This Year in Canadian Film

Episode 073 - EditCon 2022: This Year in Canadian Film

Today?s episode is part 1 of our 4 part series covering EditCon 2022 Brave New World.

Today?s panel is This Year in Canadian Film. 2021 saw the film industry bounce back with a fervor hardly seen before. With it has come a wealth of powerful and diverse home grown stories, such as the poignant sibling drama ALL MY PUNY SORROWS; the brilliant and raw SCARBOROUGH; 2022?s Canadian Oscar entry DRUNKEN BIRDS; and the gripping sci-fi thriller NIGHT RAIDERS. Join the editors behind the best that Canada has to offer as they talk storytelling in an intimate conversation.

This episode was generously sponsored by Blackmagic Design.

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The Editor?s Cut – Episode 073 – EditCon 2022: This Year in Canadian Film

Sarah Taylor:

This episode was generously sponsored by Black Magic Design.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

My process that works the best is that I emotionally react to performances, you know. I watch everything. I emotionally react, and I try to cut faster with my intuition than with my thoughts because if I start thinking too much, I get stuck.

Orlee Buium:

I like to watch all of the footage usually behind me on my chair with a wireless keyboard, and I’ll just kind of draw markers whenever I see a performance that I emote to.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

I like to look at the first time I see the dailies not in the cutting room. So it could be home or on my laptop or just to get sort of first impression of the material. And then once I get into the room, then I’ll start marking stuff and making select and things like that.

Sarah Taylor:

Hello and welcome to the Editor’s Cut. I’m your host Sarah Taylor. We would like to point out that the lands on which we have created this podcast and that many of you may be listening to us from are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we are on ancestral territory that has long served as a place where indigenous peoples have lived, met, and interacted. We honor, respect and recognize these nations that have never relinquished their rights for sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many contributions and the concerns that impact indigenous individuals and communities. Land acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.

Today’s episode is part one of the four part series covering EDICON 2022 Brave New World. Today’s panel is This Year in Canadian Film. 2021 saw the film industry bounce back with a fervor hardly seen before. With it has come a wealth of powerful and diverse homegrown stories such as the poignant sibling drama, All My Puny Sorrows, the brilliant and raw Scarborough, 2022’s Canadian Oscar entry, Drunken Birds, and the gripping sci-fi thriller Night Raiders. Join the editors behind the best that Canada has to offer as they talk storytelling in an intimate conversation.

And action. This is the Editor’s Cut.

[show Open]

A CCE podcast.

Exploring, exploring, exploring the art.

Of picture editing.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Hi everyone and welcome to the, This Year in Canadian Film panel at EDICON 2022. I’m Simone Smith. I’m an editor based in Toronto working in film and television, and super happy to be here. We’re super fortunate to have five very talented editors here representing four films, which were all part of Canada’s top 10 as well. So congratulations, everyone. So I have everyone’s bios just to give a little intro to everyone. So to begin with Orlee Buium is an editor with a passion for films with socially conscious content. She has 15 years of experience in the editorial department, including assisting on Kick-Ass two, The Expanse and The Broken Hearts Gallery. Her feature credits as an editor include Queen of the Morning Calm, which was also nominated for a DGC editing award, The Retreat, and Run Woman Run. Most recently Orlee locked picture on Michael McGowan’s latest feature, All My Puny Sorrows, which premiered at TIFF 2021 as a special presentation. Thanks for joining us, Orlee.

Next we have Jorge Weisz, CCE. Jorge was born and raised in Mexico City and is currently based in Toronto. He has worked on award-winning films such as Peter Stebbings Empire of Dirt, which premiered at TIFF 2013, Michel Franco’s, Las Hijas de Abril, sorry if I butchered that, which won the Un Certain Regards Jury Prize at the 2017 Cannes Film Festival. And recently on Danis Goulet’s Night Raiders, which premiered at the 2021 Berlin Alley. Currently, he’s teaming up again with Christian Sparkes for the film, Sweetland. Thanks for joining us.

Next up, we have Michelle Szemberg, CCE. After graduating from the film program at York University, Michelle worked for many years as an assistant editor. This allowed her to be mentored and collaborate with some of the leading forces in Canadian cinema. Her selected film and TV credits include Natasha, Below Her Mouth, Between, Un traductor, which prepared at the 2018 Sundance Film Festival, and Northern Rescue. Her latest film is the DGC award-winning All My Puny Sorrows, which has premiered at TIFF 2021.

Next we have Arthur Tarnowski, ACE. Arthur is a prolific editor whose work ranges from auteur cinema to popular comedies with a pension for action films. His feature credits span many genres and include Drunken birds, Bestsellers, The Decline, The Hummingbird Project, the Follow the American Empire, the Trotsky, Brick Mansions, Deadfall, Whitewash, and Compulsive Liar. His television work includes 19-2, Bad Blood, Being Human, Mohawk Girls, The Moodys and Mirage. He has also created over 150 film trailers, including some of the biggest box office hits in his native Quebec. Welcome, Arthur.

And last we have Rich Williamson. Rich Williamson is an Oscar shortlisted filmmaker based in Toronto. His work blends the best of fiction and documentary technique together with a focus on social issue subjects. Scarborough is his first dramatic feature with partner and co-director Shasha Nakhai. It made its world premier at the 2021 Toronto International Film Festival where it won the Shawn Mendes Foundation Changemaker Award, was first runner up for People’s Choice, and received an honorable mention for Best Canadian feature. Welcome, Rich.

All right, thanks everyone. Yeah, I mean, based on those bios, you could tell we have some real heavy hitters with us here, which is very exciting. But mostly we’re here to talk about these four films that came out this year. And yeah, just going to start with how did each of you get involved with your project? So starting with you Arthur, how did you come aboard Drunken Birds?

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Well, Ivan Grbovic, the director, was going to edit the film himself. The producers told him maybe he should get an editor. So that’s how that came about. I’d worked with the producers, Kim and Luc, on a movie called The Whitewash a few years ago, and they asked me to look at the film. The film was a really good first cut, but basically there was some issues. And so they wanted feedback of maybe a more experienced editor, and it’s kind of a first. It’s his second feature, he does mostly commercials, so it’s a format that’s a little tougher to manage. So basically, we had a few conversations. I looked at his cut and we talked about it, and we sort of clicked. We’re sort of two Anglo Montrealers, so we were very simpatico and that’s how we came about. And I was in the midst of editing another film, so I had to wait. I had to make them wait a little bit.

But then the pandemic happened, and all of a sudden everyone had free time. So that’s when I started working on the film in March of 2020 and went on for a few months from then. And that’s how that came to be. And I’m very grateful that actually the pandemic happened so I had time to squeeze in the two films at the same time. And I’m very glad because it’s probably one of the films I’m most proud of.

Simone Smith, CCE:

That’s great. Yeah, I also want to mention that it is Canada’s selection for the Oscars, so.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

That’s right.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Congratulations.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Thank you.

Simone Smith, CCE:

That’s a wonderful achievement.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Yeah, it’s very exciting.

Rich Williamson:

We’ve known Catherine, the writer for I think probably about 12 years. We first came across her at the Fringe Festival in Toronto, and she was performing a play called The Shotgun Wedding. And I remember Shasha and I both looking at each other and being like, “Wow, this person’s going to be famous. She’s so, so good.” Never thinking we were going to work with her, but for some reason we were just sort of, there was a gravitational pull. And as we got along in our careers, we crossed paths again. She would be in certain things that we were doing. She was in Shasha’s thesis project in university. Later on, the Real Asian Film Festival commissioned a project called Paruparo, which was a pairing between a filmmaker and a dancer. And it was about a Filipino nanny, and Katherine was the dancer in it. And it was only a two-day project, but she really, really got a great vibe from it.

She really enjoyed the way we work. She liked how we- We’re documentary filmmakers, so we have- our mind is on how to approach a community, how to be not too invasive with our filmmaking style. She really liked that. And we had such a good experience working on it that it’s one of those things sometimes you go, “Oh, well, we’ll work again in the future.” And years went by and we didn’t really talk to each other, we just went our separate ways. And Shasha and I were working on a project in Nigeria, and we came back for the Christmas holidays. And we had mail kind of piled up. And one of the things in the mail was the book Scarborough. And when we opened the first page, there was a little inscription that said, “I’ve had two other people want to make this into a film, but I love the way you guys work, and if you want to do it, I would love you guys to do it.”

So we were a bit reluctant. It was something that we weren’t really accustomed to. I’ve done a bit of fiction, but nothing on this scale and certainly nothing with this many actors and this many locations. And so it was a courting process where we kind of had lunches with her and just went, “Are you sure about this? Because I don’t think we’re really cut out for this.” And she was like, “No, no, I want you guys to do it.” So eventually we said yes, and yeah, just went from there and we just sort of took one step forward.

Simone Smith, CCE:

And then for All My Puny Sorrows, we had both Michelle and Orlee. So how did that come to be?

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

Yes, I’ll take this one because I was the first person contacted about it. Michael McGowan and I worked together for about 20 years. So he reached out in the fall. I had made a plan because I had a baby, and I’m teaching at work as well. And I sort of had this plan where I was like, “I’m going to wait, not work.” I took a little contract at York, I do that. And he is like, “How about I throw a wrench in your plans?” And he asked me what I was doing and he said, “We’re going to camera pretty much next month. Would you be interested in doing it?” And because I had already taken on certain commitments, I said, “Well, how would you feel if I bought Orlee on to co-edit? Because I was sort of coming out of maternity leave, and Orlee and I have had this relationship since 2012.

She was my assistant for many years. And then we co-edited The Morning Calm together. And it was such a great experience, I thought this would be a great opportunity to do it again. And I gave Orlee a call and asked if she was interested in doing it with me. And the rest is history. It’s kind of like they got green lit really fast. I mean, it was also COVID, so that was also a reason why I wasn’t sort of taking the work because I had no idea if daycares were going to shut down, if things were going to. And so I didn’t want to commit to something that I couldn’t do. And so having Orlee on was so that I wouldn’t let anyone down if something happened in the middle of this pandemic. And it was an amazing experience.

Simone Smith, CCE:

That’s great. Yeah. That’s nice having someone you’re that close with, and you have that trust that it’s in good hands.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

Yeah, I don’t think it’s something that you can do with everybody, but Orlee and I have sort of a shorthand that has been built up every year. So I don’t know if you want to add to it.

Orlee Buium:

I was just going to say that I also had a little bit of a relationship with Mike from being a first assistant on two seasons of his TV show Between. So overall we all already had a dynamic going into it, which definitely made it an easier process with three of us in that respect.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Great. And Jorge, how did you come aboard Night Raiders?

Jorge Weisz:

First, I was contacted by Tara Woodbury, the producer who I’ve known for many, many years, going back to the Canadian Film Center. And she sent me the script, and she said that she really wanted to work with me. And I read it, and I really loved it. And then the next step was to have a conversation with Danis Goulet, the director and writer. And it was then when I fell in love with the project, it was just hearing her vision and her intentions, her honesty and her passion towards the material, just sold it. And also I realized we had a very similar approach to where we wanted to go with the material. So it felt very natural. And yeah, that’s basically it.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Cool. So going in order of the process, beginning with dailies, what is everyone’s approach to dailies and was it any different for this project? Why don’t you kick us off Michelle and Orlee?

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

Oh, okay. Well, we probably had a very different approach co-editing. So we were working remotely. Orlee was at her house. I was at my house, our assistant was at her house. And we kind of did gorilla style shared storage over Dropbox. We each had our own drives, but we shared our projects. And every day we would get the dailies. And Orlee and I would look at what was shot, and we would randomly pick scenes sometimes in the beginning and split it off. And she would assemble at her house, I would assemble, and then we would usually jump on Zoom and look at each other’s scenes and give each other some feedback. Do you want to continue Orlee?

Orlee Buium:

I feel like that’s the gist of the process.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

But I mean then once we were sort of stringing together the stuff, she would come over. And we’d watch together, and we worked. It’s kind of sync. There was some synchronicity of watching each other’s stuff, giving feedback. It was nice because there was a lot of fresh eyes. So it was always like I could see things in her cuts that she couldn’t see in her own. When you’re assembling, you kind of get stuck in your own world. So it was nice to have someone to feed off. But I guess, I mean, I don’t know if your question is how we approach our own assemblies or how we did it for this film.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah, I mean, what’s your usual? I mean, everyone’s different. Some people will watch everything. And then start to noodle or take notes or markers, or.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

For me, I find that if I think too much while I’m assembling, I get stuck. So I really try to… I mean, I know some people do their first assembly and make it as tight as possible, but I feel like my process that works the best is that I emotionally react to performances. I watch everything. I emotionally react. And I try to cut faster with my intuition than with my thoughts because if I start thinking too much, I get stuck. And then I will tighten up. I usually do a second pass of my assembly, but I find if I stick to my sort of intuitive first impression of things, I’m actually quite surprised how it falls into place. When I overthink is when I get frustrated and stuck. So that’s like I used to try to get it perfect when I started out on my first pass. And now I find that I really try to lay it down in a way that’s sort of more emotional and without as much thought. And then I think afterwards sometimes.

Orlee Buium:

I definitely have a bit of a different approach. I like to watch all of the footage usually behind me in my chair with a wireless keyboard. And I’ll just kind of drop markers whenever I see a performance that I emote to. And I usually find that watching all the footage consistently makes it so that when I get to the point where I’m ready to start cutting the scene, I really have a solid understanding of what the shape of the scene is. And Michelle didn’t mention that we also use Script Sync for this project. So I am very loyal to Script Sync. I’ll really just go from the beginning and choose performances per line and really just throw a messy assembly down, and then I’ll do a second pass, where I kind of make it more into a scene using those performances.

And then on my third pass of it, is when I’ll really go and make sure I’m feeling. I?m really just in dropping markers on the timeline even when I’m doing that watch, I’ll just be sitting there, “Oh, I had a thought about something, I want to adjust there.” And then I’ll go and I’ll look through the markers and be like, “Oh, what was that thought I had?” But I always find that, that first time that I watch it through, once it’s kind of within the shape that I want it to be is when I can feel what’s going on the most. So I am never soft about when I choose to do that. I’ll never do it too early, I think because I really value that moment.

Simone Smith, CCE:

You only get one first impression, right?

Orlee Buium:

Totally.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah. And yeah, not enough praise for Script Sync, oh my God, what a game changer. For those that are not familiar or cutting it in different software, it lets you see the entire script, like a line script. And you can double click the line and see every take, every read of that line. It’s changed totally how I work. So yeah, not enough can be said for Script’s Sync. Lifesaver. Rich, what was your approach to the footage? I mean, being more doc style, I’m sure quite different.

Rich Williamson:

Yeah, it is a little bit different. And I think the hope was that we would have an editor. That I wasn’t going to have to edit it. In fact, we were hoping to have Simone edit it, Simone Smith.

But because of our budget, telephone, the whole thing, we got halfway through the film and it was like, “Oh my gosh, okay, everyone who can do double duty is going to have to do double duty. I’m unfortunately going to have to direct and shoot, also edit.” And it just became a necessity. So all of the things that we were hoping, like dailies, just didn’t happen. We were shooting the film and at the end of the day, you’re so exhausted that I’d like to be able to watch things at the end of the day and see what we got. But it was just this constant process of having to go back and shoot the next day. And we just didn’t have time. And so it just piled up. And I just hoped for the best, just hoped that things were turning out okay and just tried not to look back.

And I think around 15th or 16th day, we ended up shooting 38 days. The 15th or 16th day Shasha, my partner and I started watching. We just throw it on in the background. So we were totally exhausted. And we just hook up the camera to the TV, and we’d be doing whatever we needed to do to get ready for the next day. And it would just sort of be in the background. And we watched what’s happening. And so it was a comforting sort of thing of, oh, okay, things are going okay. It’s not too bad.

But it was a very unconventional process. And we shot in blocks with the hope that… Because it takes place over seasons, the hope was that in the off time, we’d be able to edit or look at the rushes. But because we were always planning and we’d have to cast more people for each new block and find locations, it was all the time was devoted to just casting locations and whatever else came up. And so really, I didn’t get around to editing it until COVID time when we shut down. And that was the time that was allotted. So it was good. It was kind of good. I mean, obviously it’s been terrible, but there was a silver lining to COVID.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah, it’s net negative, but there was some silver lining. Right?

Rich Williamson:

Right, exactly. Yeah.

Simone Smith, CCE:

And Arthur, how do you approach your material?

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

For this project, it was particular because the director had cut a version of the film, which by the way was quite good. If you’ve seen the film, there’s a lot of long takes. And so obviously those things I wasn’t going to mess with. But once I did take over the project, I did just go back to all the dailies. The film was shot on film, so there was a lot of material, but it was not like the crazy amounts we’re used to now, which helped. And they shot it a lot like Terrence Malick. They would rehearse all day and then at magic hour for two hours, they would shoot their whole day in those two hours. So it was very precise and very specific what they shot. But generally, what I like to do like most everybody else is look at the daily.

I like to look at the first time I see the dailies not in the cutting room. So it could be home or on my laptop or just to get a first impression of the material. And then once I get into the room, then I’ll start marking stuff and making selects and things like that. But I often find that it’s a good way to just get a sense of the film. You’ve read the script, you’ve got a sense of where things will be going. The other thing I kind of go back to a lot is what I call a dailies roll. And it’s like every day is one long sequence of all the material shot in that day. And I’ll just occasionally go back and scroll through that. Kind of the golden age of editing on actual film, you’d look for a shot that you’d have to roll through.

And I find doing that once in a while with your material, something will pop up that for one scene was not meant to be, but all of a sudden makes sense to use there. So I find it’s a way to keep the material alive in your head, even though you’ve gone through a scene and you’ve finished it, but there might be a little nugget leftover somewhere that you hadn’t thought about. So that’s something I tend to do on all the projects. And obviously on a film that I took over, I went back and looked at all the dailies and all that. But Ivan is also a very specific person. Those master shots that last several minutes, those were really thought out. And I mean, other than a few exceptions, those were pretty much the ones he had laid out in the beginning. So I didn’t have to worry about those too much. More the specific, more edited scenes, I guess.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Right.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

And the structure for it. And by the way, I forgot to mention, but I really enjoyed all of your films, just really. And Rich, I feel so inadequate because I never shot a film I edited. I never co-directed. I’m like, wow. And you say that it was a chore, but it looks like a film that was edited by someone who’s edited many, many films before. So congratulations.

Rich Williamson:

Thank you very much.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Yeah.

Rich Williamson:

You could do it by the way. You could shoot. You could definitely.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Yeah, yeah. No, no.

Rich Williamson:

For sure, yeah.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah, that’s really interesting about keeping those daily reels. Because I know sometimes there’ll be bins you just haven’t opened for months because you just haven’t opened that scene. And you’re looking for a different line and you’re like, “Oh, I completely forgot this shot was there.” Yeah, that’s really interesting.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Exactly.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah. Jorge, how do you approach your footage, your material?

Jorge Weisz:

I have a bit of a different approach. Basically it’s been because of the projects that I’ve been doing, there have been more a lower budget. So out of necessity, we don’t have that many shooting days. So I need to very, very quickly assess what I have from the day and put it together as quickly as possible to make sure I don’t have to contact the set to tell them that I’m missing something. So I will basically get the first scene and put it together, even though I’ll be obviously going back and reediting and so on, but at least I can do a markup and just make sure the scene works. And then review if there are other performance that might be better. But at least I know that we are covered. And once we know we’re covered, I’ll move to the next one. And I’ll do everything like that for the whole day. And once I know we’re safe, then I can go back and revisit more takes and start polishing and looking for specific moments and shaping and so on, and reviewing more carefully the material.

But my first pass, the fast and dirty, will be just to make sure they don’t have to do any reshooting the next day. If we have the same location for which, I mean, even if we do, sometimes you do the call, and they don’t have the time or there’s no window opportunity to even do that, but…

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

They never have the time.

Jorge Weisz:

No. But at least I have to take the chance and say like, “Hey, I told you. You were informed.” So at least it’s not, ?why you didn’t say, we were there with the actors.? So at least I do that, and it has worked very well. And in a sense I make these little markups of the scene. And then I can really take my time later without the pressure of set to really go through each take, and review the material carefully. But having already had my little scene already semi-assemble is also very helpful for it because I now understand what the scene is about, where we need to go, where we need to get, sorry. Yeah, and that’s just how I started working in shorts. So that’s the only way I know how to do it, and it’s working well for me.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

Can I add something that was interesting about our assembly? Because we had worked with Mike for so long, I find when you work with new directors or people that you don’t sort of have a relationship with, you kind of stick to the script for your assembly in general. Whereas Mike said to us, “If you stick to the script, I’ll be really upset.”

So it was kind of like a great experience because he really actually kind of put pressure on us to do something different and be creative in the assembly and take chances even if he didn’t like it or whatever, there was a relationship there that we didn’t feel insecure to try things that were different, whether it be structure or intercutting or things that weren’t script based. So that was kind of a cool experience to be able to do that in our first pass and then present it to him so he could be surprised because he wanted to see what we would come up, whether he kept it or not, it didn’t really matter. But you know, you don’t really always get that experience working with directors that you don’t have that kind of relationship with. So that was kind of cool.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah, that must be very liberating.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

Yeah.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah.

Orlee Buium:

We should clarify though, that it was our second pass. We kind of assembled it based in script order, watched it, and then we’re like, “Okay, here’s a bunch of things that we already know we want to work on before.” And that’s kind of when we started shuffling a little bit and experiment a little bit more, intercutting. So by the time Mike came into the room with us, sorry, we were already a good two weeks into playing around, I’d say.

Simone Smith, CCE:

But you were doing this all, I’m sorry, go ahead.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

He gave us a little longer with our assembly just so that we could sort of try things and be creative and our first pass was two hours and 20 something minutes and we cut a lot at that assembly.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah. So I’m assuming most if not all of these films were cut during COVID. I’m not sure about Night Raiders if you guys locked before or…

Jorge Weisz:

Yeah, we locked when we were about to go into lockdown. So basically the whole film was done before that, but we had a lot of visual effects and obviously its sound and so on. So picture locked early on into the pandemic, which was great for going to the next stage. But it’s terrible for me because nobody was producing anything. So I was without work for a long time. But it was pretty neat because we were a co-production with New Zealand and by the time we were ready to start sound design and visual effects, New Zealand was kind of coming out of their lockdown. So all the post houses were kind of open and ready to receive our material. So the timing in that regard was perfect.

Simone Smith, CCE:

That’s good. Were you tuning into virtual sessions at weird hours with the time difference or…

Jorge Weisz:

Yeah. Yeah. We had a few. It was just- even before that, even while we were editing that we were just sending notes. So I will send an email and I knew that will receive a response the next day.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Right.

Jorge Weisz:

And it was just like, yeah, very strange.

Simone Smith, CCE:

And then in terms of the edit, was it standard you and Dannis in a room or was it more she’d leave you with notes that you would apply and come back to or?

Jorge Weisz:

No. No. She likes to stay in the room every day. Sometimes it will be, we will just discuss a lot and I’ll make some notes and she’ll leave early. But for the most of the time, yeah, she was in the room with me and sometimes she’ll go into the corner and into her laptop and let me do my thing and reconvene once the scene was fixed. But I kind of like to do that. I like to have the director next to me so we can ping pong and just have that collaboration very alive and conversation constantly. And it’s like a laboratory, right. So I like that. Yeah.

Simone Smith, CCE:

And Arthur for Drunken Birds, were you doing virtual sessions? Were you in the room?

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Yeah, we were basically, because I did sort of, while this was pre COVID, I did sort of a one week pass of restructuring just to give them an idea of my thoughts on what we should do and that included putting slugs of scenes I think should be in the film that haven’t been shot. And that was in January while I was finishing the other film. So then they thought about that. Then when March came around, I was finishing the other film, the pandemic hit then was like they were actually supposed to go to China to shoot a sequence, which ended up being shot the first thing shot in Montreal in COVID time, which was surreal. I don’t know if you remember the scene in the Chinese sort of the painting. So that’s five extras and about six cuts in that shot.

So it’s quite a coup of mise en scene because they basically, with COVID restrictions and all that, they can only have five actors on set and they want to create this huge thing. Anyway, so we definitely had stuff that came in after, but most of it was edited from March until July and we unlocked about five times. I have a very intense director who likes to tweak till the umpteenth hour.

We actually were supposed to be at TIF 2020, but everyone was like, “We’re going to rush crazy people for festival that’s going to be half there.” So everyone decided let’s just take a break and we’ll submit it next year and let’s just make the best film possible. So we ended up working, I would say almost till October, November on and off of course. But basically, yeah, so it was, and actually again, pandemic net crap but overall good because I’ve been meaning to get an avid at my house, but I just hadn’t gone into the whole process of getting one. And then the director had an avid, so he just gave me his avid. I worked from home, we were working on FaceTime, if you can believe it. I had my phone out and he had all the dailies at home, so he knew the film inside out. So quality of picture and sound was not a big issue for him. So we basically worked day in, day out with the FaceTime on. Then we realized we could have done it on Zoom the whole time, but that’s a whole other story.

So that’s pretty much how we worked. We didn’t actually sit in the same room until we did tweaks, I guess in the third wave in October or something like that, where actually the avid went back to his place and by then I got my own avid. And so we were working at his place over a couple of weekends. So the first time we’re actually in the same room together. And as much as Zoom is great and everything, there’s something about physically being in the room where you can gauge a reaction and you could really sort of feel what everyone’s really feeling and not sort of through a screen or whatever. But yeah, so that’s how we worked it out.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah, it’s just not the same as being able to pop off for a hour long lunch together.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Exactly.

Simone Smith, CCE:

And all those things that come with working in person.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Simone Smith, CCE:

And for All My Puny Sorrows. So you were working over Dropbox yourselves, but once it came to director sessions, how did you manage that?

Orlee Buium:

We did a bit of a hybrid edit. So Mike doesn’t live in Toronto, so he was pretty happy to not have to come in all the time and have the option of doing a little bit of time over Zoom. So we were doing three days a week in person at Michelle’s house with masks on and air circulation, windows open everything. And then on, well Thursdays, Michelle was teaching at York, so it was kind of just me hanging out in the edit room with whatever miscellaneous things they’d kind of left on the to-do list for the week. And then I’d send out Dropbox links to Mike and Michelle to kind of get their feedback on it. And then Friday we were working over Zoom as well, but none of those days were very long because I don’t know if any of us had worked up a tolerance for long zoom days at that point, but it was kind of cool ’cause we would, Michelle and I would just kind of pop on and off screen sharing each of our computers, which definitely helped with some of the Zoom fatigue.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

And in person it was kind of similar because we would be working through the film and the director’s cut and it sort of happened that Orlee cut most of the first half of the film and I cut most the second half of the film. I mean not everything. So she’d be in the driver’s seat, I’d be on the couch behind with Mike, and then when one of my scenes would come up, we’d sort of switch our settings and take over. So we were both driving the avid and both sitting behind. So it was kind of interesting as an editor to sit in the director’s chair as well and watching the cutting process from behind. You see it in a really different way and you’re able to give notes in a different way than when you’re actually sort of driving the avid and actually doing the work. So that was a really interesting experience, I think.

Orlee Buium:

I think it was especially interesting when we’d get a little bit stuck in what to do with the scene and we’d switch off on the chair and then as soon as the other person was on, we were like, “Oh my God, it’s so clear from back here.” You really get caught up in the minutiae sometimes when you’re driving.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

And I think Mike at first wasn’t sure how it would work with two editors, but I think after we found our group he was really into the process because there was, when there was a disagreement on something and be like, “Okay, what do you think?” And there was a third person to, or there was someone to bounce other ideas off of, or if we weren’t sure about something, it’s like, “Well, what do you think?” And so there was an interesting dynamic having three people in the room. Again, I don’t know if it would work for everybody, but for us it worked really well.

Jorge Weisz:

Did you end up switching, you go to the beginning and Orlee going to the end, or it was just stuck to your half?

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

No, we did, I think there were certain points where Orlee would come and cut some of my scenes and I would at a certain point Orlee would be like, “Why don’t you try…?” There were certain scenes that there were some scenes that we had to work on a lot more than others. And then there was the time when my son broke his wrist and I had to go to the hospital and Orlee and Mike, they cut some of my stuff and I came back and with a nice reaction to what they had done. But it was, it was great because then we found the place after where I had left the room and they were able to chop something apart that I might have fought for and it sort of took us in a new direction. So that was a fun experience as well.

Simone Smith, CCE:

That’s great as well.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

I’m currently working with two co-directors and we’re three in the room and my power level has increased tremendously because I end up splitting the difference. Anyway, sorry, go on.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

Yeah, I’ve done, I’ve done co-directors before too, so I know that that dynamic,

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah, majority rules, right? Two against one. And Rich for yourself. I mean, you’re cutting at home, your co-director is also your life partner, so not that different in COVID guessing it’s more or less the same process it would’ve been otherwise.

Rich Williamson:

It’s pretty much the same as it would usually be generally with editing by myself. And I think what Sasha usually prefers is that I get kind of a rough cut and then show it to her, and then we talk about what needs to be done. And so she just lets me go for however long and is usually like, “How long is this thing going to take?” But she’s patient and that once we get to that point where it’s kind of in a rough cut space, then we sort of talk about where we want to go from it- from there. And then ultimately trying to get friends and colleagues to get involved and provide their input too. And you and our other three editing friends from the COCC who were part of that as well.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah. So before we get into clips, I find with most projects there’s usually kind of the one major thing you overcome where whether it’s characters not coming across the way you want, it’s hard to get the run time down. So what was your one major hill to climb on each of your projects, starting with you, Jorge?

Jorge Weisz:

Well, there were a few but one, there were the visual effects. The visual effects in the Raiders are interesting because they’re subtle. We didn’t want to make a movie that it was packed with them. And so it was just something that it was in the background, but they still have an important role in the film and some of them are, the characters interact with them. So it was very important to just create something that will help the edit and it will form how to pace it with  invisible things. So Craig Scorgie, my assistant, was a lifesaver in that regard. He basically saved the day, big time. He’s very strong with the VFX, and he really created this kind of shapes and elements that will just be a placeholder but will be alive. So we were able to sense how the scene will really, really feel. And it’s incredible.

Once I saw the effects later, the real thing, it has almost the same movement as the little shapes that Craig created. And for the long time there was a title card, drones doing these things and things flying, and it was just like the pacing was off and it was just confusing. And we didn’t know if it should be shorter, it should be longer. And it was very tricky just to understand how to find that sweet spot. And it wasn’t until Craig created this thing that it was just, “Okay, now we know what to do and how to do it.” So I was like, “Ah, yes.” that was our biggest one for sure.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

Yeah. And were you able to go back in and tweak once the VFX was in and sort of adjust?

Jorge Weisz:

Yeah, but it was just very little. It was just like we created a every shot with handles. So there were always if needed to be a little bit longer or shorter, but not much. And I think it was because of the work we did before that, it was extremely helpful just to really get it very, very close to the final product.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Michelle and Orlee, what was a major challenge in All My Puny Sorrows?

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

We each want to answer this or you want me to go first, Orlee?

Orlee Buium:

Of course. Yeah. What are you going to say?

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

I’m trying to think. I think we had some challenges with starting a lot of the restructuring. And we did some re-shoots of the flashbacks of the little girls. So I think the flashbacks were a little bit of a challenge and how to pace them out and where to put them in the film. And also we restructured a lot of the scenes to build the emotional, I hate using the word arc, but the arc of the characters. And there’s a lot of, we played a lot with push and pull of emotions in the film. So I think pacing and tension and structure were something we were constantly working on and also cutting down time. As I said, our assembly was quite long.

Orlee Buium:

Well, I think especially because it’s such a dialogue heavy film, really finding that ebb and flow of tension was important because we wanted to make sure that people were continuously engaging with the dialogue. And I think definitely after the amount of times that we saw it, and we only saw it I think one time with an audience. So really not having that intuitive feeling outside of the edit room I think was a challenge. And it was kind of incredible seeing edits hit because seeing it with a full theater and the amount of that people laughed in the theater that looking back on the edit suite, I was like, “Oh, I didn’t know that was going to be a funny thing.” And I think sometimes when you have test screenings earlier on, you maybe have a little few more hints and can build around that.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

It’s true, making sure we really were, because the dialogue is so long, we played with the pacing of it to make sure it was moving, and we did a lot of intercutting and flashbacks and all of that stuff. But it’s true that the levity and the humor, I think we knew some things were working, but when we did see it in an audience, there was so much laughter. And for such a sort of sad film, the levity was, it really helped balance the emotion of the- in the film.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah, for sure. And yeah, it would be hard to judge that without an audience and finding that balance, which you’ve done a wonderful job where it’s just, it’s never too down or bringing you down too much, even though it is such a heavy subject matter. So kudos.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

I think it’s interesting and with COVID not having a test screening is a new experience. I think we didn’t screen it for more than five people or six people in a room at a time. And then that was only a few times. And usually you’ll have a bigger sort of test screening for the edit.

Orlee Buium:

And I think some of the kudos definitely goes to the script, right? We didn’t necessarily always know what we were cutting in terms of the levity, but it was on the page. I’m like, “Yeah, it’s Mike.”

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

And I think it was in the book as well. So I think Mike really tried to capture the essence of the book.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Arthur, what was a major challenge?

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Well, there was a couple of things. Like I said, the film is such a visual feast that when we leave those visual moments and we’re more in the intimacy of a dialogue scene, that’s where it can be a challenge because it sort of feels like it’s a different movie almost. So actually I won’t talk about it too much now because it’s the clip I chose for that exact reason. But one of the characters, for example, the matriarch of the family on the farm was seen as someone who was aloof and running to find the next Mexican conquest. And there was not a lot of empathy for that character. So it was a question of finding the right structure, putting the scenes in the right order so that your perception of that character was not this sort of, she’s just hitting on these poorer migrant Mexican workers to get away from her husband that she’s not in love with anymore.

And that was really not what the director and the co-writer cinematographer wanted. So it was to find the balance that instead of the first time we see her, she’s lying in a forest trying to learn Spanish. The first time we see her, she’s working. Just the way you introduce a character makes your perception of who they are, so much different. So that was a bit of a challenge. And the middle part of the film had a weight to it that the front and the end of it was sort of working on all cylinders. So we had to find a way to pick the moments that were going to stay and those that weren’t. And also, so it’s a multiple character story, so having all that work with each other instead of against each other. So that was, I would say the biggest challenge was to keep all of the twirling plates going at the same time in the right order.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Great. And Rich, what was a major challenge in the edit?

Rich Williamson:

Well, to Arthur’s point, I think the balancing so many characters, Catherine’s book is such a mosaic of different characters, and that’s the whole kind of point. It’s just this sort of interweaving, not a traditional plot. People just sort of bouncing off each other. And so during the edit it was definitely a challenge trying to figure out how to give everybody the space that was needed. So setting them up, making sure that they’re a fleshed out character, that you know what’s up with them, what they’re going on in their head and what their goals are, and then getting the audience attached to that enough that they want to go along with it. And also to shift into another character and still be okay with that. So that was always a challenge, and particularly when you talk about things like run time, it becomes difficult because then you start to realize you can’t really put it in a box.

You can’t say, “Okay. I’d love the film to be, I love films that are an hour and a half. I love some films that are two hours, some are 2:30, some are three hours,” everything belongs in a different box. With this film, it just felt like with that many characters happening, it’s impossible to put it in a small package. You kind of have to give everybody their time. And we really wanted to just focus on moments and just allow people to give looks and for expressions and just faces to say things as opposed to just informing the cut all the time. So I think that was the biggest difficulty, just the balance. And Catherine was great because she wrote the book and she wrote the screenplay, and so she actually did a lot of the work ahead of time, so she was able to cut out characters that she felt were unnecessary.

And sometimes it was actually quite surprising. There were some characters where I was like, “Wow, that I didn’t expect that to go.” But then you look at it and you’re like, “Actually that works a lot better.” And if you compare the book with the film much, the film is much more focused on the three kids. And it felt like with the film you have to keep it moving, you have to, there’s still a pace that people are expecting and there’s certain sort of, yeah, there’s just certain expectations with a film that you don’t have with a book, a book, some more kind of, you can just sit with it, be in someone’s mind for a bit. So yeah, they were just different and sort of recognizing that. Yeah.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Right. All right. It’s time to watch some clips. So we’re going to start with All My Puny Sorrows. Did you want to set up the clip for us?

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

[inaudible 00:51:40] ? orlee

Orlee Buium:

Okay. So in this scene, I guess there’s only one piece of information that we would love the audience to know, which is that the two characters in the car just had really awkward sex.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Great. Let’s play the clip

 

[clip plays]

Simone Smith, CCE:

All right, thank you so much. Do you want to talk about how the scene came together?

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

Yeah, I can take this. Since this was a mammoth scene that was intercut, I think the assembly of the whole scene was started in the car. The car is longer. It was about 17 or 18 minutes to the end of that hospital scene. The clip only covers part of it. But it was a really interesting experience, cutting such a long scene. It was exhausting to assemble it. It was never ending. It was so performance based, that you really just had to watch the footage. But the way they shot it was really interesting, because they shot the same slates, but with slightly different angles. There was a lot of movement. They covered the whole scene. They didn’t break it down that much. But this is an example of inter cutting, as well as this push and pull tension that we were working on. These sort of like- building up, building up, and then releases. There was a lot of that in this film with either humor, or anger, sadness, all these emotions and this build, this build. And then, this release at the end of this clip when they had the fight. And then, what happened afterwards, the silence.

Yeah, and every time we watched this scene, this scene is the one where, you feel like you’re clenching almost when you’re watching it as it builds. And then, you have this, you take a breath factor with them when they take a breath. And that never changed, the more we watched it and the more we crafted it. And this gets better. I think we’ll use this as an example.

Orlee Buium:

I think the fight was so challenging, because if you think the actors said to the director, we’re going to overlap each other. So there’s a lot of stuff that was, we were just stuck with. But I think aside from a few tweaks in the build of the fight, it’s Michelle’s assembly. She just did such an incredible job with it. And I think every time I watched, I was like, “Oh, this scene.”

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

Oh, we did play a lot with the car. The car was really-

Orlee Buium:

The first part.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

… Yeah. And how we intercut it, and all of that.

Orlee Buium:

I think also not having that audience feedback, we really felt like we wanted the car stuff to be tight. We spent a lot of time being like, “Okay, what else can we take out of this sequence?” And I feel like what’s left is really the meat of what should be there. But one of my favorite moments that came along really late into the edit, was after your structure is amazing, it cuts back to Alf. And she laughs, and then we go back into the scene in the truck. And that wasn’t there for a really long time. And then, as soon as we put it in, it gave this extra amount of levity, that I think we were part of, do we need this, do we not need this? But I think we also laughed every time. So we were like, all right, we’re keeping it.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah, this scene’s a great example of that. You have this incredibly heavy situation going on, but then the bit about the crappy metaphor and all that, it’s so refreshing to have those things interspersed with such drama, but also it doesn’t ever feel forced or it doesn’t belong there. It just, that’s life. It’s the sorrow and the comedy all wrapped into one.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

And we got a good laugh when she said, I have a cleaning lady. Those were the moments. At tiff that got a laugh in the middle of this really heavy fight, that you can have that, was amazing. It just made the film what it was.

Orlee Buium:

And also, a tribute to the two actresses, because I don’t know what, I think it would’ve been, it could have been so hard, but I think they really nailed the performances. So it was exciting to work with that footage.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

Yeah. It’s so nice when you have choice, and you’re not putting around or solving performance issues, but you have choice. Okay, which direction do I want to go? How do I want to, when you have lots of great performance choices and you get to sculpt it, rather than trying to cut around or cover up performance issues, when you’re just blessed with getting great performances, and getting to build it from there.

Simone Smith, CCE:

And how much would you say performance was guiding the edit versus using different takes and shaping the performance in the edit?

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

Again, this is where I don’t overthink things. I think performance guided. What Orlee said, I remember now. It’s all coming back to me, about the overlapping. So there was a bit of out taking, and having to do a lot of… Luckily, I have a lot of experience with sound, so a lot of creative dialogue editing to make sure that I could keep the performances I wanted. I think Orlee and I both have a lot of sound experience, so we did that throughout the film, which is something that I always try to do to save what I want to use. Overlapping is all editors.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

Yeah. But you can’t, in those emotional scenes, you can’t control that. They take it where it’s going to go, and then you have to craft around it. So I definitely think performance led the edit, especially in the fight. I think we led the edit with cutting, and stuff like that. But yeah.

Orlee Buium:

Well, and definitely some of the less emotional in that way scenes. We had so many options with, between performance and issues. Like the other hospital scene, where it’s really just two statics of the two girls. Earlier in the movie, we could entirely craft the performance there and the pacing of the scene, a very different way than this scene.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Overall, the film just has a real precision to it. Everything feels razor sharp to the correct frame length. How was that process, and how did you get there?

Orlee Buium:

It just happened.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah.

Orlee Buium:

I think one of the things that I think Michelle brought up a lot, was transitions. And I think there’s a lot of harsh transitions, where you’re cutting into the middle of scenes. And it’s like, it’s not what we’re used to. So I think there was a little bit of a bump with intuition, but I think as we got deeper into the edit, at least Michelle, I think I always was like, “I don’t think it’s as big a deal as you knew.” But I think when we were deeper into the edit, it became really clear that that was just the language of the film. And it was so consistent throughout, where you’re just thrown in and out of situations. And I don’t know, the film made itself work.

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

It took me a while, because I was trying to pace out, in the beginning. I wanted slower transitions. I wanted moments to process what happened in the scene before. And Mike and I would talk about it. And Mike had a vision on wanting a certain pace for it. And after a while when I was watching the film as a whole, and I saw how consistent it was to do this throughout, and then how it built through the film. I really jumped on board with it. It was definitely different than a traditional pacing, that maybe we’re more used to. But it became the film.

Orlee Buium:

Something else I will say on that though, is that we found it really hard to judge edits when just watching the scene in isolation. So often, we were like, “We can’t know if this is working until we watched the cut from the beginning,” or we have to go five scenes earlier and reinvest the emotion. And actually, during EditCon last year, I remember the editor from Normal People said he had a experience like that. And that was reinforcing for me, for letting it be okay that that was our experience. But I think all three of us, we just would watch the scene and be like, “Let’s, next, next, pass. We’ll see if this works.”

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

Yeah. It’s interesting, because I don’t think any of us had felt that way before, but it was really hard to evaluate. Because like I said, some scenes were so interconnected and they built from previous stuff, so you really had to watch long chunks of the film to really know if something was working.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Great. Yeah. All right. So we’re going to move on to our next clip from Night Readers. Jorge, do you want to set up the clip?

Jorge Weisz:

Yes. I love this clip. It comes early in the movie, but it’s a very important moment where, basically, it’s a turning point in the film, where the character is going to be cornered yet again into making a very, very difficult decision. So this is a set up.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Great. Let’s take a look.

 

[clip plays]

Simone Smith, CCE:

Okay. Jorge, do you want to tell us about how this scene came together?

Jorge Weisz:

Yeah. Well, I really love this scene, because it has Amanda Plummer, and she’s just an incredible actress, and very, very rich material she gave us to work with, and at the same time, very different. So there was a lot of possibilities, very many directions where this thing could have gone. And it’s interesting just by revisiting the footage, how we end up using really a little bit of everything. But what I love about this scene is just like, it’s very, very tense, but very, very intimate. And that’s basically why I chose it to show it to you, because it was an important point in the story. But just to show that even in the moments that these characters are living is really important, just to maintain this intimacy and this closeness and the importance of connection and the pressure in a very, I don’t know, very, very intimate way.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, just going back to Amanda Plummer’s performance, she makes some really odd choices that work, that I would’ve never thought, just a very unique performer, which is really interesting to see.

Jorge Weisz:

The scene, okay, it can go in so many different ways, but I think understanding what the scene is about and just really creating this kind of Frankenstein of the performance. Just say we were shaping it into something that became, in my taste, very, very powerful as a character. Just say what she faces here

Simone Smith, CCE:

And really at its core of the film is the struggle of a mother who’s trying to do best for her daughter and the cost involved with that. But then you also have this sci-fi element. So how was it balancing those two tones throughout?

Jorge Weisz:

For me, something that really, the reason why I really was attracted to this film was not because of the sci-fi element. The sci-fi element, for me, is just part of the background. And it’s a tool to tell this story, and tell things that we already lived. So it was just a great tool to use to tell this story. But basically, what I love about it is it’s really, it’s the other part, the intimacy part, the community, the love, the importance of family. So it was tricky, because at the end of the day, it is also a sci-fi film. It has all these drones and visual effects. So you don’t want just to throw it out a window, but at the same time, it’s not a Marvel film.

So it was a very, very tricky, it was tricky to navigate. And it was tricky sometimes, even when we were showing the film, test screening. Say that some people wanted to be, they were expecting to see an action film. And it’s not, right? So you balance those things out and keep it true to what Danis wanted to say, what she wanted to, how she wanted to portray this characters and the language I, yeah, I don’t know. Why I was attracted was because of the other reasons, not because of the sci-fi part.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Right. Yeah. And given that it is sci-fi in the a dystopian, not too distant future, there’s a lot of world building involved, but it’s done in a very efficient way. And how did you find that process of telling people just enough to understand this world and the context?

Jorge Weisz:

I mean, I loved it because even if we were having meetings with the BFX team, they were just throwing ideas of how to do this thing and just make it so big. And we were always, especially Danis, was always, okay, no, no, let’s just keep it more, let’s keep it sophisticated. And was she was peeling and make it really to the essential. So that’s just part of the background, and it’s not distracting. Those things are not dictating where the story’s going. And that really helped me, because then I could really focus on the character?s arcs and the performance, and just the journeys of these two women.

Simone Smith, CCE:

So in your test strings, was there a balance of some people being like, “Oh, I’m a little bit confused as to what’s happening here?” Or was it always pretty clear for people?

Jorge Weisz:

Well, a little bit, but it was very interesting because there’s something, the way the movie begins and ends, that came out in the edit, it was not part of the script. And that really helped set the tone. I think just by having a voiceover, that from an elder, so that the movie begins inquiry with a voiceover, narrating a story. I think the whole tone just changes. And then, you understand what the rhythm and maybe what the importance of the story is about. It was challenging, because I remember in test screenings, people wanted to see more of the action, and see more of these fights, and the visual effects. And that was never the movie that we intended to do. So I’m very happy that Dannis was really clear what she wanted to do, how she wanted to do it, how much of that technology she wanted to show. And she was just very clear in where to focus. So yeah, I’m very happy that I had that director. So.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah, it’s definitely something at the wrong hands that could just be so over the top. And it’s just also tastefully done. It’s, yeah, really an achievement.

Jorge Weisz:

Yeah. Thanks. It was, that’s so great, because sometimes you have so many opinions and it’s very easy. I’ve been in so many rooms where when you get this feedback, and that feedback, you are so close to the material, so you start doubting yourself, and maybe start making the wrong decisions, and you want to make something good that people like. So then, all of a sudden, you start shifting to please more, and then you’re taking a different direction. And that can really hurt the whole project. So I was very happy that in here, we were really solid and focused on where we wanted to go. And yeah, some people might have not liked this, because of that, and we were just a bit stubborn. But I’m really, really proud of the direction we took. Yeah.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Great. All right, so next, we’re going to take a look at a clip from Drunken Birds. Arthur, do you want to set it up for us?

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Sure. Well, it goes back to, there was so many different clips I could have picked. There’s this scene in the rain, which lasts 10 minutes, which was a lot of fun to cut. But I would say, because I’m assuming a lot of editors are watching this, and maybe people want to learn about editing. So for me, the clip I chose, it was really, for me, it shows you the power of editing, because, not because of my editing, but just what you can do with the material you’re given. The fact that we had a scene, which is the introductory scene of the farming family, and it was really a scene which had a lot of exposition dialogue, explaining a lot of things, showing us that the child, that the parents are in conflict. And so, the whole idea of the way the scene turned out now, I think we went through about 50 iterations of this scene.

And with the director, we were joking that if we ever gave an editing class, we would just show the 50 versions of this scene, and it would be a big lesson in editing. But basically, for me, the scene shows the power of removing dialogue sometimes, and simplifying things. And the other aspect was having to do with the characters. The Julie character, which is the mother of the family, we had in the original edit of the film, we didn’t really see her working on the farm as much. And so, what I did, is when I put the scene together, the newer version of the scene, I actually went on some stock footage library, and I had someone typing on a calculator, working, to show that this person is not just sitting around there. She’s working all the time, if it’s either on the farm, or in the office, or whatever. So to give more rounding out that character as a fully normal person, who works and who’s tired.

And so, that’s a scene that was, when we did the China shoot, which was supposed to happen in China, which was shot in Montreal. We also did a few scenes that we reshot, and that was one of the- scene in the office. And the other thing I suggested to the directors, would be nice to know the history of that family on that farm, because we mention it, but we never see it.

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:21:04]

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

So they created a whole sequence where we see the photos of the ancestors on the wall, and then we come into a picture of the couple when things were better. So we see the past of this relationship. So all these things show don’t tell, and I find it’s an interesting way of doing it. Obviously, we can’t always re-shoot scenes or shoot new scenes, but that was something that happened from my first screening where I felt I wanted to get to know that family in a different way and maybe in a more deeper way. So I knew it.

Simone Smith, CCE:

All right, let’s take a look. 

 

[clip plays]

Simone Smith, CCE:

All right. So yeah, definitely that photo really struck me as well, because the contrast in how they appear in that photo versus their relationship now, it really does help set them up as a couple.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Exactly. And the idea was to, I mean, it hits, it ticked so many boxes. That little, I don’t know, 50 second scene of the pictures of the ancestors, the office, it shows that she’s working, all these things, and you can tell she’s not happy. But it was all a question of giving a bit of more screen time to that character. And then the actual scene in the kitchen when they’re eating was much longer. It was maybe three pages of dialogue, which are no longer there. The other thing, the neighbor that came by was one of his neighbors. I said, “wouldn’t it be more interesting if it was the Mexican workers?” And when he comes back, we added a new line, where he says, “wow, there’s a lot this year.” And the whole tension of the family is regarding the fact that she had an affair with the worker the previous year.

Everyone knows it, no one’s talking about it. And so at that point in the film, you don’t exactly know that, but you have some inkling. And so the whole idea was that the tension is so intense that they won’t even talk to each other. And so it made the scene much more organic, I think, and it made the scene have a tension to it, whereas if it was filled with dialogue, it didn’t quite do that. So yeah, that’s why I chose that clip, and hopefully it works? Oh and the other thing was the bus at the end was actually from a scene way further in the movie, but I thought right after that scene, we go into this magic realism scene where she remembers her former lover, which we’re not sure at the point it happens that it’s actually not happening. We discover later. That was kind of in her head, but I thought having a moment, a trigger of the bus going by helped that and also made for a nicer cut from the kitchen to her smoking her cigarette. It was a bit of a weird cut. So we were trying to figure that out for the longest time. And then just putting that shot of the bus there sort of helped all that work much better.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Great. Yeah, and you were kind of talking earlier about these long takes and yeah, the film definitely feels more observational. You’re not forcing us to look at things like you really leave the audience up to themselves to what they want to take in from each scene. How much of that was planned beforehand, and how much of that was decided in the edit?

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Well, obviously you have to shoot those if you’re going to have them in your movie, so definitely it was thought out. But I think overall in the film, as the film progresses, we have less of that and then it picks up again when we’re with the young girl in the city, that’s a really long one. But I think, yeah, definitely Ivan is a big fan of the oner, if you could make a oner movie, I think you’d be pleased. But what’s interesting in this film also is that there are a lot of scenes that seem like oners, but they’re not. Just as an example, quickly is the scene where we first meet the couple in the sort of flashback in Mexico when they’re sitting in a car and she’s reading a letter, that scene has about 12 cuts in it. But because they were in dark and sort of shady, we could change takes. We did all kinds of crazy things. But yeah, so it doesn’t look edited, but there’s a lot of it.

Simone Smith, CCE:

And overall, the one line that stuck out was when the one worker says that he has two lives, he has his life when he is on the farm, and then his life back home in Mexico, the daughter has her life at home and then in the city with her friends, the wife with her lover, and then her husband. So there’s all these dualities going on. How did that inform the edit?

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Well, did it actually inform… I never even thought of that aspect that everyone has this, the one thing that did stick out is that everyone is exploited by someone. That was the sort of common thread. I wouldn’t say that that duality was necessarily in the thought process of the editing, but definitely in the structuring of film. And when, for me, editing a scene is obviously super hard and super important to do well. But to me, when you watch a film, the strength of the editing is how you go from one scene to the next. And I think on any film, it’s always the same thing. It’s like, do we go after he walks in, walks out, all these things? It’s always the biggest decisions involved. And I think Michelle mentioned it earlier about transitions going out hard cut or staying in this. So I think that’s more than anything is what on this film dictated as well the ?Where are we going?? We had a lot of non sequiturs in this film where all of a sudden we’re in China, we have no idea why we’re here. By the end of the scene, you’ll kind of know why we’re there, but for most of it, you’re just, “what?” So, but that was intentional and the director really was going for a non-traditional narrative.

Simone Smith, CCE:

I guess also, when you’re not cutting as much, or at least not obviously cutting within scenes, the ins and outs of those sections matter that much more, right?

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Hugely. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you’re going to do a cut and there’s only one every five minutes, it better be the right one.

Simone Smith, CCE:

And then one scene that comes to mind, just thinking of sound and how you work with sound. When it’s the scene in the car, in the rain and that windshield wiper is going, and that sort of repetitive sound just really ratchets up the tension. That-

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Huge to do that. Because it was matching performance and wipers. It’s like, the performance of the actor was obviously the most important, but I was also trying to get it with the wiper coming in at the right time, so it’s like a heartbeat. And you know, couldn’t have the wiper wipe when it’s not supposed to and all that stuff. But typical, that’s our job. We have to make it work. But no, that scene was a lot of fun. And when do you reveal the character? When do you show the rain on the windshield? All that stuff, that was a lot of fun to do. It’s a great scene. Yeah.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Yeah, it’s really effective.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

And everybody was sick. They shot for three days in the rain. They actually shot the first day with real rain, but then they realized they had to shoot it for three days, so then they had the rain machines and everyone got sick.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Oh, no.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

This is why we love editing in a comfortable room.

Simone Smith, CCE:

For sure.

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Yeah.

Simone Smith, CCE:

All right. And lastly, we’re going to take it over to Scarborough. Rich, do you want to tell us about your clip?

Rich Williamson:

Yeah. So the film revolves around three kids growing up in Scarborough who visit this drop in literacy center. And this specific clip is about Laura, who is the youngest. She comes from a very bad sort of situation. Her families… She’s been basically left by her mother at this bowling alley. Her father takes her in, who is not very capable of looking after her either. So at this literacy center, she kind of finds community and she finds someone in Ms. Heena who runs the center, who’s willing to look after her and see to teaching her certain things that maybe she hasn’t learned, so specifically she can’t read. So she’s teaching her how to read.

 

[clip plays]

Simone Smith, CCE:

All right. So Rich, do you want to talk a bit about how this scene came together?

Rich Williamson:

Yeah. Well, we were asked to show clips, and this was sort of a clip that we wanted- It’s hard to choose clips for this film because there’s so many characters. And so I just sort of put this one in there. There are three instances in the film where Ms. Heena and Laura have interactions, and you sort of watched this relationship sort of grow in that specific time, but you also see the tension of the father watching and him sort of disapproving, but not really saying anything, and it all comes to a head at this point. So it’s thinking about how to build that tension over those specific points, but also how much set up and pay off. How do you build her character, Laura, so that where she comes from and you know the situation and how dire it is, so that you can contrast that with the love and support that she finds in this space. So just trying to flesh out that contrast, but also looking at the performances, just trying to, less hinge on dialogue and more in looks like trying to just stay with moments, allow looks and gestures to express the feeling being expressed in the scene.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Right. Yeah. And I think, you know, have these moments of warmth like her and Ms. Heena. And just in general, this community that survival is, they work together and everyone’s helping each other really nicely…That camaraderie and that really leads to the, leads to their survival, and it’s that nugget of optimism in a pretty difficult film. So as co-director, DP and editor, how do you stay objective throughout this whole process?

Rich Williamson:

Oh.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Or do you?

Rich Williamson:

No, I don’t think I just have a really short term memory, so I kind of forget things and I’m like, oh, I see. When I shot it, I’m like, oh, that will work. I don’t know. I don’t know. I think it just comes from documentary? You’re used to just going out and shooting something and you come back and you just sort of piece it together. And I just sort of go with my gut. I tend not to get too bored of things, which is good. I know sometimes if I’m editing a film for somebody, I know if they’ve seen it a lot, sometimes they get bored of it, and so they want to change things. And I try to just remember how I felt the first time I watched it and just stick with that feeling. Not that you can’t go in and try to fuss with things and try to make it just that much tighter, but don’t go and rehaul something that on the first cut you were like, “oh, that’s just amazing. That’s just great,” because chances are that’s how everybody’s going to feel when they watch it. So that’s kind of…I don’t how I stay objective, but I just sort of trust that initial instinct.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Right. And with the sort of documentary style approach to filming, did you feel like you had enough of what you need? There was too much to choose from or varied scene to scene?

Rich Williamson:

I shoot a lot, almost to the point where I probably am pretty annoying. It’s usually like I’m shooting out the area and someone’s grabbing me saying, we need to get onto the next space, we need to go to the next shoot. And so I tend to shoot a lot just, and especially because this was our first film, I wanted to make sure that we had everything sometimes to the point where it was like, okay, we got it, we got it. So there were a lot of people there saying, we got it Rich. It’s good. I’ve been watching. And that’s why Shasha is so amazing, it’s like I have somebody there who is just sort of watching with me and she can just say to me, “we got it. I’ve been watching the objective that we were going for is there, so we don’t need to push it.”

But the difficulty is it’s just so much fun to play around with performance, and actors are so great when they’re flexible and they want to just try to add something new or just shake it up a bit. And that was the thing with our film, is that we really wanted to be very sort of loose and improvisational, and that can get to a place where you just get excited and you just want to try more and more and more. So yeah, I was never without footage for sure. I had lots to work with at the end of the day. Sometimes it was ridiculous. So I’d just be looking at your clips and be like, I should have just cut.

Jorge Weisz:

Those kids were amazing.

Rich Williamson:

Oh, thank you.

Jorge Weisz:

Amazing. Oh yeah, incredible.

Rich Williamson:

Thanks so much.

Simone Smith, CCE:

You touched upon a little bit earlier balancing all of these different plot lines, but how did you work through that? How much did the structure of the film change while you worked on it and who to focus on here or there?

Rich Williamson:

Right, yeah. I think we had a very open dialogue at the beginning between Josh and myself and Catherine that because it was documentary, we were focused on just keeping things loose. And that meant revision throughout the whole thing. Not just sticking true… Sticking true to the text, of course, but trying to just find the truth in the moment. And for actors, that’s great too, because sometimes it’s hard to say, sometimes when you write it down on the page, it’s not easy to say. And so having that sort of flexibility of going, “okay, this is what we’re going for.” I just say it in sort of your own, the way you would say it. So having that support from the beginning was really great. And I guess kind of unusual, right?. Not all writers are open to that sort of flexibility, so it was nice.

Simone Smith, CCE:

That’s great. Yeah. Well, we’re running low on time, but I have a bit of a corny question for you all, which is, what is it that gets you out of bed every day and right in front of that edit suite? Orlee, would you like to start?

Orlee:

Well, my joke answer is the dailies download button is a very exciting thing to press and see what’s coming. Maybe you can circle back to me after and I’ll give a serious answer.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Sure. Jorge?

Jorge Weisz:

I just love storytelling and I love, just love? going through the journey with these characters and solving problems and just making the story work. I just love to see… I just get very passionate with the projects that I choose to work and get involved with. So I want to go in with these characters into their journey. So it’s just gets me very excited. And it’s tough because after a while you’ve seen this so much, and the challenge is how can you keep yourself fresh and still get that buzz going? So that’s a challenge, but I don’t know. Still I go the next day and it still works. There’s some better days than others, but I don’t know, just, yeah, I think so.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Orlee. Are you ready?

Orlee:

I love making something from nothing. I think I love those moments when you’re like, ?oh, we just really don’t have this piece with them.? Kind of the invigoration that you get when you find something that’s maybe totally out of the box. I think there’s so many points like that during the edit, and I feel like it’s what gets me going, for sure.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Arthur?

Arthur Tarnowski, CCE, ACE:

Echo, all of that. And I would say the storyteller thing I really like. And when my kids were little and I’d read them bedtime stories and say “what’s your work dad?” And I’d say “it’s the same as what we’re doing now,” making up stories or except, you know, you get paid for it and hopefully by the end of it they don’t fall asleep. But to be serious, getting up in the morning, I really don’t see it as a job job. It’s really like, I think for most of us, editing is a passion, and the whole idea of getting new dailies, it’s back in the day when you used to get your pictures printed at the photo lab and looking at the pictures of your vacation. It’s as exciting as looking at those photos and discovering a whole world you’re going to be in for the next few months.

And working with performances, and like you said before, making something that wasn’t maybe not quite there. And just by juxtaposing a few things together, all of a sudden it takes shape-life. And just sitting in a movie theater and with a packed crowd and watching a film at Tiff like Drunken Birds this past September, and discovering the film with the audience, because it’s almost like watching it for the first time when you see it with an audience and just it’s… I mean, I still feel like a kid when I see a movie I’ve cut on a big screen. It’s the privilege and the feeling that it’s like a movie movie. I made a movie movie, like a real movie. So yeah, I still pinch myself to do things like that. Yeah, it’s a lot of fun.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Rich?

Rich Williamson:

I like just putting two images together and it sort of moves along into creating a story. And every time we shoot something, I always come back going, “is this going to edit together?” I still do it. I still get freaked out about it, but when it finally does, I get this tingle. It’s like, “oh yes, it’s working.” And I think too, what’s awesome about it is when you go in with an objective of, this is what I’m expecting from, this is what I want the scene to be about, but the possibilities inherent in editing where you go like, oh, we could actually take it this way. And if you’re kind of loose enough with the shooting of it, then you have that possibility, or like some of you were saying, when you have footage from totally out of context from a different scene and you can kind of incorporate it into the scene that you’re working on, that that’s sort of just, the endless possibilities is so much fun.

Simone Smith, CCE:

For sure. And Michelle?

Michelle Szemberg, CCE:

I think for me it’s the connection. And I think editing has so many different ways you can connect. So connecting two shots together, two scenes together, performances, even just how a look connects with another look, and also the connection between an editor and a director, the editor and the assistant, the editor, and the co editor if you happen to do that. So I’ve always been, more recently especially, more selective of the projects I work on, and a lot of it has to do with the energy and the cutting room. So working with people that you really connect with creatively, personally, it makes a whole experience. I mean, when you ask the question of what gets you up in the morning and want to go to work, when you’re going to work with people that you like and you feel this sort of creative energy with, it’s such an exciting experience.

For me, assembling by myself is my least favorite part of the process because I think most editors will say that it can be frustrating, it can be isolating, it can be insecure, it can have a lot of doubt, especially when you’re working with new people because you don’t know what they expect of you. But then when you get into the room with the director and things start taking shape and coming to life, it’s just such a wonderful process. And then the last bit of connection is connecting the film to the audience. So I think when you can do that, connect your characters and connect those characters to the audience. It’s a really magical experience and we’re really lucky to do it.

Simone Smith, CCE:

Thanks. It’s so beautiful. All your answers, really. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us about these films. Everyone, please go out and rent the film. See them in theaters, support Canadian Cinema and happy Edit Con 2022.

Speaker 9:

Thanks so much for joining us today. And a big thanks goes out to our panelists and moderator. A special thanks goes to the 2022 EditCon planning committee, Alison Dowler and Kim McTaggart, CCE. The main title Sound Design was created by Jane Tattersall, additional ADR recording by Andrea Rush. Original music created by Chad Blaine and Soundstr. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. The CCE is proud to support Hire BIPOC. Hire BIPOC is the definitive and ubiquitous industry-wide roster of Canadian BIPOC creatives and crew working in screen-based industries. Check out hirebipoc.ca to hire your next group or create a profile and get hired.

Speaker 10:

The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member, please visit our website, www.cceeditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [01:45:51]

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Jason Biron

Hosted and Produced by

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Design sonore du générique d'ouverture

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Mixé et masterisé par

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