Categories
The Editors Cut

Episode 069: Editors Across Canada

The Editors Cut - Episode 069 - Editing Across Canada

Episode 069 - Editing Across Canada

Today's episode is a conversation with Editors Across Canada that took place virtually November 2nd, 2021.

This episode was generously sponsored by IATSE 891. 

Annie Ilkow, CCE (GHOSTS) from Quebec, Jeremy Harty, CCE (TRAILER PARK BOYS) from Nova Scotia, Lisa Binkley, CCE (ZOMBIES 3) from British Columbia, Roderick Deogrades, CCE (CHAPELWAITE) from Ontario and Sarah Taylor (THE LAST BARON) from Alberta talk about their process and how it can be different (or similar) based on where they live.

Annie Ilkow

Annie Ilkow is a Montreal-based editor whose recent work includes Ghosts (CBS, single-camera comedy), TRANSPLANT (2 seasons, for NBC/CTV), and BLOOD & TREASURE (2 seasons, CBS action-adventure). She also edited the critically-acclaimed drama 19-2, the seminal DURHAM COUNTY. A graduate of the film program at Concordia University, she earned her MFA in Cinema at the University of East Anglia, UK.

Jeremy Harty, CCE

Born in BC, Raised in NS, calls Halifax home since 1998. Met Mike Clattenburg and edited his low budget feature TRAILER PARK BOYS in 1999. Since then has been doing anything TRAILER PARK BOYS related. Started editing things with Cory Bowles whenever our schedules allowed. Married with three kids and owns and operates Digiboyz Inc. (Post Production) since 2001.

Lisa Binkley, CCE

Award winning film and television editor Lisa Binkley began her career in post-production after having studied theatre and film production at U.B.C. She graduated from the Media Resources Program at Capilano University. Since then she has worked on numerous feature films, MOWs and television series. Her work was recognized when she received a Gemini Award (CSA) for her editing of the mini-series, HUMAN CARGO. This Canadian/South African co-production was directed by Brad Turner (HOMELAND & 24) and it received 17 Gemini Nominations and also won a Peabody Award. Her work on MGM’s critically acclaimed science fiction series, THE OUTER LIMITS and Showtime’s, THE L WORD (Written and produced by by Ilene Chaiken) has given Lisa the opportunity to work with such directors as Marlee Gorris (Academy Award Winner – ANTONIA’S LINE), Moises Kaufman (THE LARAMIE PROJECT), Helen Shaver (VIKINGS), Lynne Stopkewich (KISSED), and Kimberley Peirce (BOYS DON’T CRY). She is currently working on ZOMBIES 3 for Disney+, directed by Paul Hoen. Lisa is a full member of IATSE 891, ACFC West and is a voting member of the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences. In 2008, she was inducted as a full member into the Canadian Cinema Editors (CCE) honourary society.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE

Roderick is an award-winning Picture and Sound Editor who has worked in the film industry for over twenty years. His extensive knowledge of both sides of the post equation has proven invaluable. His experience in feature films, TV series, shorts and documentaries has established him as one of the industry’s most sought-after collaborators. On the picture side, he is known for his work on STILL MINE (2012), VICTORIA DAY (2009) and ONE WEEK (2008). For television, he has edited THE EXPANSE (Season 3 to 6), KILLJOYS (Season 4 & 5), and Chapelwaite (2021). He picture edited acclaimed documentaries such as 100 FILMS & A FUNERAL (2007), THE GHOSTS IN OUR MACHINE (2013), DAVID & ME (2014) and SILAS (2017). His sound editing work includes SPLICE (2009), PASSCHENDAELE (2008) and SILENT HILL (2006). He is currently picture editing the series BILLY THE KID.

Sarah

Sarah Taylor

Sarah Taylor is a multi-award-winning editor with twenty years of experience. She has cut a wide range of documentaries, television programs, shorts, and feature films. Sarah strives to help shape unique stories from unheard voices. She is a member of the Directors Guild of Canada (DGC) and the host of of the Canadian Cinema Editors (CCE) podcast The Editor’s Cut. Sarah is also the co-host of the podcast Braaains.

 
 
This episode was generously sponsored by IATSE 891.
 

IATSE Sponsor logo

Listen Here

The Editor’s Cut – Episode 069 – “Editors Across Canada”

Sarah Taylor:
This episode was generously sponsored by IATSE 891.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Saying no sometimes can be a good… and it’s taken me a long time to learn that. And I think if more of us do that, I think it might be a better working conditions for everybody. So, does this really have to go out tonight? Does it really? Or can this wait till tomorrow?

Sarah Taylor:
Hello, and welcome to the Editor’s Cut. I’m your host, Sarah Taylor. We would like to point out that the lands on which we have created this podcast, and that many of you may be listening to us from, are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we are on ancestral territory that has long served as a place where indigenous peoples have lived, met, and interacted. We honor, respect, and recognize these nations that have never relinquished their rights or sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many contributions, and the concerns that impact indigenous individuals and communities. Land acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.
Today I bring to you the virtual event that took place on November 2nd, 2021, a conversation with editors across Canada. We’re joined by Annie Ilkow, CCE from Quebec, Jeremy Harty, CCE from Nova Scotia, Lisa Binkley, CCE from British Columbia, Roderick Deogrades, CCE from Ontario, and myself, Sarah Taylor from Alberta. We talk about our process and how things are different and the same, based on where we live.

[show open]

Sarah Taylor:
Today, we are going to be talking about editing across Canada. So, I’m pleased to be joined with Lisa, Annie, Jeremy, and Roderick. So to start, I just wanted to go through the group and kind of give a brief history of our careers and, where we’re from, where we started, and how we got to the location we’re at now. I figured just to get the ball rolling, I’ll start. I’m Sarah Taylor and I’m based in Edmonton. And I’m wearing my, still in Edmonton shirt because I’m still in Edmonton. I went to Grant MacEwen, which was a local college, now university. Took a digital arts and media program, which was kind of a generalist program. We learned graphic design, photography, shooting, editing. And then I fell in love with editing, realized that I could sit in a dark room for hours and hours on end by myself, and I really liked it, so I pursued it.
I had the privilege of working at a local TV station for about four years where I got to work with seasoned editors, which I think is kind of a novelty now. I feel like that’s not happening as often. So, I was lucky to learn from some pros, which really gave me a good learning ground. And then I dabbled in some corporate video production houses for a while, and then I broke it into the freelance world in 2012. And that’s where I’ve been ever since. And my main focus has been documentary, because documentary’s quite strong in Edmonton, but I have been lucky enough to do a bit of everything. So, I’ve done some scripted comedy, I’ve done some feature films, I’ve done a lot of short films. And I love living where I’m living, and I have a family and it’s great for me. So, that’s my start and where I am now. So, I’m going to pass it on to Lisa.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
My name’s Lisa Binkley, and I’m based out of Vancouver, British Columbia. I went to UBC for two years, and I took theater. And as part of the theater program, I took a film history course. And it was by a woman who was an incredible teacher of film history, and she totally opened up my eyes to the fact that, oh my God, you can actually earn a living and work in this industry in Vancouver. And it was back in the early days. I’m embarrassed to say it’s quite a few years ago when the film industry was just sort of starting here. So, I went to school for two years at UBC, and then I went to two years to a media resources program at CAP College in North Van. And that was great because it was everything. It was photography, audio, video, film, editing, everything, and graduated from that. And a couple of people from that program had gone on into editing. And through the film history course that I took, I realized the people who I most admired and the films that really impacted me as a young person, I studied who those filmmakers were, and they were at one point editors. So I thought, I’m going to go into editing. That’s what I’m going to do. And I did. And so I harassed every editor in town after I got out of school until one assistant finally called me back and asked me to come down. And I worked as a PA at first. And since then, worked my way up. I went from production assistant running around getting lunches for everybody on a show called MacGyver. And I just worked my way up as a second assistant, first assistant, and then begged and begged and begged to get episodes to cut, and got an episode, got a couple more episodes, and then finally made the jump, which is very difficult from assisting to editing. And I’ve done editing full-time since ’95.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s awesome. Jeremy!

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
My name is Jeremy Harty. I started out in radio and television broadcasting, of course, in Nova Scotia, and that’s where I am right now, in Halifax. And that was in ’98. I got lucky with an internship at a small post-production company in the city, and that turned into a full-time job. And from that, I met some people. I got connected with Mike Clattenburg, the creator of Trailer Park Boys, and that pretty much started my career and doing short films with some of the cast from the show over the years, like Cory Bowles. And then he did a feature film. And I’ve done all sorts of weird stuff like that. But I’ve been mostly Trailer Park and comedy, and that’s my bread and butter. Not too exciting, but…and I own a small post production facility out here just to try to keep myself busy on different facets besides just editing.

Sarah Taylor:
I think it’s pretty exciting. I’m just going to say, comedy in the edit suite’s the best.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Oh yeah, there’s lots of good pranks.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah, I bet. Annie.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Well, I grew up in Montreal. I’m one of those Anglo-Montrealers, that small slice of the population. And I went to Concordia University. I did two degrees. Actually, I have third degree burn… I did a BA in English and a BA in film production, and then I did an MFA in England in film. I was lucky enough to come into the NFB in Montreal at the tail end of some of the careers of some of the pioneers of the sixties, so Wolf Koenig and those crew who gave me my start as an editor. So, I started cutting documentaries, and then I have moved on to doing… Well, one of the nice things about Montreal is that it’s a very small pond, and so we’re lucky enough that we get to do a lot of different things. Not a lot of editors in the industry get to do doc and fiction and comedy and move between those throughout our career, so I’ve been lucky enough to do that. My husband’s also an editor, and we’ve been working consistently for the last 25 years, and that’s where I’m at.

Sarah Taylor:
It’s really cool to hear that in Quebec that I wouldn’t think that you would have the luxury to jump between genres cuz that’s what it’s like for me in Alberta. And I am surprised to hear that. That’s really great!

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Yeah, I think it’s because it’s a small community of Anglo editors. That, we…you know, there is not that many of us. So we get to move between the genres. And it’s a real privilege for sure. I know how lucky I am.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah, awesome. And last but not least, Roderick.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
So, I’m based out of Toronto, Ontario. Roderick Deogrades. Hello everybody. Welcome. I guess ever since high school, I knew I wanted to be in film. I just didn’t know how or what I was going to do. So, I pursued that. I tried to get into Ryerson. I didn’t make it into Ryerson’s cut. It was funny because they asked for like… an eight by ten envelope of submitting anything that you have. So, I came with my little envelope, and everybody came with boxes and reels and stuff, so I knew I didn’t have a chance. (deleted) So another university I applied for, I got in was University of Windsor. I thought I’ll go there for a year, and then go back to Ryerson. But I discovered fairly quickly that Windsor’s program was quite great. It was a communications studies program. And you start off by doing everything from film, TV, radio, advertising. And then your second year, you can focus on whatever you wanted to.
So, that’s what I did, and I focused on film and television production. And at the same time, I found a little bit of a loophole where instead of taking my electives, I can do another double major. So, I double majored in dramatic arts. So while I was doing film and TV, I was doing directing, acting, improv, costume design, stage lighting. It was a blast. I had such a great time at university. Got out of there, and I knew that I loved editing and I loved camera, so I didn’t know which way I was going to go. So, I kind of said to myself, the first one that hires me, that’s the road I’m going to go down. And I got a trainee assistant position at a low budget feature film, and it just snowballed from there for me. I took a little bit of a side tandem, almost like with the film and TV and dramatic arts. As I was trying to pursue picture editing through assisting and everything, I got connected with Jane Tattersall here in Toronto and I started assisting her in sound, ’cause I figured, oh… half of picture editing is sound editing, so I’ll learn that too. But fairly quickly, I became one of her sound editors doing features and TV shows while I was, at the same time, trying to work up my ranks as an editor. And so for a while, it was a bit like a lot of sound, hardly a lot of picture. And then all of a sudden, this kind of came up. And then, so now I’ve mostly been focusing on picture editing for a few years now. And I’ve done everything from features to series to shorts to a lot of documentaries, different genres too as well. And I have a blast doing it.

Sarah Taylor:
Working with Jane Tattersall, that must have been so much amazing knowledge to gain. And like bringing that into the picture editing world, that’s amazing.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
It was great. When I started with her, it was just her and David McCallum and me.

Sarah Taylor:
Wow.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
So, it was like very early days when she left Casablanca, and it was great. What a great mentor to have in terms of the sound and of things. And everything that I’ve learned in sound, I just use every day in picture.

Sarah Taylor:
Oh…That’s awesome. That’s a great… I feel like all editors should have at least like…I don’t know…. a couple weeks working with the sound, like somebody like Jane Tattersall that would bring a lots back into the edit suites. Well, my next question is how do we find work in our area? Like…what are the ways of getting your next job? For myself, it’s just been word of mouth for me. And I find, like I mentioned earlier, working in the TV station, a lot of young producers and directors started their careers there too. So, I made these connections with all these people just starting their career. And then as I got more seasoned, they were also getting better and doing more, and they would remember me from back in the day. And so I’ve got a lot of work either through the people, directly through them, working with them, or they said, “Oh, you should go talk to Sarah.” And then slowly as I… and then I just built a reputation. I work with the same directors and the same producers often over and over again. I’m guessing similar to Jeremy, I started working on a series called Caution: May Contain Nuts. And we did five seasons, and then we did Tiny Plastic Men, so we did four seasons of that. And then we did another show called Delmer. And so I just kept working with that production company on all of their shows, and that’s kind of how it’s been going. And then it’s helped being part of the CCE and getting nominated for awards and for people to put their name out there because I’ve been also lucky enough to get jobs by not even winning the awards necessarily, but my name being on an awards nominee list. Then somebody’s looking for an editor, they wanted somebody new to work with, and I’ve gotten contacts that way too. So yeah, it didn’t really matter that I was in Edmonton for some of those jobs. They just found me through an award list. And then I got to work on a cool show that wasn’t based out of Alberta. So, that was a neat turn of events for me. Let’s go backwards. We’ll start with Roderick in this one.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Well, I was the same as you kind of starting off. It was always word of mouth. It was always through like people that I’ve worked with before that would then seek me out under next projects. Lots of things like, “Hey, do you know an editor?” “Yeah. Oh yeah. Actually, I just worked with somebody.” So, it was a lot of that. And that’s how I relied on getting my next gig for the longest time. And I kept consistently busy. Now lately, I’m in that kind of world of being represented by agents, and so my agent now plays a bigger part in terms of getting me into doors, where I normally… before I got an agent, I normally wouldn’t have the opportunity to, because either it’d be too late because I didn’t know about them or the particular job. So, I get that. I still get my regular sort of people I collaborated with in the past. And you make a really great point, Sarah, about the whole kind of awards and nomination thing, because it is another way to get your name out there and doing things like this and just being visible and being upfront as somebody that people can recognize and look at and seek out.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah, I totally want to touch on the agent stuff.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:
So, we’ll talk about that again later, but I think-

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Sorry. Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:
I would just be curious to know your experience and if anybody else has got experience with that. How about Jeremy?

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Basically, it’s word of mouth for me. And like I said, I got partnered up with Clattenburg early on. We were doing a beer commercial. And then one day, the editor at the post house said, “Yeah, Clattenburg has some short film or feature length film. I don’t know. I don’t have the time for it.” And so for 13 hour days for five days straight, we cut the first black and white feature. And then it got sold as a series, and that just was along that path. And everything else in my career has basically been with people that were brought on as producers on that or actors from the show that have done other things, and just that kind of word of mouth. Unlike some people, I haven’t been too blessed with nominations or anything. Trailer Park’s not really one of those things that people go to and say, “Oh, the editing is so amazing on that show.” So, that doesn’t get me any gigs. It’s just working with the small people in this community that are tight-knit and having that word of mouth is a godsend really.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Sorry Jeremy, but the editing in Trailer Park Boys is pretty damn good.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Sometimes. Sometimes.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah, it’s very important.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Yes, an iconic television. It’s like it doesn’t get much bigger than that in Canada. It’s amazing.

Sarah Taylor:
Come on!

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Well, we are blessed with our fans that are still following us, even though we’re not so active. We did the animated series, which is… that was so different, cutting animated from the stuff that I was used to. It was a big learning curve, but I was-

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
No kidding.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
… blessed with some good people that help me along on that path.

Sarah Taylor:
I didn’t even think about… I noticed that that was on your resume, and I didn’t even realize, well yeah, that’s a whole different world, doing animation editing versus normal picture editing.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah, you’re just cutting sound and hoping that the picture won’t suck later.

Sarah Taylor:
Oh, I love it. That’s awesome. Okay, how about Annie.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
The situation in Montreal is, as you can imagine, a little bit unique in that we’re dealing with the two solitudes. And I always get my jobs through producers and directors that I’ve worked with before, but there’s the added difficulty of crossing over between the languages sometimes. And usually what ends up happening is a francophone director will get a gig in English, and then they will meet me and they will bring me over to the French side, because otherwise, I wouldn’t be asked to do those jobs. There’s many, many great francophone editors in this town. So, that’s the way I’ve managed to cross over to do work in French, but it hasn’t happened as much as I would like. So generally, I work for two or three production companies in our town. And some of them are service jobs, and some of them are homegrown productions. And there’s a few shows like Transplant that I’ve been cutting for the last two seasons that are shot in Montreal, so I got the gig. But generally, it’s those relationships with the production companies that are doing big budget stuff, and I’ve been lucky enough to get those gigs, but it is tricky. And in terms of agents and stuff, I know a lot of other editors who have ditched their agents because all of the jobs come through word of mouth, and they just don’t feel like they want to cough up the 10% or 15% to the agent because it’s not really bringing them anything, because it is such a sort of a word of mouth kind of community here. So in Montreal, it doesn’t really work. But definitely, I think we are all looking at how things are changing in terms of tax credits and jobs being kind of done remotely. And I got a job in LA and I got a job out of BC. And so because there’s such a demand for labor, sometimes people are willing to take the hit in terms of the tax credit and hire you out of province to work somewhere else. So, that’s starting to happen I think more and more.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s really great to hear. I think Roderick, you have a similar story where you’re working in BC on a show. And I think even for myself, over COVID was working with a company in Italy. So, there’s like a weird random things that can happen. I don’t know how tax credits work there, but typically, it was always like, “Oh no, sorry, you need to be an Ontario resident or you need to be an Alberta resident because we need this tax credit.” So, it’s really great to hear that that’s shifting. I think through COVID, we’ve realized we can do work anywhere. It’s possible.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Exactly.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:
A lots great to hear.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:
Lisa.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Yeah, it’s the same thing. I find out from word of mouth from producers and directors I’ve worked with in the past. I’ve never had an agent. I think I looked into doing that at one point because I was hoping that it would bring a variety of other projects or higher profile projects. But I found from talking to other people, at least in Vancouver, that it is pretty much word of mouth and your reputation. So, I just haven’t thought that it would be something that… because I kind of feel like I’ve got a name for myself here, so I think people will call upon me. I have to admit though, some of the bigger projects that have come to town you’d miss out on, and I kind of wonder what was that because either you didn’t get the connection of the person that was involved or agents got there beforehand. And people, sometimes they’ve gotten interviews, and you didn’t even get a chance to interview and they’ve already got the job. So, it depends. I can see a benefit to agents, but for me personally, I’ve been, I guess, fortunate to have not to had to rely on one. In Vancouver, the climate’s a little different in that it’s a heavy service industry here, and they do a lot of shooting on bigger shows, but they don’t necessarily hire editing here. So, it’s tough because we primarily… most of the shows that work here that hire editors traditionally have been Hallmark and Lifetime. And right now, it has sucked up quite a few of our talent so that people aren’t available for the bigger shows that do come to town that would maybe hire local editors. So, it’s tough because you do want to get better shows to work on, more creatively interesting shows to work on, but for a lot of us it’s really difficult because those opportunities are pretty slim. So, there’s so many of us, and then we’re all vying for the same kind of jobs. And we really don’t have a lot of local independent Canadian production happening here as well. We lost our Western drama division years ago, so everything sort of is being developed out east, and it’s not really happening out here. I’m very fortunate to be starting on a show that is a local show, and I have been very fortunate to work on local shows in the past, but we really don’t have as much as, say Toronto does with their co-productions. It’s very competitive here.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s kind of that idea of… same with like in Alberta. Maybe it’s similar in Nova Scotia where there’s shows that got shot in Alberta in the Mountains in Calgary all the time, major, huge shows. And the thought of post is like meh…not even a…yeah…which is unfortunate.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
I just wanted to ask… like I said, I’ve been really lucky to be working consistently and on good budget shows and interesting shows, but I got to admit that it’s usually like there’s one or two. And are you actually in a position to pick and choose between two, or God knows, three projects? Does that exist in the rest of Canada? Is that something that happens. Because I’m like, woo, okay, I got that show for the next three months, woo-hoo. And I’m not complaining. They’re great shows, but there is one, and I know there’s six of us in town that… and so it’s kind of like that here. I don’t know. What is it like for you guys? Do the people living in bigger cities or with agents, does that make a difference? Are you picking and choosing or-

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I think to a certain degree, they’re like in Toronto anyway, there is a lot more productions going through here and looking for editors. And I mean, once a while…we started up after the lockdown and production started going back, and everybody was clambering to get crewed. And so there was so much to choose from. During that time, there was actually a lot to choose from in terms of where you wanted to end up first. And even now, I find that there is… my agent, I’ll call and kind of coming up to the end of a show that I’m on, it’s like, “Okay, so what’s coming up?” And she’ll usually say, “Okay, well, there’s this show, there’s this show, and there’s that show. Which one are you interested in? Which one should we pursue?” Right? But that doesn’t mean that I’m like, all three shows want me. It’s like what do I want to go for?

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Right. Right. That’s great.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
And also is it like, do you want to get into features on your next round? Do you want to go into series? Right?

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Yeah.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
So, there is… and then plus, and that’s what the agent is sort of presenting to me. But sometimes, at the same time, I’ll have producers and directors I’ve worked with before also emailing and calling and saying, “Hey, somebody’s coming up, what’s your availability?” So, I got to weigh all that together.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Right.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
So I mean, it’s Toronto, right? Because I could imagine that it’s not like that countrywide, but that’s what I’ve experienced. And not just me, but also other editors that I talked to as well.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I have to say that out east out here… it was funny, when Lisa was referring to out east, I was thinking-

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
How far east?

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah. This far east, we maybe have three or four shows, tops. I have to say that there’s a lot of resentment in my heart sometimes when I hear of a show shooting here, and then I hear that, Toronto. That’s where all the post is going back. And I’ve started a post house here in hopes of keeping some stuff here, but it’s hard. Even with a post house, we were the lab on The Sinner, and they didn’t even want to talk to any of us about editing that. So, it’s… shows come in, and they’ve already planned they’re going out. They’re not going to even sit here. And sometimes, they don’t even process their footage here when they’re done shooting. They just ship it all out to Toronto or New York or LA.

Sarah Taylor:
Or they bring their own crew. I know that happened… I was talking with the editors of Ghostbusters, and they went to Calgary and were doing cutting in Calgary. I was like, oh, I’m glad that you cut it, but I was like, oh-

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
There’s been some editors that have cut shows that have been shot here, and that we were hoping crews would be working here. But yeah, they went back, one editor there and one editor here.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Split.

Sarah Taylor:
For me in Alberta, I just say yes to everything. Now, I’m trying to say no more, but I often find that I’ll be like, oh God, every… and especially after COVID, and we paused and then everything started again, I was like, this hasn’t worked well for me. I have too many things to do. It’s all doc, mostly doc for me. And so the only scripted show that’s been happening as of late has been Heartland, and that’s done now in Calgary, so it’s not even on my radar. So yeah, there’s definitely not any vying for options really.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Here in Vancouver, I think there’s a lot more opportunity to work on bigger projects if you’re an assistant.

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:25:04]

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
They tend to get better opportunities in terms of the big features and working with editors that are iconic people. That’s cool for assistance in Vancouver. I just wish on some of the shows that were up here that are the bigger ones that they would at least interview. If we could just get an interview just to meet people. I find that the local producers here barely know what we do. It’s really… it’s sort of hard… you can’t even get yourself at the table, which is too bad, because we have so many talented editors and assistants here who are incredible. As I’m sure that we are across the country. It’s, again, trying to get the opportunity to get your foot in the door is a real challenge.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I got to figure too, that we’d be cost effective.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
I know. I know.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Why aren’t they even considering that. I’ve cut shows that I know if it was cut in Toronto or somewhere else it’d cost even more than me cutting it. I’m pretty cheap.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Right now I’m cutting a show for CBS, which is normally would’ve been cut in LA, but it’s being cut in Montreal and there is an LA editor and then two Montreal editors. It’s a bit of a learning curve for the Americans, because they’re used to… they’re a bit chauvinistic when it comes to talent. It usually… It takes two or three weeks before they’re like, “Oh, you guys get it?”

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Yes.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
It’s all like… I’ve seen it. I did a show for MGM. I did another show for CBS. Then the same thing happens every time. They’re like, “Yeah, I don’t think you guys… do we really… have you seen Seinfeld? Do you understand?” They really don’t think that we share any cultural touchstones at all.

Sarah Taylor:
Oh dear.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
They think we’re like Finland? Then they see your work and they’re like, “Oh, oh, okay!” They’ve sort of accepted it from the crew for a long time, but from… in post it’s kind of new. The show I’m doing now is a comedy and they’re like, “Oh, but you’ve done drama, but comedy that’s way different. You can’t possibly know what that is.” They get it and then they’re like, “Okay.” It’s really… it’s top heavy. It’s hard for them to get it at the beginning, but eventually they do. They have to… it’s, obviously, the bottom line. We’re so much cheaper, and the tax credits, and everything make it just much more attractive. CBS has a relationship now with the company I work with in Montreal a lot. It’s really a tough slog to get them to see the post as good as the crews are now. I think the crews are seen as top-notch, but at post they’re still not getting that.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
We’ve been saying this, I remember when I started out, it’s been that way since the beginning. It’s almost… When I started out I was on a big MGM series, the first, I think, it was the first visual effects series done in Canada called the Outer Limits. It was an amazing project and it trained a whole ton of people that have since gone on to do really incredible things, but the opportunities for that talent, the types of shows, levels of shows that we could be working on it hasn’t gone like we were all hoping it would. Do you know what I mean? It’s sort of stagnated.

Sarah Taylor:
And in BC, you have damn good editors. Is that what this is called?

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Yes, with IATSE.

Sarah Taylor:
And we have a post production allian… or association in Alberta, that’s talking to government and trying to like, promote Alberta editors and I know that Ontario has Ontario Creates so maybe and like there’s all these, I think people are trying to start. They are starting, but it’s still getting the message out there that giving us a chance or at least looking at the options. The more we talk about it maybe the more it’ll get better? I wanted to ask Rodrick, what made you decide to get an agent and how have you noticed the shift? Because I think people are curious about that.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I was very late and I was very hesitant in the whole agent thing, because for years and years, I’m cutting docs, I’m cutting features, I’m doing all this stuff, and I’m not having to look. I didn’t… as Lisa was saying, I didn’t want to give up 10%, right? But slowly but surely what I started discovering was the shows that I did want to get onto every time I contacted the producers or the production they’d already crewed, right? Way ahead of me even knowing that they were going to be in town. I was like, “Hmm, okay. Great.” Or I would get calls from those big shows saying, “Hey, we need another editor. We lost an editor. Are you available?” But, I’m already committed to something else that I’d gotten on my own, so I couldn’t really leave. And then the clincher for me was early in my career I would have up-and-coming creatives and professionals, “Hey, can we go for coffee? I just want to pick your brain about getting into the industry.” I’m like…

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
“…yeah, absolutely.” Right? Then slowly but surely those people a few years later are the ones that are getting the gigs that I wanted. I was like, “What? What’s going on here?” It was because they were repped. Pretty quickly I was like, “Okay, I got to change my tune about this whole agent thing.” I did my due diligence and I got signed up with Vanguard. What that has afforded me is having a line into these productions that are thinking about coming to Toronto. The first thing those productions do in the States and everywhere else is they call the agencies in Toronto saying give us a list of your editors, right? Already they’re looking at my resume or they’re putting my name forward before they even set foot in here. Sometimes before they’re even green lit to come here. So by the time they do come here I’ve already been tossed around in their head. That’s the biggest advantage for me in terms of… that and not having to talk money with the producers.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah. That would be the thing I would want.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Going, oh yeah, you got to talk to my agent.

Sarah Taylor:
Talk to my agent!

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Sorry.

Sarah Taylor:
Oh, I would love that. Sometimes I joke that I’m like, I’m just going to pretend my husband’s my business manager. He’s got a different last name. Speak to my manager.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Yeah, that’s the plus, right?

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I still get my roster of people I collaborate with and producers. I’m more than happy to do that, but it feels like now I’ve got, as sort of being in Toronto, I have more choice in terms of what I want to do next, where I want to take my career. And my agent is also very keen, tuned into what I want to do or where I want to be in five years, in ten years.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
They’re strategic about where to put me. They’re not going to just put my name out anywhere. They’ll go, “Oh, no. That’s not for you. This one. I want you to work with this filmmaker, because I think this is a good investment in that.” Right.

Sarah Taylor:
You saying that makes me think it almost forces you to have like… a plan, right?

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
A plan.

Sarah Taylor:
To think where do I want to go? Where do I want to be? Maybe other people do this, but I’m not the best at it. Where it’s like, “I’m busy. I’m working. I’m just going to keep working. I’m going to keep doing the thing I do, because I’m making money. Everything’s great.” But you need to sometimes pause or have an external person be like, “Well, what do you really want to work on?”

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
That was the first question they asked me. Where do you see yourself in five years? What kind of shows do you want to cut in five years, right? Within the year they got me that kind of show.

Sarah Taylor:
Oh, that’s awesome.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Right. I was just like, “Okay.”

Sarah Taylor:
What’s happening?

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
This is great, right? Yeah. After a year we had a meeting, I was like, “Now what?”

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah. Like you… That’s great. Oh!

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Right.

Sarah Taylor:
Well, that’s a success story. An agent success story. Okay.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Yeah. It is.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s great.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Look, I have to say that it’s not just get an agent and everything will work out great, because it really is a relationship that you have to… as much as they’re interviewing you to sign you up to their agency you’re interviewing them. Is this the kind of person that has your best interest at heart? Are they going to work with you in terms of where you want to go? That’s something to really consider when you are talking to agents. A little bit about what the roster is like. Do you feel a niche in their group of editors that they might have that doesn’t match somebody else? Therefore, now you’re unique within their roster of editors. That’s something else to look into as well.

Sarah Taylor:
Awesome. That’s great. We have a couple of questions that actually go into our next topics. First, Alex wants to know, Annie, what Montreal post houses do you work with?

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Well, it’s…become heavily consolidated lately. So there is MELS and there is Difuze, those are the two main places that are still hosting out edit facilities. Of course, there are lots of tiny ones, but those are the two main labs down. And they are both owned by…well one is owned by Quebecor, and that’s probably follows the move in most of the industry, just that consolidation. That’s like all the small places that used to be the little boutique places that are really fun to work at, kind of gotten eaten up. So that’s the situation in Montreal now.

Sarah Taylor:
Similar to Toronto, I feel like, too, right? There’s been a bunch of places merged. And then, Alex’s another question which is one of my questions is unions. So are you part of the union? What union are you part of? I’m a DGC Alberta person, but I haven’t had a DGC Alberta show in like five years, so it’s because it’s not happening. Yeah, where is everybody at with union?

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I mostly focus on that. Occasionally, I’ll get a doc that might not be DGC and then I get dispensation, but I’m mostly doing DGC Ontario shows.

Sarah Taylor:
I’m IATSE and we have a Quebec Union also called Actis. They recently merged, because it was for a long time it was just the Quebec Union and then some of the cinematographers called on IATSE and said, “Hey, we would kind of like representation.” Then it was like the monster came in. In a way it’s been awesome. So now that the two unions have merged, and it depends on the budget level of the show, but IATSE is. Yeah, that’s our main union here.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Same with us. We have IATSE 891 here, which I’m a member and we also have ACFC West, which is an affiliate union. Then we have a ton of non-union work, as I said, with the Hallmark and Lifetime. So-
Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Right.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Because we don’t get a lot of work, a lot of people are a part of everything, because it’s just the nature of the beast is that we have to earn a living, so-

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Right.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Lisa, what’s the difference between the IATSE and the ACFC unions out there?

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
It’s basically their contracts that they negotiate. Usually the IATSE shows are bigger budget-
Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I see.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
The ACFC shows are lower budget. The ACFC shows tend to support more local, locally independent Canadian or BC based productions, whereas, IATSE is this machine juggernaut for the service industry for all of the American TV shows that are coming here.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Yeah, same here.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I’m in the DGC and at the same time I am also in IATSE 667 as a DIT.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Okay.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Digital imaging tech. That actually has got me way more phone calls than DGC. I’ve been offered gigs in Manitoba and elsewhere, just because there’s a shortage there. So it’s funny, because I hope that there’d be more shortage of editors, so I could get more editing gigs, but there’s not.

Sarah Taylor:
The next thing I was curious about is what is your work environment like? We can talk about, what was it like pre-COVID and post-COVID. For me personally, it didn’t really change. I work from home. This is my edit suite where we are right now. There was one… I had one client director that liked me to work out of her home studio, so I would go there a few weeks out of every couple months, but then that stopped. That was basically it for me. Work from home kind of creates my own schedule. That’s what it’s been like since I started freelancing in 2012. I sometimes miss the potlucks that we used to have in offices and getting to have an editor come and look at a cut if I needed to get a fresh set of eyes, I miss that sort of thing, but I like that I can export something at six o’clock and then upload it and I don’t have to run around. Yeah, I can be at home still. Then it was an easy transition during COVID, because I was already used to being by myself.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Yeah, that’s great.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
That’s great.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
I was working at…it was strange before COVID I was at Finale this facility working on a show, a Netflix show, and there was three editors working, and, I think, we had four assistants. Then COVID hit, and we went home, and finished the shows, and we were like within two days up and going at home to continue. And then everything stopped after that show. Thank God we had that show. That was good, because it gave us some work into the time when everything shut down and then there was nothing for months. Then I worked on an independent feature that was shot in Taiwan…shot in Taiwan, Beijing, Detroit, and in Vancouver. I worked out of my living room, if you will, on a system. That was great. My assistant was in… two assistants were in Taiwan. It was fascinating, because we were thrown into that remote workflow and it worked really well. Then started on this project that I’m on right now at home. It was shot in Toronto and I was working at home and then the director, who’s from Los Angeles, wanted to work in person. I came back to Finale and he was here and this is why we have a little plexiglass. He sits over behind me with his N95 mask on and all the safety protocols are in place here. We did his cut and then it went to testing. We’re dealing with our testing notes now. It’s been a bit of both worlds. I loved working from home. I really did, because I found I was more focused. I was able to… I don’t know. I was able to concentrate better, but what I missed dearly was, as you said, bringing people into the room to get their feedback and to brainstorm. It’s harder to do that on Zoom. You can still do it, but it’s something about bringing somebody physically into the room that I really missed.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
When COVID hit I was working on a show called Blood and Treasure for CBS and my husband was on the show also. We worked out of our home studio, which is this three of us here, my teenage son and the two of us editors working with headphones for three months. I could not wait to get back to the lab. They were on hiatus for a while, because it was all being shot in Thailand in Italy. They had to wait till the restrictions lifted and they were finally able to finish the shoot. We had 20 days left of shooting out of 170 days for the series. They finished the shoot and I went back to the lab. My husband kept cutting here and we’ve been cobbling it all together. Now, my husband cuts a show that shot mostly here, but during the director’s cuts he goes to the lab and they cut together in the studio.
I was very happy to go back to the cutting room where I had my assistant who I’ve worked with for 25 years and that whole… all the support that was wonderful. I really like my little room there where I can get out of the house and that suits me very well. A bike ride, and 10 hours, and then home.
It’s been… I work in different places in Montreal, but the main one has been, because the companies that I work with tend to use the same labs all the time. That’s where I’ve been at for the last two years and it’s very comfy, and I have my workout equipment, and my humidifier, so it’s very homey.

Sarah Taylor:
I was just curious about the… because you mentioned that your husband’s still doing some stuff at home, but then does his director’s cuts in the studio. Is it because that post house or that lab is connected already with the production that there’s a space for him to do that?

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Yes.

Sarah Taylor:
How is…?

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:
Okay, that’s how it’s set up.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
They’re processing the rushes and they’re doing everything. When he was just assembling he was working at home and then when they had to come together it was considered sort of like A) safer and B) that was just a protocol, because they were having producers, and directors, and sometimes six people in the room. They needed a really big suite to accommodate all those people for screenings and stuff.

Sarah Taylor:
I feel like for me in Alberta, that’s the one thing that I kinda miss… I wish there was… I think there are some… I can probably find out if there is something that I can do but where I could, just for those moments, sort of like fine cut sessions, or getting to picture locked, not always have somebody come to my house, like, it’s okay, but during COVID that’s where it kinda became this kind of weird like “I don’t know if I really want you in my house, so to have that opportunity to be able to…”. And then I was like I have a server here, I can’t really take my server with me, too. Yeah, that’s like to have that option is pretty awesome.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I was in this odd, I only say odd because mostly everybody I knew once Toronto production started up again or post production they all started from home. I was kind of… me and a couple of other editors were actually went into a facility to start working in August, which in the beginning was very scary. Right? What I discovered was it was fairly safe, because everybody followed protocol. Everybody was followed the rules and the facility itself was great. One way into the building, one way out, that kind of stuff. What I discovered was it was really great for my mental health. Is what I found, because rather than being cooped up at home, which I could work from home easily and be productive and all that stuff. I do know of a lot of editors that have been working from home since August 2020 that are now just clamoring for anything social or interactive with another body. For the same reason, because I thrive on collaborating. I thrive on pulling other editors and assistants and saying, “What do you think of this?” Going for a walk to go get coffee, and talking story, and talking characters. The funny thing is on that first show, the first director came in for their director’s cut, and then the producer came in for their producer’s cut. After that it was all remote. All the creatives, directors, and show runners, and producers from that point on since then on three show shows, I guess, I’ve been on since last August have all been remote through like ClearView or Whatnot. That’s been odd, but being able to separate home life and work life has been really, I find, in terms of my mental health and dealing with the pandemic and being affected by it kept me sane. I was really thankful for that.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah. Totally. That totally makes sense.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:
How about you, Jeremy?

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Well, I own my own post house. So-

Sarah Taylor:
That’s good. That helped.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
It’s very small. We are also a lab that do our own processing and I’m in the same building as the Trailer Park Boys. When COVID hit we were actually working on an animated series and a lot of the team were outside of the province already. We were using Frame.io and that’s how most of our workflow was going. When we kinda had to shut down I was still able to come to the building, because we had very few people in the building and all the protocols were fine. Then when we had to record some sessions and stuff, we’d Zoom in, but I was literally in the same building as they were in a back room hiding, and recording their lines, and stuff. It never really changed for me. It’s been pretty much the same. I guess, I’m the most lucky, because I have my own office. I control everything. If there was a moment where shut down had to happen and stuff I said to my staff, “None of you guys come in. You’re fine. You’ll get paid.” Or whatever. “Work from home, but I’m definitely not going to be trying to work from home.” I tried, I really did. I was in a basement in, basically, a closet and my kids were upstairs running around all the time. Not too productive.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Not nearly as productive as being here.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah. I have to say, during COVID when my daughter had to stay at home, it was a bit of challenging. That’s for sure. Yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I end up doing a lot of tech support for their calls at schools than doing the editing I was supposed to be doing.

Sarah Taylor:
Totally. I think that’s a common theme. We have a few questions here. Gordon’s asking what we’re charging or if we’re charging for our home suites across Canada. I put mine into my day rate, because I’m always working for home. It’s not like per show. Certain companies, like the… I work with NFB will always pay a day rate plus the kit, which is great, but that doesn’t always happen. Yeah. It’s a bonus when I get it. Anybody else have any kit options?

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
No one wants to say.

Sarah Taylor:
Nobody. We don’t want to talk about money. That’s what our agents are for.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
It all depends on the budget too, right?

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Yeah.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
I think that here in Vancouver, it’s some people don’t pay anything, I’m sure. Some people pay a hundred dollars a week. Then I know that, I think, through the ACE practices and also IATSE, I believe that if you have a machine and you’re working from home, I think, it’s on average, they’re trying to get people to get at least $500 for the office and everything. Which is still a deal.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s for the whole production.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Per week, but I mean that’s on the bigger budget things. I’m not sure about any.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Yeah, that’s in Ontario that’s about the going rate. About 500 for the bigger budget shows. Anything smaller will just incrementally get less than that. Sometimes they go can you throw in your system? Depending on the show. Right? Five is probably the most that you can get. I think I got 550 once, but that was a really big budget show and they were like… That’s what the agent kind of –

Sarah Taylor:
Shout out to the agent.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I didn’t ask for it. I was like, “Oh, really? Okay, sure. You got it. Okay.”

Sarah Taylor:
I sometimes forget about the kit, the rental suite, the suite rental. When this last NFB thing they’re like, “Oh yeah. What’s your suite rate?” I was like, “Oh yeah. I should be charging for that.”

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
They break it down. It’s interesting, because they do break it down to not only your space, but your security, your internet, your utilities, your power, your…

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
If you’re in an office regularly, I don’t know, I should know, but I’m sure they’re paying more. It becomes sort of a fair and equity thing. Everything you don’t realize that you’re utilizing all the time.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah. Another question was the process of moving from an assistant editor to an editor.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I was very lucky. Like I said, I started off as an intern. Last three months of the school year they actually wanted to hire me, so I graduated early. And I was assisting with commercials, some comedy shows, and some docs, and stuff like that. Like I said, I got partnered up, because the senior editor didn’t want to work on a show for one week and that just skyrocketed from there.

Sarah Taylor:
You snuck right in.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah, snuck in.

Sarah Taylor:
It’s mine now.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I’ll do it. No sleep. Sure.

Sarah Taylor:
I’m young. I’m eager. That’s awesome.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
I always ask my assistant editors to cut scenes and I’ve got to be honest, I look at them and I have a feeling just the same way I have about what I’m looking at my own cuts. How they’re doing, whether they have an instinct for it. If they’re really good, I’ll just say, “You know what? This is what should be doing.” There are some assistant editors who are super happy doing what they do. They’re organizational geniuses and that they love doing that. But if I see someone who’s got real potential I will push them and say, “You know what?” Often it’s not their personality or some of them are super young. Like, “You have something.” I can see right away that they have an instinct. The way they lay out their tracks, the choices that they make, they do things that I didn’t expect, and I’m like, “You know what? You should do this more.” I will give them more and more scenes to cut and I will talk about them to the producers first. Oftentimes they’re totally surprised. They’re like, “Really, that’s good.” Everyone needs a leg up and everyone needs a little affirmation to know that they have that thing. The judgment or whatever. I try and find ways to give people opportunities, whether it’s cutting a previously on or, like I said, scenes that I haven’t gotten around to. Then we talk about them. That’s the key part is taking the time to talk about them and saying like, “Okay, so why did you choose that? Maybe, you could do this.” I find that so rewarding and they often love it. The post houses hate me, because I try and promote them and everyone needs assistant, good assistant editors. Yeah. If they’re into it, it shows right away.

Sarah Taylor:
Would you suggest an assistant… let the editor know ahead of time, “Hey, I’m really interested in cutting scenes if you have any available” or to put that…?

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Totally, absolutely. Yeah. I want to know. I want to know that that’s your interest. Like I said, some assistants, that’s not for them. They just don’t… it used to be when I startet…
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:50:04]
Annie Ilkow, CCE:
… it was like everyone wanted that, but it’s not necessarily the case now.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I have a thing I should interject, if it’s okay. Because I own a post house, I’ve employed some people over the years as assistants for me and for other people too. And one thing I’ve did really early on was a Lego test. I give them a kid Lego and I make them put it together and time them and see how accurate they were, and then I found that some of my interns that did it well were bang on great assistants.

Sarah Taylor:
Would they get Lego with instructions?

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yep, with the instructions.

Sarah Taylor:
Because I’m not good at creating my own Lego images, but I could work on the one with instructions. I’m like, I don’t know how my feelings with the test.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
You would think you would, but I’ve given them little spaceships, Star Wars stuff, and the power supplies are backwards, the roof doesn’t close, all sorts of weird stuff and just little details and you start figuring out who’s got attention to detail.

Sarah Taylor:
So everybody who’s an assistant editor on this call, be sure to practice your Lego skills and then Jeremy will give you a job, he’ll know.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I also do the same test, so that sets the bar.

Sarah Taylor:
I love it.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I’ve only had one assistant ever be better than me on one test.

Sarah Taylor:
So next time we have a call, we’ll supply the same Lego kit to all the editors on this call and we’ll just do a Lego test.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
If you could see my room and the amount of Lego in here, I think you guys might all lose.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I love everything that Annie said because I completely follow that kind of train of thought. When I land on a show, I ask and I determine what kind of assistant they are. Are they the kind of assistant that’s a career assistant, love career assistants, or are they the assistant that wants to move up into the chair? As soon as I find out they are, then I’m one of those guys because I had really strong mentors. And so, I only find it fitting that I need to be a strong mentor to anybody that I’m working with. And so, because of that, I seek them out and I go and I encourage them. I do exercises with my assistants where I go, “Okay, I’m about to cut this scene, you cut it too. And then when you’re done let me know and let’s watch both of ours together and talk about.” And we’ll do that and I’ll find things that they’ve done that, “That’s great. I’m stealing that if you don’t mind.” Or sometimes I’ll go, “Okay, see. There’s this look. What do you think about this look that I used?” And they’re like, “Oh my gosh, I never thought of that.” So it makes them think about how to cut, not just cutting and how to look for performances. I look for pacing and all that. And if I work with the same assistant on another show, they maybe move up, then I start giving them scenes. And I say, “This is your scene.” When the director has notes, you are doing these notes and they’re yours. And I don’t hide the fact that they are, I tell the director, I go, “By the way, my assistant cut this,” and they love it. They’re like, “Really? Cool.” And then they take ownership and they go, can you tell them to…” And then all of a sudden, as an assistant, when they watch it on air, they watch it on the screens in the theater, they know that’s their work that’s up there. And to give that encouragement and that support I think is really important. But it is hard to make that transition and you just have to be very, as an assistant, make it known. I don’t think you should ever be scared to tell them what your ambitions and your passions are because if they don’t know, then they won’t be able to help you then.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
That’s true.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
And then just that question, do you have more than one assistant on each project? Or is it mostly one assistant, in terms of your guys’ teams?

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
If it’s a feature, it’s usually one assistant. I’d be lucky. And we’re trying to change things here in Ontario, where we have a more complete roster in terms of the crew, where we have a trainee and all that. If it’s series, especially if it’s a bigger TV series, usually they will have two firsts, a second and a trainee.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Nice.

Sarah Taylor:
And they’re working amongst all the editors on the series?

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
For the most part. I like all hands on deck. Although I did work on Killjoys where there were two first assistants and they focused on one editor, and the other assistant would work with another editor at the same time. That’s a bit harder because then they’re spread thin, I think, because not only are they doing what you need done, but they’re also doing what the department needs done, so it’s a bit trickier for them to manage. But I like all hands on deck where everybody’s just like, “Can you do this? You pick this up and do script sync on that one, while I do this bin and all that.” That’s great.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Because that’s what I find for us in Vancouver, we’re lucky to get. Usually you’ll have one assistant, if you’re on a series, you’ll have two, hopefully, but we rarely have a second assistant position. And we rarely have a visual effects editor. So the opportunity, when I started, it was back in the day when they were still shooting on film and you would have three first assistants, two seconds, a production assistant, and a whole other visual effects team. And since that time, over the years, it’s becoming less and less and less and less. The coordination side of things has gotten bigger it seems, but the editorial teams are, it’s just you and your assistant. And it is, I find, a lot of times, the assistants are so run ragged doing everything that there’s no time to have them cut. I’ll say, “Do you want to cut?” And they’re like, “When am I going to cut? I can’t.” And it’s a luxury now to have them come in and watch cuts. It’s a real issue here I find, but in my words of wisdom to somebody who’s an assistant that wants to cut as everybody else, let people know, let everybody know, and try to cut as much as you can. And back in the day when I was learning, I wasn’t allowed to touch the machines because it was heavily unionized and I’d had to come in on the weekends or late at night to figure them out and to play with stuff. And now I just find it so tragic because we’re all connected, all the materials there. I would kill to be able to learn that way now because that’s what I would do. I would come in on the weekends and not look at what the editor had done and start cutting my own scene and then I’d get it all done. I think it was really great. And I’d be like, “Oh my God, let’s see what…” And then I’d go into the bin and find out how the editor cut it, and I would look at it and go, “Oh my God.” And I would just do that constantly and it was fascinating because you could compare stuff and it forced you to see things completely differently than… and you were just so… That’s how I learned.
And then, the editors would find out that I was doing that, and then they’d have conversations and certain editors were more giving of their time and discussions, which was fantastic, but I do find now it’s really tough because our assistants have no time. We all don’t have any time. Everything’s just go, go, go, go. And I just thought with COVID, I thought, “Oh great, they’re going to give us more time. The schedules are going to get more relaxed. We’re going to get more help,” because we need more help. Because that hasn’t unfortunately happened in my experience, it’s the same schedules.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Are you guys finding that the lab is doing less of the work and your assists are doing a lot of the syncing and stuff like that? Or is it different for you guys? Because I am the lab and my own team, my team, but doing all that stuff. But I know that some people, they rely on the lab to provide them with all the files on the drive and they just start cutting and labeling and going from there. So your assists might be busy, are they loading footage, raw data, converting it, transcoding, applying LUTs, stuff like that, or are you finding that they’re just busy with keeping up with notes and all the other-

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Here, it depends on the budget of the show. The lower budget Hallmark shows, the assistants, they’ll hire somebody to come in at night to do the syncing. The things that the bigger budget shows, like the one I’m on now, the facility will do that for us. So the assistants are strictly receiving the synced material and are bending them and grouping them and preparing them. So in our experience in Vancouver, it’s totally budget based.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
In Ontario, very much so there’ll be shows where the assistants are managing and transcoding and syncing, but then there’s the bigger shows where the lab does it and then the assistants just gets everything and bins, and then they organize and they prep everything in the avid for the editor.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Generally here, it’s always the lab that preps everything, even on docs and low budget stuff. Yeah, it’s good because there’s plenty, like we were saying, there’s plenty for the assistants to do otherwise already.

Sarah Taylor:
And Edmonton, or for me, some shows will say, “Okay, you can have an assistant.” And then I’ll be like, “Yay.” And then recently I’ve just been like, “Okay, I’m going to just hire you to do this for me because I’m busy on this other project, so can you sync and organize my footage?” And it’s been working great, but I’m just going out and doing that because I want to save my time. And so, assistants are important. Thank you, assistants. Thank you a lot.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Especially nowadays too, for all of us, I find that the expectation with less time to do it, fully temp scored, fully sound designed, fully temp visual effects. It’s like a massive undertaking. And there’s two of us.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
That’s right. In Montreal, we don’t really have that American sort of structure of first and second assistants. It’s just like everyone does everything and everyone pitches in. And some people just like, it’s just their… It’s luck of the draw. Someone happens to know After Effects, someone happens to be really great with music or sound effects or whatever. And then so you just go like, “oh, okay, you.” And that’s when division of labor happens kind of that way. It’s just a bit random, but that’s Quebec, it’s very not hierarchical. It’s just all hands on deck. So that’s the way it works here. But it’s not something you want to rely on, but that’s generally the way it works.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
I miss the hierarchy, in terms of training opportunities, because it’s a real shame that we… That’s how you learn. You learn by watching, you learn by seeing what other people do and you get that experience that when the assistants were busy, they’d throw the second assistant, “Okay, you do this temp score, can you figure out this visual effect?” And it would be, we’d be so exciting. It’d be like, “Oh my God, I could do something other than paperwork.” And it’s sad because I think a lot of people are being thrown into, especially now, thrown into situations where they’re not prepared and they’re not trained. And it can backfire, obviously, for everybody’s sake. And so, I think it really, and especially now that we are working more remotely, the people are saying it’s even harder to get learning opportunities. And I think that’s something that we really have to be aware of and figure out a way to work, because it’s our future and things seem to get busy, but we need to really look at the…It shouldn’t always and it’s this whole thing we’re all going through right now with this horrible incident that happened in the States on the set of Rust, where there’s a definite hierarchy for a certain reason. And traditionally, that hierarchy has been, sometimes it’s for safety, sometimes it’s for respect, sometimes it’s for communication, sometimes it’s for politics. There’s many, many reasons why this hierarchy, over time, has been the way it’s always been. And to lose that now because of budget, if we aren’t careful, it’s going to really impact our ability to work properly and to serve the client’s needs, which are huge, big studio, sometimes, expensive things if they aren’t getting what they want.
So it really would be my plea somehow to say to producers and people who are in charge of budgets to really not look at being a hero to save money, 5 cents, to look good for the production. When in fact if you spent more and supported your team and trained people so that we can work together towards the future where we all learn and we all… how I was privileged to have come up the ranks of that system, it would just make this world a better place, and it would be less stressed and more happy people.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah, totally.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
And better creativity, I think too. You got more minds working on it. It’s just going to get better.

Sarah Taylor:
Well, that kind of brings into another question. Our working conditions, our working hours, what is it like? In our different areas of the world… Of course, in light of what happened on the set of Rust and with IATSE and the States wanting to strike, how are things in your world? For me, luckily, because I’m working by myself and my house. I do an eight-hour day. I don’t push myself… sometimes it’s only six hours, depending on where my creativity is that day. But as long as I meet my deadlines and get things done, I’m okay. I had to learn to do that. I had to force myself to be like, these are my working hours, so I need to make sure that I can try to learn how to be creative in these hours and not burn the candle or whatever they say, midnight oil, because I have a young family. So for me, once that happened, I like, “I can’t do this.” I can’t function as a human working 10 to 12-hour days and then trying to be a mom. So I made that choice, but I know that’s not the choice that’s easy, that can be made by many other people. So I’m curious, how does it work in the other parts of Canada?

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Work-life balance is so important to me, presently. I used to be one of those guys, years ago, where it was like, I’ll work as long as I can, hours upon hours to get the work done. But then, you slowly realize, or you get better at actually being more productive in the shorter amount of time. And then, once I had a family, I was like, “I can’t do that anymore.” So what I started doing was actually going into work super early, like you know 6, 6:30, so that by the time everybody starts rolling in, I’ve done half the stuff that I needed to do for that day. So I’m less stressed and I can leave when… there’s still going to be late nights, there’s still going to be a cut is due, and I’m a bit behind and that’s still going to happen. But I try to make sure that that’s not every day, and as long as it’s not… and I get to see my family at the end of the day and chill and relax and then go in the next morning, that’s really important. I think that eventually everybody should strive for that ideal.

Sarah Taylor:
I think that those conversations we’re having more, where we’re like, “We need to be human,” and I feel like something I always like to share with younger editors is that you need to bring life to your edit suites too. You’re telling stories about life, but if you’re not living life, then… you need to be part of life too. And so, I think that’s really important. And also the morning times. It’s probably super nice to go into the office, it’s quiet, nobody’s there usually that early. I would get so much work done if-

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I love it. I was always a night owl until I had kids. Then I was like, “Okay. Forget that.” And it’s great leaving early in the morning because the kids aren’t up yet, so you get to sneak out.

Sarah Taylor:
There’s no traffic, probably, that’s pretty sweet.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Exactly.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s awesome.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
My routine is, I get up at seven and get my kids off to school, and then I’m in the office at 9 and I don’t leave until maybe 12 at night. But that’s not because I’m editing the show necessarily, it’s also because I’m trying to run a business and do other things here. And sometimes I’m just in the office taking a few hour breaks, watching movies and TV shows to just be a little bit more aware of what’s going out there and stuff. And because I cut predominantly comedy, I try to watch comedy from all over the world as much as possible just to get a sense of what other people might think is funny. So that keeps me busy. And then the weekends are totally my family time. That’s it. No emails, no phone calls, unless the building’s burning down.

Sarah Taylor:
I just want to quickly, as a sidebar, what’s the most recent thing comedy wise you’ve watched from somewhere else in the world that you were like, “That’s great.”

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Oh, okay. It’s going to make me sound like a weirdo, but I do watch a lot of weird shows. There’s this thing called Last One Laughing on Amazon Prime, and it started off in Japan. And then there’s been an Australian, and a German, and Italian, and Spanish, and Mexican one, and Indian one. I’ve watched every different country’s versions. I just finished watching the second season of the German one, and it’s ten comedians locked in a room for six hours, where they try to make each other laugh, but if they laugh, they get voted out and the last one at the end wins all the money.

Sarah Taylor:
I love it.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
That’s awesome.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
And actually, there’s supposed to be a Canadian one that Jay Baruchel is rumored to be hosting, but I don’t think they’ve shot it yet. And that’s something I’d like to work on, or at least maybe get one of the Trailer Park Boys on, see if they can survive.

Sarah Taylor:
I would not.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
I was just going to say that I think, for people to keep in mind is to know your worth and take care of yourself. Because, as a younger person, I didn’t do that. I didn’t know my worth, I didn’t know that somebody asked you to do something you kind of felt was inappropriate, you just did it because it was like, “Oh my God, I’ll never work again.” And I guess now I’m just starting now, as old as I am, to have a confidence to say, “No, this isn’t right. I’m not being treated right.” So saying no sometimes can be a good thing. And it’s taken me a long time to learn that. And I think if more of us do that, I think it might be a better working conditions for everybody. So does this really have to go out tonight?
Does it really? Or can this wait till tomorrow? Because I’m very aware of schedules, I’m very responsible, I work very hard. But I think there’s a certain point where you have to let… and I try to, when I’m working with directors or producers, they say, “We need to get this done.” I have to say to them, “Look, let’s bring the assistant in and let’s find out how long this is going to take, and how late in the night is that assistant going to be here to make sure that this gets out. And are you really wanting this assistant to stay till X amount of time?” And I involve the assistant so that they can say… we block it out. Because I think people don’t real… a lot of people don’t have a clue what we do, and they certainly don’t know what assistants do, and they certainly don’t know how long it takes.
So when they ask for things, and things happen, like they always happen, magically in post. And I find that when I bring people in and have that discussion, that directors and producers will go, “Do the best you can.” There’s leeway, but you can not guilt them into it, but go, “Guys, how important is this?” And I don’t think a lot of people do that. And I do think that I wish that, again, as a collective whole, we start doing that, because it can wait for the most part.

Sarah Taylor:
Well, there’s moments where it’s like, is the broadcaster actually going to watch this on Friday at five in the afternoon?

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Exactly.

Sarah Taylor:
They’re not going to watch it till Monday.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
I’m on the wrong show to be asking this question right now.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s reality though, it’s the reality of lives. What’s it like everywhere?

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
I really love what everyone’s been saying, but it is the kind of show where none of those things apply. There’s two different situations. One is where you’re like, “I’m not going to let this go out until it’s as good as it can possibly be.” And then there is like, “I am here for 10 extra hours because of someone else not doing their part.” So those are the difficult ones, for sure. But I do try and find, some days I’ll work 16 hours, but some days I’ll work four and I’ll leave. So I find my ways to make it feel equitable, but sometimes you’re working with people who have zero consideration for what happens downstream. And that’s just the way it is.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
And that happens a lot. That does happen a lot.

Sarah Taylor:
We touched a little bit on it, both, I believe Annie and Roderick have worked out of their district, you could say. But Lee had asked, how did you manage the tax credit thing? What has everybody’s experience been working in other areas of the world?

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Well, I was working on a co-pro, I guess it was co-pro where I was working in LA, but I was being paid by a Canadian company. And that’s how that worked out. And then I was hired by a BC company to do MOW, and then last year I did a co-pro with France. So I spent a month there, but that was it. In terms of the structuring of the finances, it was a little of this, a little of that, but generally still, it’s mostly the Quebec tax credit that determines my gigs for sure.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I’m fairly new to working out of Ontario. I haven’t actually started the BC show yet, that’s in a couple of weeks. But in the end, it’s like if they want to hire somebody outside of their province, then it’s their purview to lose whatever tax credit they want for that talent that they’re trying to get in. So I think that was what happened to me. I’m not sure what the distinction that was. And as everything everybody’s been saying, it’s been easier, or more acceptable, to do that now. I think people are looking outside of their bubble in terms of where they’re at to really try to find the best possible people for the job. To Jeremy’s point, I do support, and wish, that they did actually start for where they are and start looking. And if there’s nobody there, then start looking elsewhere. But I feel like I’m a bit of… I feel guilty because I worked on Chapelwaite, which is shot in Nova Scotia, but then posted in Toronto. I’m working on Billy the Kid, which is shot in Calgary now.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Cool.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s cool though. That’s great.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
The thing is, but it’s not as if they’re like, “We’re going to shoot here, and then we’re going to find somewhere else.” I think it’s different. I think they find the servicing production or where they want to base their post and then they go, “Where do we want to shoot?” I think sometimes it’s the other way. So they’ve settled into where their home base is and then they find the location that fits their genre, their project.

Sarah Taylor:
Or there’s a comfort, they’ve worked in that production house before and so this is where we’re going to go back.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Exactly. And then, from the LA thing to going up to BC and then going, “Well, I want to go home and cut.”

Sarah Taylor:
I want to spend eight months cutting in my home instead of-

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Exactly. So it’s challenging.

Sarah Taylor:
And I think with remote editing, now, we’re figuring out, there’s lots of great software out there that we can do remote sessions with. The opportunities could open up. For me, I’ve worked with a company out in Italy during COVID, but they were specifically like, “We want to do this project that’s kind of COVID related and we want to work with editors from around the world.” So they went out and looked for people from different places. And so they had an editor in Australia, they had me in Canada, they had somebody, I think, somebody from the States.
I think the opportunities can be there. It’s just how we get our names out into the international market. How do we make people know that we exist, and like Annie’s saying, that we actually can edit. We’re not just, “Not at all.” And I don’t know in Canada being… I don’t know what they would think we’re doing like that. We watch Netflix, we watch all the same shows, we understand the pop culture references. I think that’s interesting. And another question I had was… other than the CCE, because this is the best editing organization in Canada, are there any other local organizations that you are part of or have been part of in the past that has helped you in your career or in your creative journeys?
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:15:04]
Sarah Taylor:
… in the past that has helped you in your career or in your creative journeys?

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I’m involved … within the DGC in Ontario, a bunch of us editors have gotten together actually, and formed our own little, not official DGC, but a BIPOC diversity and inclusion committee that we actually have this … we started it back in April when lockdown started, and this all has to do with diversity inclusion training, building crews, building stronger crews within Ontario through either courses and training and mentorship and all that stuff. Organizations like that exist, and I know that the CCE does their own mentorship thing too, as well. And also there’s other organizations like that in Toronto, like the BIPOC Film & TV, where you can join up and be a part of a community that’s all headed towards the same goal of trying to be successful and support each other in doing that. So there are lots of organizations like that, that you can network and meet people and make connections, and then down the line work on stuff together.

Sarah Taylor:
There’s one in Alberta called Creatives Empowered, and it’s another BIPOC organization specifically for creatives in all arts. And they started up probably around right after COVID hit. And they’ve been doing lots of really great things here. And then my last question, what are you working on right now? And what might be coming out soon for us to watch? I have a request for Lisa to tell me when Zombies 3 is going to be released, because my daughter’s very excited and wants to know, will there be Zombies number four?

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Well, I guess I’ll go, because I’m currently working on Zombies 3 and we just got our test screening notes back. They don’t have an air date, but it’ll be sometime, I think in the spring of next year. And you know what? I can’t say. But I think it will be hopeful that it will go on-

Sarah Taylor:
Excellent.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
In some way, shape, or form. Yeah, it’s a really fun… I got to say, it’s such an amazing… The cast is incredible. These young people are so talented and they do everything, they sing, they dance, they do their own stunts, they’re funny, they’re dramatic. And they have a really great chemistry. They have a whole new people that have come in and they all click so well. I’m so blown away, because I don’t know what I was doing at their age, but it certainly wasn’t… I’m just blown away by the talent that is there.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s great. Well, we’ve watched Zombies 1 and 2 on repeat for quite some time, well, I quite enjoyed it.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
And the music, the music’s incredible.

Sarah Taylor:
I think it’s so fun.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Yeah, it is.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah. I don’t mind sitting down and watching it with her, so I was like, “Yeah, I’m talking to the Zombies editor today.” She’s like, “What?” So you’re a rockstar in our house.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Wow.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
I didn’t realize, it’s very popular. Apparently it’s a huge hit worldwide too, so it’s-

Sarah Taylor:
Oh, that’s great.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
And then I’m going to start on hopefully, a series called Reginald the Vampire. So I’m going from zombies to vampires.

Sarah Taylor:
I love it. That’s great. Jeremy, what’s up for you?

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I just finished a show that was based off of a Facebook and YouTube group called Tracy and Martina. They’re two Cape Bretoners that are basically like Jersey Shore Cape Bretoners in a way. And that’s a weird comedy to work on, because I am in Nova Scotia and I do know a lot of Cape Bretoners, but there’s some things that they’re saying that are just, it’s a different language, it’s a different universe. And then of course, I do whatever trailer park stuff the guys do, because they own their own website. So they do podcasts weekly and their own little series and stuff, and yeah, that keeps me busy.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Jeremy, what’s your post-production facility called?

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Digiboyz.

Sarah Taylor:
Oh, I like it.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Digiboyz.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
All right.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
That makes sense.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s right, it does.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
It was because way back in the day, I started it with Clattenburg.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
And we were at a coffee shop and he’s like, “Yeah, let’s start a post house.” And I’m like, “Uhhh.Okay.” I think I was 20 at the time.

Sarah Taylor:
Wow.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
That’s amazing.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah. And that’s the name we came up with because of Trailer Park Boys.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s so good.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I’m just wrapping up Billy the Kid, just waiting for my final notes before I lock. And then I’m starting that BC show, which is a CBC mini-series called Bones of Crows. It’s a five part mini series, it’s about residential schools. And yeah, so I’ll be working remotely for the first time for a while during the winter. And then in January I might see you, Lisa, because I’ll be over there for about two months.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Oh, that’s cool.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Yeah. And then still working out there and then-

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
And the best time of year to be in Vancouver.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Yes, that’s what everybody says, and they’re all trying to sell me on it, and it’s going to be awesome. And I’m so looking forward to it, because I’ve always wanted to be out west. So yeah, I’m very, very looking forward to it.

Sarah Taylor:
And Annie, I have to say, I watched the first episode of Ghosts. I quite enjoyed it.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
It’s a very cute show. I have to say, it’s really fun and working on comedy as a lot of you know, is just the most demanding and surgical and precise kind of editing that you could do. And it’s wonderful for your chops. It’s been really great working on that show. And the writers are very funny and it’s a sweet show. The cast is… it’s like a big cast, and they’re all at the top of their game, so it’s a very fun show to do. I’ve got a few more episodes on that. And then Transplant just got renewed for season three, so I’ll be doing that sometime in the new year.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Which is a great series.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Thank you. Thank you very much. Really, that’s wonderful to work on. Joseph Kay, the creator is just like a dream to work with. He really appreciates editing. And again, the performances are really great. And there’s a little gap in the middle there, but it seems like there’s a lot of stuff happening in town, so I’m hopeful. I’m hopeful. Let’s see.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s great. For myself, I’m working on a lifestyle TV series called Rodeo Nation, and it’s about indigenous rodeo in Alberta.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Oh, cool.

Sarah Taylor:
And that’s been super fun. And I just wrapped on a CBC version of a doc called The Last Baron, which is about a burger joint called the Burger Baron, and it is run by Lebanese immigrants. And so we’re now expanding it into a feature film, which was going to be called the Lebanese Burger Mafia.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Oh, great.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Excellent.

Sarah Taylor:
And yeah, we found that with the 46 or 44, whatever, 30 that we had to tell the story was not enough time. There was so many amazing stories of the journey these people made to come to Canada, and so we’re going to expand on that. And the filmmaker is the son of a Baron, so his dad owned a Burger Baron when he was growing up. So he decided to investigate, “Well, where did this come from? Why are all these Burger Barons owned by Lebanese families? What is happening?” So we unpacked all that. So that’s on CBC Gem if you want to learn about burgers. And then promptly eat a burger, because it’s very tasty looking at all that stuff. So then I’ve eaten a lot of Burger Baron in the last few months.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
For research purposes.

Sarah Taylor:
Yes, totally. And actually, I went to Burger Baron on Saturday, and the owner who’s in the doc was serving me, so I said to my daughter, “Hey, that’s the guy that’s in the documentary I worked on.” And she’s like, “Are you going to tell him that?” I was like, “Yeah, probably.” And so I said, “Hey,” and he’s like, “Oh my goodness.” And then he wanted to buy us something. Anyway, it was so sweet. And I’m like, “I know everything about you and you know nothing about me.”

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
“You have no idea who I am.”

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah, “I’m this strange random blonde lady.” So yeah, they were all very sweet people, and yeah, it’s been fun.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Annie, did they improvise quite a bit on Ghosts?

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Not at all.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
That’s good. Oh, really? Why?

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Well, no, that’s not true. They improvised a lot and we didn’t use any of the ad libs. Yeah, no, there was a writer on set, and so they tried stuff, but generally I would say maybe 5% of the ad libs survived into the cut, yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Is that show based on a UK show?

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
That’s right.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah, okay.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
The BBC show is in the second season only, and CBS bought it and remade it with most of the same characters, but a few sort of more American…

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Americanized, yeah.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
They do that with everything.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Yeah, basically. Basically, yeah. But the two creators, very smart guys, very funny guys. They did New Girl and they’re really sharp and they have a good crew. But the actors are really amazing. And the crew in Montreal is spectacular. They rebuilt the whole house that they had made, that was a set in LA and they made it here in Montreal, and it looks amazing, I think, better than the pilot. So yeah, it’s really, really good.

Sarah Taylor:
Farid is asking, “What software did you train on before applying for jobs?” He says, “I heard Premiere for small productions and Avid for big ones. What do you suggest?” I cut Premiere, but I’ve worked on all of them. I think it’s good to know all of them.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Yeah, I think that’s my advice, is know as much as you can. There’s always, “Avid’s the best,” or “Premiere is the best.” But for me, it’s like, no, it’s all going to churn out the same exact product, it’s you, it’s you that’s pressing the buttons, and that’s what creates the magic. But the more you know and feel comfortable about different software and different platforms, the better you’ll be when you do get a job. And you might not know everything about Avid, but at least if you’re familiar with it, then you can learn it. If you’re Premiere Pro proficient and you dive into Avid, you’ll learn what that language is and then you’ll pick it up and then away you go. So just don’t be intimidated by different technologies and things like that.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Yeah, I think Premiere is great for productions that are sort of all in the box, so it’s really good to know that, especially if you’re starting out and you’re trying to build your reel and you’re going to be the whole show. Avid, it’s just for big series and stuff, it’s just a much more solid platform in terms of the file management and everything. It’s just for me, much more reliable.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
When I’m on a scripted, I’m on Avid, when I’m on docs, I’m on Premiere. That’s the way I like to work. Although with Script Sync, I want to try Avid and docs using that…[inaudible 01;30;03;23]

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I’m going to blow all your minds.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Oh yes.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I cut Final Cut Pro.

Sarah Taylor:
No.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Oh, no.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
And I have forever.

Sarah Taylor:
Final Cut X or whatever it’s called?

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Seven?

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Ten?

Sarah Taylor:
Ten?

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
X, yeah. Nope.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Seven.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Seven, I started with it-

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah, I was a seven before too.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Me too.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I started when it was a Beta, and then I went to all the way up to X. And I do have Avid, I do have Premiere, and I do have DaVinci.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
But I’m way faster in Final Cut.

Sarah Taylor:
Okay. Tell us, why did you stay? Not that it’s bad, I’m just curious.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Why?

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Why did I stay in it?

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Annie, why?

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah, I know it’s gotten better. Obviously, I haven’t tried it.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Well, there definitely are limitations and stuff, but when they introduced roles in Final Cut, that just sealed it for me, because I could do multiple outputs and just from one timeline turn off the other roles, and they’re just gone, done. And for me, the turnaround is much faster with our workflow and stuff.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
That makes sense.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
The Premiere has a lot of things going for it, but I also don’t like paying for software over and over and over. I have one account and everyone’s using that Final Cut, and I haven’t had to pay for Final Cut ever since I bought X way back in the day.

Sarah Taylor:
Right.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
And now it’s like $300 or something. It’s really cheap.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
That’s what it was when I bought it.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Okay. Yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
And it’s what? I don’t know. I think when-

Sarah Taylor:
That was 10 years ago, I feel like. It was a long time ago.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah, I think so.

Sarah Taylor:
Wow.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
But when I was starting out, I was on Media 100.

Sarah Taylor:
Me too.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Wow. I loved that.

Sarah Taylor:
You had two tracks.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah, the limitation, and then you’d export stuff-

Sarah Taylor:
You had two tracks and-

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
And bring it back into the graphics stack to get it burnt…[inaudible 01;31;53;09].

Sarah Taylor:
There was no nesting or… What I remember when I found Final Cut, I think it was on Final Cut 3 and I’m like, “99 tracks of video.” And now I’m like, “Two tracks. I only use two tracks when I clean it up.” But yeah, oh, Media 100.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:
Amazing.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
So yes, I am using Final Cut, and I do pass it off to people onlining and sometimes I online my own stuff in DaVinci.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah, so they worked out those kinks, kind of?

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Not all of them.

Sarah Taylor:
Or you figured out the workaround?

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah. Which we do, I think we do in all of the softwares, there’s like, “Oh, it doesn’t do that, but I can do it this way.”

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
That’s right. Or you buy a third party program, that maps it out.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah, Automatic Duck.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s what I used to use.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I haven’t used that in a while, but yeah, I remember Automatic Duck.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s how I talked to the Avid when I was on Final Cut Pro.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
That’s right.

Sarah Taylor:
I love it. Is there one project or series or something that you’ve worked on in your career that has left a real lasting impression on you as a human or as an editor?

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Good or bad impression?

Sarah Taylor:
Both. That could be… Yeah, take it in that direction. Why not? “I’ll never work with so-and-so again, because of this project.”

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
There was a director who would work with me, and when he wanted me to make a cut, he punched me in the arm.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
What?

Sarah Taylor:
That’s awful.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
And that is definitely not a person I ever worked with again.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
No.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
There’s been directors who have like done the *snap* this and I stop. And I’m like, “Okay, no, that’s not happening. We’re not doing that.” But then they actually think that that’s okay, “Cut there.”

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Right now.

Sarah Taylor:
I had somebody who would stamp the desk, “Right here.”

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
And they don’t realize there is a lag, you might do that, but when I hit the keyboard, it’s not going to be right there.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
No.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:
Any positive ones? End it on a positive note. I’m just kidding, Jeremy, you gave us good stuff, [inaudible 01;33;50;29].

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
I probably have a positive one somewhere, I know. I loved working on Durham County. I got to say, it was probably the first time where I was like, “Ooh, Canadian TV could be really good.” It was dark and terrible and you hated all the characters. But at the same time, I felt like it was the first show that I ever worked on where it was close to my sensibility and we could really dig in. And the filmmakers were very daring and everyone was on board. That was very inspiring to work on that show.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I was a fan of that show when that aired. I loved it.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Oh, thanks. Cool.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
A highlight for me was working on a show called the L Word.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Oh, it was great.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Oh, yeah.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
The original series.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Right.

Sarah Taylor:
Oh, it was so good.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Awesome.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
I know it’s going back a few years, but when you’re working on something at the time, you kind of know it’s special. And I knew it was very special at the time, but as the years have gone further away from it, you look back going, “God, we were so fortunate to have that opportunity.” And just the filmmakers that we were introduced to that we would never in my lifetime, ever get a chance to meet and talk to and learn from. And it was treated very much like an independent film. The showrunner, Ilene Chaiken, she was really good about letting the directors have their cut, and it was a respected cut. It wasn’t like, “Okay, get out of the chair, next.” Which sometimes happens, as we all know. But it was a great filmmaking experience, and again, it was revolutionary for its time, now it’s not so much. But at the time it was incredible. And they had incredible-

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Absolutely.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Guests, appearances. It was iconic, and it was really a highlight for me.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Yeah.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
A highlight that I had, one of my most memorable ones was working on a documentary feature called David and Me. It was about, back in the eighties, a 16-year-old was convicted of murder and he was innocent. And so the director of the film befriended him, and as we were making his story, the director was actively investigating and trying to come up with new evidence to exonerate him. By the time our schedule ended, nothing new surfaced, so we had to end the film with him still in prison. And the film was released and the district attorney in New York City saw it and opened it back up, and a few months later he was released.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Wow.

Sarah Taylor:
Wow.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Not that it was the cause, not that it was the reason he was released, but they were like, “Okay, we got to look into this.” So they opened it up again and he became part of a series of all these wrongfully convicted kids back in the eighties that were then released. And actually the filmmakers went back, we shot his release and we recut the film with the new one at the end.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Oh, cool.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
So good.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Yeah, so that was really just amazing, and we got to meet him. And it was such a personal story for the director and just the investment that the ownership everybody had that was working on it. And Rubin Carter was in it too, “the Hurricane”.

Sarah Taylor:
Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Because he was a big champion of the guy. And yeah, so that was pretty special to be a part of.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
That’s when you’re making a difference.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
I think we all want to work on things that affect people’s lives.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I did have a positive note, it took me a while to figure it out.

Sarah Taylor:
Last one. Let’s do it.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Okay.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Jeremy.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
For me, it was working with Cory Bowles on Black Cop.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Oh, yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
That was the first dramatic thing that I cut in many, many years.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Oh, wow.

Sarah Taylor:
It was so good. You did such a good job.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Well, it’s a lot of him, you got to know that if you know Cory, right? But just working with him and the way he works and the synergy that we could have, no ego, that is the best kind of cutting for me.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
I’d love to have that on everything, where I do something, he does something, my assistant cut a scene that he watched it. It was just everyone’s in it to win it.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
That’s good stuff.

Sarah Taylor:
That’s the best one, when everybody’s egos are out of the game. We’re just there to create the best that the piece can be.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah, it feels so good. Feels so good. Well, on that note, thank you everybody for joining tonight. This has been an awesome conversation. And thanks for all the people here that asked questions, and I hope everybody took a little bit of something with them. And maybe one day soon we can all get together in real life.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
That would be great.

Sarah Taylor:
That would be amazing.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
I know.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Thanks.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
It was so nice talking to you guys.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
Yeah.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Yeah.

Roderick Deogrades, CCE:
It was great to meet all of you.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Yeah, really.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Getting different perspectives from across the country, which is really cool.

Sarah Taylor:
Yeah, yeah. No matter where you are, you can do it. You can get a job. Just put yourself out there. You can do it. Awesome.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Thank you, Sarah.

Sarah Taylor:
Okay.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
You did a great job.

Sarah Taylor:
Oh, thank you.

Jeremy Harty, CCE:
Thanks, Sarah.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Yes. Thanks, Sarah.

Sarah Taylor:
Bye everybody. Have a good night. Thanks, everybody. Bye.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
All right.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Good night.

Annie Ilkow, CCE:
Take care.

Lisa Binkley, CCE:
Thank you.

Sarah Taylor:
Thank you so much for joining us today, and a big thanks goes out to Annie, Jeremy, Lisa, and Roderick. Special thanks goes to Kimberlee McTaggart, CCE and Alison Dowler. The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall. ADR recording by Andrea Rusch. Original music by Chad Blain and Soundstring. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao.

The CCE has been supporting Indspire, an organization that provides funding and scholarships for indigenous post-secondary students. We have a permanent portal on our website at cceditors.ca. Or you can donate directly to indspire.ca, I-N-D-S-P-I-R-E dot C-A. The CCE is taking steps to build a more equitable ecosystem within our industry, and we encourage our members to participate in any way they can. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends to tune in. Till next time, I’m your host, Sarah Taylor.

[Outro]
The CCE is a nonprofit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member, please visit our website, www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

Subscribe Wherever You Get Your Podcasts

What do you want to hear on The Editors Cut?

Please send along any topics you would like us to cover or editors you would love to hear from:

Credits

A special thanks goes to

Jane MacRae

Chengzhi Jin

Hosted and Produced by

Sarah Taylor

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Original Music by

Chad Blain

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Sponsored by

IATSE 891

Categories
Members Past Events

EditCon 2022

EditCon 2022

EditCon 2022 in Review

"Editing is like a passion ... Discovering a whole new world you are going to be in."
Arthur Tarnowski, ACE
Editor, DRUKEN BIRDS

The CCE took the 5th annual EditCon online with two days of amazing panel talks, virtual breakout rooms, and networking for over two hundred attendees from Canada and around the world.

Presented under the theme “Brave New World,” we welcomed editors from the binge-worthy shows TED LASSO, BRIDGERTON and SORT OF, as well as some of this year’s blockbusters SHANG-CHI AND THE LEGEND OF THE TEN RINGS, ETERNALS and GHOSTBUSTERS: AFTERLIFE. Additional panels featured the editors from ALL MY PUNY SORROWS, SCARBOROUGH, DRUNKEN BIRDS and NIGHT RAIDERS (films that were all on the TIFF TOP 10 list!) as well as A CURE FOR A COMMON CLASSROOM and BETRAYAL.

It wouldn’t be EditCon without wrapping up the weekend with a good old-fashioned giveaway, thanks to prize donations from our generous sponsors. Afterwards, attendees mingled in a virtual networking world. 

Missed Attending Live?

Subscribe to our podcasts to be notified about future episodes featuring our EditCon 2022 talks.

Presented in English

Presented in French

2022 Panelists EditCon

DAY 1

"I emotionally react to performances and I try to cut faster with my intuition than my thoughts."
Michelle Szemberg, CCE
Michelle Szemberg, CCE
Editor, ALL MY PUNY SORROWS

THIS YEAR IN CANADIAN FILM

2021 has seen the film industry bounce back with a ferver hardly seen before. With it has come a wealth of powerful and diverse home grown stories, such as the poignant sibling drama ALL MY PUNY SORROWS; the brilliant and raw SCARBOROUGH; this year’s Canadian Oscar entry DRUNKEN BIRDS; and the gripping sci-fi thriller NIGHT RAIDERS. Join the editors behind the best that Canada has to offer as they talk storytelling in an intimate conversation.

Simone Smith-SQSimone Smith is an award-winning film and television editor based in Toronto. Past work includes FIRECRACKERS, GOALIE and NEVER STEADY, NEVER STILL. She recently finished work on the Amazon original series THE LAKE. She is currently editing the feature film FLOAT, starring Andrea Bang and Robbie Amell, for Lionsgate.

Orlee BuiumOrlee Buium is an editor with a passion for films with socially conscious content. She has 15 years of experience in the editorial department including assisting on KICK-ASS 2, THE EXPANSE and THE BROKEN HEARTS GALLERY. Her feature credits as an editor include QUEEN OF THE MORNING CALM (nominated for a DGC Editing Award), THE RETREAT (Showtime) and RUN WOMAN RUN. Most recently, Orlee locked picture on Michael McGowan’s latest feature ALL MY PUNY SORROWS, which premiered at TIFF 2021 as a Special Presentation.

Jorge Weisz, CCEJorge Weisz, CCE was born and raised in Mexico City and is currently based in Toronto. He has worked on award-winning films such as Peter Stebbings’ EMPIRE OF DIRT, which premiered at TIFF 2013, Michel Franco’s LAS HIJAS DE ABRIL, which won the Un Certain Regard’s Jury Prize at the 2017 Cannes Film Festival, and recently on Danis Goulet’s NIGHT RAIDERS, which premiered at the 2021 Berlinale. Currently, he is teaming up again with Christian Sparkes for the film SWEETLAND.

Michelle Szemberg, CCEAfter graduating from the film program at York University, Michelle worked for many years as an assistant editor. This allowed her to be mentored and collaborate with some of the leading forces in Canadian cinema. Her selected film and TV credits include, NATASHA, BELOW HER MOUTH, BETWEEN, UN TRADUCTOR (which premiered at the 2018 Sundance Film Festival) and NORTHERN RESCUE. Her latest film is the DGC Award winning ALL MY PUNY SORROWS, which had its premiere at TIFF in 2021.

Arthur TarnowskiArthur Tarnowski, ACE is a prolific editor whose work ranges from auteur cinema to popular comedies – with a penchant for action films. His feature credits span many genres and include DRUNKEN BIRDS, BEST SELLERS, THE DECLINE, THE HUMMINGBIRD PROJECT, THE FALL OF THE AMERICAN EMPIRE, THE TROTSKY, BRICK MANSIONS, DEADFALL, WHITEWASH and COMPULSIVE LIAR. His television work includes 19-2, BAD BLOOD, BEING HUMAN, MOHAWK GIRLS, THE MOODYS and VIRAGE. He has also created over 150 film trailers, including some of the biggest Box-office hits in his native Quebec.

Rich WilliamsonRich Williamson is an Oscar-shortlisted filmmaker based in Toronto. His work blends the best of fiction and documentary technique together with a focus on social-issue subjects. SCARBOROUGH is his first dramatic feature with partner and co-director Shasha Nakhai. It made its World Premiere at the 2021 Toronto International Film Festival, where it won the Shawn Mendes Foundation Changemaker Award, was 1st runner up for People’s Choice, and received an Honourable Mention for Best Canadian Feature.

"Let the characters feel what they're feeling and give them space to do that. We all fell in love with the characters and wanted to spend some time with them."
Melissa McCoy, ACE
Melissa McCoy, ACE
Editor, TED LASSO

Flipping the Script

The age of streaming has fully arrived. We’ve experienced a boom of top-notch shows, but how do you set yourself apart in such a crowd? Whether it’s bucking the trend of antagonistic conflict to create the arc of TED LASSO; using comedy to punctuate the lives of non-binary characters in SORT OF or reinvigorating period drama with the diverse world of BRIDGERTON, these shows prove that discarding past norms leads to success. Sit with the editors behind these phenomenal series as they discuss the ins and outs of their groundbreaking approaches to storytelling.

D. Gillian Truster, CCEGillian is a Toronto-based editor with a diverse career editing drama series, feature films, and MOWs in a variety of genres. She has had the good fortune of working with many prominent and celebrated producers, directors, and screenwriters. Gillian is best known for her work on ORPHAN BLACK, ANNE WITH AN E, and THE EXPANSE. She has won two CSA awards, a DGC award, and has earned twelve award nominations.

Melissa McCoy, ACEMelissa first fell in love with editing while studying film at Western Michigan University. She then made her way to California and earned a Master’s in Editing from Chapman University Dodge College of Film & Media Arts. In 2007 she earned a coveted internship with ACE, which jump-started her career. Melissa credits include the CW’s LIFE SENTENCE and WHISKEY CAVALIER on ABC. Her work on TED LASSO earned her an Eddie Award and an Emmy nomination in 2021.

Nona Khodai, ACENona Khodai is an Iranian-American Picture Editor stemming from Southern California. Her most recent credits include Marvel’s WANDAVISION and the Amazon series THE BOYS. Her past editing credits include REVOLUTION, COLONY, THE STRAIN, and AMAZING STORIES. She is currently working on another Disney + series that will be released sometime late this year.

Omar MajeedOmar Majeed is a Pakistani-Canadian writer, editor, and filmmaker. His editing credits include THE FRUIT HUNTERS, OMEGA MAN: A WRESTLING LOVE STORY, WORLD IN A CITY, INSIDE LARA ROXX, THE ARTISTS: THE PIONEERS BEHIND THE PIXELS and SORT OF. In 2018 he received a CSA for his work on THE ARTISTS and in 2001 for QUEERTELEVISION. Although he’s called many cities home including Montréal, Baltimore, and Lahore, Omar currently resides in Toronto with his wife and young child.

Jim Flynn, ACEJim Flynn is an American born Editor. He studied film at Emerson college in Boston. He then moved to Los Angeles where he began working as an Assistant Editor. Teaming up with Alan Heim on Nick Cassavetes’ ALPHA DOG he began his transition to Editor. He edited several more films with Cassavetes including MY SISTERS KEEPER and THE OTHER WOMAN. Most recently, Jim has been editing Netflix series, including THE HAUNTING OF HILL HOUSE and BRIDGERTON.

Sam ThomsonSam is a picture and animatic editor based in Toronto, with over a decade of experience in scripted storytelling. In addition to SORT OF, his credits include the award-winning series SAVE ME AND FOR THE RECORD, CORNER GAS ANIMATED, and animated specials for BLACK-ISH and ONE DAY AT A TIME. Sam is a proud member of the Director’s Guild of Canada, The Academy of Canadian Film and Television, and the Canadian Cinema Editors.

Breakout Rooms - Day 1

Breakout_Day1_Rose_HontiverosFast thinking, deep technical skill and knowing your shortcuts are just some of what is needed to be a great Assistant Editor. Join the Assistant Editors behind COMPANY TOWN, BIG BROTHER CANADA, SCARBOROUGH and THE PORTER to ask your questions, get some answers and have a great time.

Array Crew logoCreated by filmmaker Ava DuVernay and led by an all-women executive team, ARRAY Crew is a personnel database, to ensure that studio executives, department heads and producers are able to access a robust pipeline of qualified below-the-line women, people of color and those from underrepresented backgrounds to staff their television and film crews. ARRAY Crew is partnered with all of the major Hollywood studios and streamers and has recently expanded to Canada. Join ARRAY Crew’s Director of Industry Relations, Meredith Shea, for an exclusive conversation with Editing Crew Members and Studio Executives.

Breakout_Day1_SteeleAdobeTell richer stories and evoke a mood using some of the powerful color and effects tools in Adobe Premiere Pro. Join editor, director, and producer Christine Steele to explore filmmaking techniques that make your video look and feel more cinematic. Discover how to edit video to inspire emotion and hook the viewer.

In this session, you’ll learn how to:

  • Identify visual interest inherent in your footage so you can enhance it
  • Play with color, lighting, and motion techniques to create a mood or focus viewer attention
  • Add visual punctuation to lead or influence viewer perception

Breakout_Day1_TarnowskiJoin the veteran editor behind DRUNKEN BIRDS to discuss his latest film, answer your burning questions, and talk about all things editing. Arthur’s extensive experience spans almost 3 decades, and includes documentary & narrative film of all genres, television, shorts and trailer editing. Don’t miss this chance to pick the brain of a master of the craft. This panel will run in English but questions in French are welcome and encouraged.

Breakout_Day1_WeiszPull up a seat, bring your questions and settle in for a riveting conversation with the editorial maven of NIGHT RAIDERS. Jorge’s knowledge and passion for film is boundless; his storytelling expertise runs deep. His prolific work in feature films over the past eleven years has continuously brought one festival hit after another. This conversation is a must for those interested in narrative feature editing.

Breakout_Day1_Buium_SzembergSpend some quality time with the brilliant dynamic duo behind ALL MY PUNY SORROWS. Michelle and Orlee will answer all your questions about their processes co-editing this award winning film, which marks their second outing as co-editors. Between them these two share over thirty years of experience in post production, from assistant editing to editing, these two know it all. This is a conversation you won’t want to miss.

Breakout_Day1_Thomson_MajeedGet comfortable with two of the editors of SORT OF as Omar and Sam answer your questions, queries, and curiosities. These great minds have extensive experience editing television, documentary, animation, and much more. Dig deeper into their experiences working on this game changing series in this intimate setting.

Omar Majeed and Sam Thomson will only be available in Session 1. There will not be a 2nd session.

Breakout_Day1_WilliamsonEnjoy some time with the unique talent behind the breakout film, SCARBOROUGH, a film which Rich co-directed as well as edited. Rich has a deep understanding of documentary and short film. His latest film marks his first foray into editing fiction. Dive in, ask your questions, and get insights into the unique process behind this great film.

DAY 2

"I needed someone to help me push my own boundaries."
Brina Romanek (Mentee) Mentorship program 2020 CCE
Brina Romanek
Editor, A CURE FOR THE COMMON CLASSROOM

Learning from the Best

Documentary editing is a craft of perpetual learning. Not only do our tools change constantly, but so do approaches to storytelling. Mentorship has long been at the heart of developing the next generation of talent in all mediums, and documentary is no exception. It can be difficult for new and aspiring editors to gain access to the suite to sit, watch, listen, and learn the intangible skill of editing. Pull up a seat as two apprentices interview their mentors on their approach to storytelling, and the importance of passing the torch to the next generation.

Chris Mutton, CCEChris is a Toronto-based film and television editor. His credits include four films which premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival (TIFF) including EASY LAND, PORCUPINE LAKE, CLEO and SILAS. The film LUBA won the Audience Choice Award at the Canadian Film Fest and earned Chris a CCE award nomination. Chris’ television work includes four seasons of the Emmy nominated and CSA winning Hulu series HOLLY HOBBIE, CBC Gem comedy THE COMMUNIST’S DAUGHTER, and music documentary series ON THE RECORD.

Michèle Hozer, CCEWith two films on the Oscar shortlist, multiple award winning Michèle Hozer has been working as a filmmaker and editor since 1987. PROMISE TO THE DEAD picked up her first Emmy nomination and her co-directorial debut of GENIUS WITHIN: THE INNER LIFE OF GLENN GOULD was on the Oscar shortlist. In 2015 Michèle completed SUGAR COATED which won The Donald Brittain Award at the CSAs. Today Michèle is exploring new adventures in Prince Edward County as story editor on multiple projects including Buffy Sainte Marie’s feature length doc.

Michèle Hozer, CCE Ricardo has been working in the film industry for over 25 years. He has been awarded with an Emmy, and has been nominated several times to Genie, Gemini, CCE and CS Awards Ricardo came to Canada from his native Cuba in 1993, where he studied and worked at the world-renowned Cuban Film Institute in Havana. His outstanding work and keen sense of the human condition has contributed to the making of several award-winning and award-nominated films. Some credits include: 15 TO LIFE, MARMATO, THE SILENCE OF OTHERS and HERMAN’S HOUSE.

Brina RomanekBrina Romanek is a documentary filmmaker and editor. She has directed work for True Calling Media, RogersTV and CBC Short Docs. As an editor Brina has worked on films that have aired on Zoomer Media, Crave TV, The Travel Channel, TVO and CBC. Most recently, Brina had the honour of working with the team at Cream Productions to create the two part horror doc series BATHSHEBA. Brina is also the resident audio editor for the Indigenous Climate Action Podcast.

Jordan KawaiJordan Kawai is a documentary film editor based in Toronto. He has edited for both short form (BOAT PEOPLE) and feature documentary film (CHANNEL’S STAGE: THE CULINARY INTERNSHIP and BANGLA SURF GIRLS), as well as video installation (NOTES FROM THE UNDERGROUND). Jordan holds an MFA in Documentary Media Studies from Ryerson University and was a participant in the Mentorship program at the Montreal International Documentary Festival. His personal film work explores family lore and narratives of Japanese Canadian Internment.

"There are cultural biases that I need to be aware of, so I make sure I am not bulldozing a beat. Making sure every character has what they care about - their stakes - are clear, to make these people pop off the screen as real people so we can identify with them."
Nathan Orloff
Nathan Orloff
Editor, GHOSTBUSTERS: AFTERLIFE

Cutting for the Big Screen

Like it or not, the landscape of cinema is changing quickly. With more films at our fingertips than ever before, it’s becoming harder and harder to draw audiences to the theatres. But people still flock to the tentpole films that we all know and love. Join us behind the scenes as we chat with the editors of: SHANG-CHI AND THE LEGEND OF THE TEN RINGS, ETERNALS and GHOSTBUSTERS: AFTERLIFE as they take a deep dive into their workflows, share their tips on managing large teams and visual effects, and get into the nitty gritty of cutting for the big screen.

Sarah TaylorSarah Taylor is a multi-award winning editor with over nineteen years of experience. She has cut a wide range of documentaries, television programs, short and feature films. Sarah strives to help shape unique stories from unheard voices. Her work has been seen in festivals around the world including Sundance. She is a member of the Directors Guild of Canada (DGC), on the board of The Canadian Cinema Editors (CCE) and is the host of the CCE podcast The Editor’s Cut.

Elísabet Ronaldsdóttir, ACEElísabet Ronaldsdóttir was born and raised in Reykjavik, Iceland. She has edited over 40 feature films, television programs, and documentaries, as well as an animated feature film. Her editing work also includes active industry participation. She is best known for her collaborations with film directors David Leitch for JOHN WICK, ATOMIC BLONDE, DEADPOOL 2 and the upcoming film BULLET TRAIN. She recently partnered with director Destin Daniel Cretton on the Marvel film SHANG-CHI AND THE LEGEND OF THE TEN RINGS.

Nathan OrloffNathan Orloff is an American film editor and Chapman University graduate. Raised in Seattle, Orloff began his career at JJ Abrams’ BAD ROBOT Productions. His time there includes work as Associate Editor on 10 CLOVERFIELD LANE and Digital Intermediate Supervisor on STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS. Since his breakout, Orloff became a frequent collaborator with director Jason Reitman, notably cemented through TULLY and THE FRONT RUNNER. Orloff’s most recent work includes editing credits on PLAN B and GHOSTBUSTERS: AFTERLIFE.

Harry Yoon, ACEHarry Yoon is a Korean American editor based in Los Angeles. Yoon’s previous credits include SHANG-CHI AND THE LEGEND OF THE TEN RINGS, MINARI, EUPHORIA, THE NEWSROOM, DRUNKTOWN’S FINEST, HALF-LIFE, DETROIT, THE BEST OF ENEMIES and THE LAST BLACK MAN IN SAN FRANCISCO. Yoon has also worked as a VFX editor and assistant editor on ZERO DARK THIRTY, THE REVENANT, THE HUNGER GAMES, FOOTLOOSE, THE CRAZIES and LORD OF DOGTOWN.

Dylan Tichenor, ACEDylan Tichenor, ACE got his start in editing as an assistant on Robert Altman films including: THE PLAYER, SHORT CUTS, PRÊT-À-PORTER, KANSAS CITY, and as co-editor on the documentary JAZZ ’34. His credits as editor include: BOOGIE NIGHTS, MAGNOLIA, THERE WILL BE BLOOD, UNBREAKABLE, THE ROYAL TENENBAUMS, BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, THE ASSASSINATION OF JESSE JAMES BY THE COWARD ROBERT FORD, DOUBT, WHIP IT, THE TOWN, LAWLESS and ZERO DARK THIRTY. Recent projects include: PHANTOM THREAD, ANTLERS and ETERNALS.

Nat Sanders, ACENat Sanders, ACE has edited a range of acclaimed films such as MOONLIGHT, SHORT TERM 12 and IF BEALE STREET COULD TALK. He is a two-time winner of the Independent Spirit Award and was nominated for an Academy Award for his work on MOONLIGHT. SHANG-CHI AND THE LEGEND OF THE TEN RINGS marks his fourth collaboration with writer/director Destin Daniel Cretton, following his work on JUST MERCY, THE GLASS CASTLE and SHORT TERM 12. Other credits include: MEDICINE FOR MELANCHOLY, YOUR SISTER’S SISTER, HUMPDAY, GIRLS and TOGETHERNESS.

Breakout Rooms - Day 2

Breakout_Day2_WapikoniStories are powerful; they teach; they hold language, community and culture. They also tie the past to the present and the present to the future. Join Tania Choueiri and Elie-John Joseph from Wapikoni as they discuss narrative sovereignty and the importance of it within indigenous storytelling.

Please note that Session 1 with Wapikoni will be presented in FRENCH only.

Breakout_Day2_Cioni_AdobeFrame.io Camera to Cloud (C2C) enables footage to be delivered instantly from set to editorial. It’s a whole new way of working that lets everyone from editors to producers and other key stakeholders provide real-time collaborative feedback during production. In this interactive demo, you’ll learn how easily C2C enables production to automatically transmit proxies, audio, camera reports, and more — as soon as the Director calls “cut.” Once you use C2C, you’ll wonder how you worked any other way.

Breakout_Day2_TichenorJoin the two time Oscar nominated editor behind Marvel’s recent blockbuster, ETERNALS. With a career spanning 25 years there’s nothing Dylan hasn’t tackled. From BOOGIE NIGHTS; THE ROYAL TENENBAUMS; BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN and ZERO DARK THIRTY are just a few of the brilliant films from his back catalog. Bring your questions and grab your notebook, you’re going to want to take notes.

Breakout_Day2_RonaldsdottirBrace yourself for a thrilling question period with one of Hollywood’s go to action editors. Her work co-editing SHANG-CHI AND THE LEGEND OF THE TEN RINGS is her latest outing in her long run of action packed features including JOHN WICK; ATOMIC BLONDE and DEADPOOL 2 to name a few! If action is your thing this is a room you won’t want to miss.

Breakout_Day2_YoonGather your best questions and get ready for an amazing session with one of the co-editor’s of SHANG-CHI AND THE LEGEND OF THE TEN RINGS. Harry’s rock solid knowledge of editing such dramas as DETROIT, EUPHORIA and the Oscar nominated MINARI was instrumental in creating this film’s smashing success. Make sure you’re prepared to take in all you can from this rare talent.

Harry Yoon will only be available in Session 1. There will not be a 2nd session.

Breakout_Day2_Hozer_RomanekSit down with this mentor/mentee pair to answer your questions regarding all things mentorship. Learn more about their process and collaboration on A CURE FOR THE COMMON CLASSROOM, the importance of mentorship and much more.

Breakout_Day2_Acosta_KawaiPut on your thinking cap and bring your queries for this mentor/mentee pair. They’ll dig into your questions about how their mentorship relationship has evolved, how BETRAYAL came to be and all things mentorship.

EditCon 2022 Community Partners

CCE EditCon Raffle

Congratulations to our raffle winners!

With Thanks to Our Sponsors

Adobe EditCon 2021 Sponsor
Black Magic Design Logo Sponsor
Boris FX Logo Sponsor
IATSE 2018 Sponsor Event logo
JAM Post Logo Sponsor

Visit our Sponsor Showcase Page

Thank you to our board & volunteers:

CCE EditCon Committee:

Rick Bartram

Xi Feng

Stephen Philipson, CCE

CCE Communications Committee:

Pauline Decroix

Jennifer Kidson

Jane MacRae

Stephen Philipson, CCE

Sarah Taylor

Volunteers:

Kathryn Dickson

Jonathan Dowler

Jason Konoza

Isabelle Malenfant, CCE

Greg Ng

Janet Savill

Adam van Boxmeer

Thank you to our CCE Staff:

CCE Operations Manager:

Alison Dowler

CCE Communications Specialist:

Andreia Furtado

About EditCon

March 5-6, 2022

Online

Categories
Past Events

Editors Across Canada

Editors Across Canada
Nov 2, 2021

This event took place on November 2, 2021

Presented in English / Conférence en anglais

A conversation with Editors Across Canada. Join us on November 2nd as we invite editors from across Canada to talk about their process and how it can be different (or similar) based on where they live. Our guests will represent different backgrounds, lines of works and genres in the editing world.

Guests include Annie Ilkow, CCE (GHOSTS) from Quebec, Jeremy Harty, CCE (TRAILER PARK BOYS) from Nova Scotia, Lisa Binkley, CCE (ZOMBIES 3) from British Columbia, Roderick Deogrades, CCE (CHAPELWAITE) from Ontario and Sarah Taylor (THE LAST BARON) from Alberta.

Annie Ilkow is a Montreal-based editor whose recent work includes Ghosts (CBS, single-camera comedy), TRANSPLANT (2 seasons, for NBC/CTV), and BLOOD & TREASURE (2 seasons, CBS action-adventure). She also edited the critically-acclaimed drama 19-2, the seminal DURHAM COUNTY. A graduate of the film program at Concordia University, she earned her MFA in Cinema at the University of East Anglia, UK. 

Born in BC, Raised in NS, calls Halifax home since 1998. Met Mike Clattenburg and edited his low budget feature TRAILER PARK BOYS in 1999. Since then has been doing anything TRAILER PARK BOYS related. Started editing things with Cory Bowles whenever our schedules allowed. Married with three kids and owns and operates Digiboyz Inc. (Post Production) since 2001.

lisa binkleyAward winning film and television editor Lisa Binkley began her career in post-production after having studied theatre and film production at U.B.C. She graduated from the Media Resources Program at Capilano University. Since then she has worked on numerous feature films, MOWs and television series.

Her work was recognized when she received a Gemini Award (CSA) for her editing of the mini-series, HUMAN CARGO. This Canadian/South African co-production was directed by Brad Turner (HOMELAND & 24) and it received 17 Gemini Nominations and also won a Peabody Award.

Her work on MGM’s critically acclaimed science fiction series, THE OUTER LIMITS and Showtime’s, THE L WORD (Written and produced by by Ilene Chaiken) has given Lisa the opportunity to work with such directors as Marlee Gorris (Academy Award Winner – ANTONIA’S LINE), Moises Kaufman (THE LARAMIE PROJECT), Helen Shaver (VIKINGS), Lynne Stopkewich (KISSED), and Kimberley Peirce (BOYS DON’T CRY).

She is currently working on ZOMBIES 3 for Disney+, directed by Paul Hoen.

Lisa is a full member of IATSE 891, ACFC West and is a voting member of the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences.  In 2008, she was inducted as a full member into the Canadian Cinema Editors (CCE) honourary society.

Roderick is an award-winning Picture and Sound Editor who has worked in the film industry for over twenty years. His extensive knowledge of both sides of the post equation has proven invaluable. His experience in feature films, TV series, shorts and documentaries has established him as one of the industry’s most sought-after collaborators. On the picture side, he is known for his work on STILL MINE (2012), VICTORIA DAY (2009) and ONE WEEK (2008). For television, he has edited THE EXPANSE (Season 3 to 6), KILLJOYS (Season 4 & 5), and Chapelwaite (2021). He picture edited acclaimed documentaries such as 100 FILMS & A FUNERAL (2007), THE GHOSTS IN OUR MACHINE (2013), DAVID & ME (2014) and SILAS (2017). His sound editing work includes SPLICE (2009), PASSCHENDAELE (2008) and SILENT HILL (2006). He is currently picture editing the series BILLY THE KID.

Sarah Taylor is an award-winning editor with over eighteen years of experience. She has a passion for storytelling and has cut a wide range of documentaries, corporate videos, television programs, and full length feature films. Her work has been seen in festivals around the world including Sundance. She is a member of the Directors Guild of Canada (DGC) and is the host of the CCE podcast The Editor’s Cut.

About the Event

November 2, 2021

Online

Categories
Articles Members

Congratulations: 2021 Rosie Awards Winner

2021 Rosie Awards

Congratulations to our Rosie Award Winner!

Jesse Jams
BEST EDITOR (UNSCRIPTED UNDER 30 MINUTES)

Sarah Taylor

Jesse Jams

Trevor Anderson Films

Categories
The Editors Cut

Episode 047: In Conversation with Nena Erb, ACE

The Editors Cut - Episode 047 - In Conversation with Nena Erb, ACE

Episode 47: In Conversation with Nena Erb, ACE

This episode is the online master series that took place on August 25th, 2020. In Conversation with Nena Erb, ACE.

This episode is sponsored by Annex Pro/AVID

The Editors Cut - Episode 047 - In Conversation with Nena Erb, ACE

We discuss Nena’s television career which started as a PA in the art department of MADtv and has progressed to being an Emmy winning editor on HBO’s documentary series Project Greenlight and Insecure. She has also worked on Crazy Ex Girlfriend and the Apple series Little America. We talked about her work on Insecure which landed her an Emmy win in 2020 and most recently an Eddie award nomination.

This master class was moderated by Sarah Taylor.

Listen Here

The Editor’s Cut – Episode 047 – Interview with Nena Erb, ACE

 

Nena Erb:

I have a really weird method of cutting. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, tell us, tell us! 

Sarah Taylor:

Hello, and welcome to The Editor’s Cut. I’m your host, Sarah Taylor. We would like to point out the lands on which we have created this podcast, and that many of you may be listening to us from, are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we are on ancestral territory that has long served as a place where indigenous peoples have lived, met, and interacted. We honor, respect, and recognize these nations that have never relinquished their rights or sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many contributions, and the concerns that impact indigenous individuals and communities. Land acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Today’s episode is the online master series that took place on August 25th, 2020 in conversation with Nena Erb ACE. We discussed her television career, which started as a PA in the art department of Mad TV and has progressed to being an Emmy-winning editor on HBO’s documentary series, Project Greenlight and Insecure. She’s also worked on Crazy Ex-girlfriend and the Apple series, Little America. We’ll talk about her work on Insecure, which landed her an Emmy win in 2020 and most recently, and Eddie award nomination. This event was moderated by me. 

 

This podcast contains language and content that some may find disturbing or offensive. Listener discretion is advised. 

 

[show open]

 

Sarah Taylor:

Welcome Nena Erb ACE. We’ve got to add the ACE. It’s very exciting. 

 

Nena Erb:

I don’t know, CCE sounds kind of interesting too.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Well you’d have to move to Canada, but that’s okay. You can have both. Thanks so much for joining us today. We do have lots to cover. We have some clips to show, lots of questions to ask. But first I’m going to give a little bit of a bio on Nena. She is an Emmy winning editor based in Los Angeles. She has edited projects for HBO, Apple, Universal, Killer Films, and many others. In 2016, she received an Emmy award for her work on HBO documentary series, Project Greenlight. In addition, she has received two ACE Eddie nominations for her work on season three of HBO’s comedy drama series Insecure, which is what we’re going to talk about today. Well, season four.

And the other would be for CW’s acclaimed, a series Crazy Ex-girlfriend. Nena’s received her second Emmy nomination in 2020 for her work on season four of Insecure, which I was really excited that I had got to know Nena through back and forth about doing this event. Then I saw that she was nominated for an Emmy and I got really excited, and I was like, I emailed her in the middle of the night, “Congratulations.” So congratulations to you.

 

Nena Erb:

Thank you so much, and thank you for having me. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yes. I’m so glad that you could Join us today. So to get things going, tell us where you’re from and how you ended up in this world of film, television, and specifically editing?

 

Nena Erb:

Well, I’m originally from Taiwan, Taipei, Taiwan but we pretty much grew up in South L.A. and I’ve been there ever since. I didn’t go to film school. I went to art school and ended up being a PA in the art department on Mad TV and did that for a while and bounced around production. Nothing felt the right fit, so I just kept trying different things. It wasn’t until I was working as an associate producer that I really understood what editing was about, because the editor I was working with he completely opened my eyes and then showed me how you can shape characters and change the tone, and how much control you have over the story. 

Of course after that, I was like, I was hooked. There was no turning back. So I learned the software and he was kind enough to hire me as his assistant, and here I am many, many years later. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

What was one of the first jobs you had that made you be like, “I am an editor now. This is it. I’m a real editor.”?

 

Nena Erb:

Gosh, it’s so hard to say because honestly there are days when I’m not sure that I’m an editor on a show for the first time, whether it’s a pilot or if I’m in a first season show or even my first season on Insecure, which is last season, I wanted to make sure that I did a really good job. When you’re new, you want to make sure you fit in. You want to make sure you’re getting the tone right, the pacing right, the look right. All of it has to be … You have to blend in seamlessly with the team and your work has to be seamless. 

And so yeah, whatever I’m in those environments, I don’t feel I’ve made it until the first screening, and until I know that the producers are happy. Then it’s like, okay, I’m okay. I’m good. I can keep editing.

 

Sarah Taylor:

I feel that’s a really common thing that happens is like, because every project has a whole … Because everything’s different. You have different people to work with, different stories to tell, and then once you get the ball rolling, you’re like, “Wait a minute, I got this. It’s okay. I know what I’m doing. This is great.” First I want to ask, because you started doing more work in unscripted, is that right? And then moved to scripted. How did that process work from being an assistant or an editor in the unscripted world and then making that jump to be in scripted? Because I feel a lot of people will want to make those transitions, and so how did yours work?

 

Nena Erb:

Well it took a long time, easily a span of like 10 years. What happened was I had started in non-fiction and there’s a show called Curb Your Enthusiasm that came around, they were looking for an assistant. I thought this is the perfect chance for me to get into scripted television. I interviewed. Didn’t get the job.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Darn it.

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah.

 

Sarah Taylor:

I was like, “I didn’t see that one. That was exciting.” Anyway …

 

Nena Erb:

Didn’t get that job at all. But the interesting thing is I befriended the editor. His name is Steve Rasch ACE, and I became friends with the associate producer whose name was Megan Murphy. And we just kept in touch, and at one point in the season they needed some extra help for a short, very short term. I went in there and helped him out, and that kind of took my friendship with them to a different direction. Steve became my mentor, Megan became a really good friend and a champion. After that I think Curb wrapped, she took a job on a reality show, and I happened to be on that show.

I didn’t know that she was … I knew that she worked there, but I didn’t know she was keeping an eye on my work. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Oh wow.

 

Nena Erb:

She was just secretly watching my cuts and evaluating me, I guess. After that she had a show that also included improv comedy, and she knew that I could handle copious amounts of dailies with different lines and the camera everywhere else, so she brought me on and that was my very first scripted credit. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

What was that show? 

 

Nena Erb:

Lovespring International. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Then have you worked with her since then? Have you kept that relationship going through the years? 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah, definitely. She’s hired me to do music editing for one of Jeff Berlin’s movies. Then later on she hired me to do some editing for one of his movies as well. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

That’s awesome. 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah.

 

Sarah Taylor:

I think that’s something to be said about our industry too, is that you make those connections with people and you become their friends or you just you’re friendly with people and they want to work with you because they like you right? And they want to keep bringing you back because they want to spend time with you and you do good at your work and all that stuff so, something to be said about making sure we keep our relationships good with people in the world in the industry. 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah, definitely.

 

Sarah Taylor:

So, I’m curious as every editor I think has slightly different processes on how they handle dailies, and when they get to look at scripts, or how they look at the notes and all that kind of stuff. Do you get to have a look at the scripts before you start? Do you have any input in scripts, or the scripts before you get to start post? It’s probably different in TV because it’s a pretty fast turn around and the writer’s room is happening now for Insecure, but you’re not part of that. So yeah. What is your process with that? Do you get to be part of the table read, like that kind of thing? Then what happens once you get in the edit suite and you start cutting?

 

Nena Erb:

Typically I’m usually getting the scripts a day or two before the table read. Unless it’s something really, really glaring, we don’t really chime in about the scripts. There’s a whole team of people that get paid to do that, so I’m just happy to read it and show up with a table read, show up at their tone meetings, and then once the dailies come in, what I’ll do is I’ll watch everything including just the nothingness in between resets, because I’ve found reaction shots that have bailed me out many times in those moments. I watch it from the first frame to the last frame. As I’m watching it, I’m cutting it in my head too. And of course, if I love a performance, I’ll just make a note of that or I’ll put a locator on it. After that I start cutting. I have a really weird method of cutting. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Ooh tell us, tell us.

 

Nena Erb:

I like to do multiple versions of every scene. Because sometimes there might be two or three performances of a certain line that I like, so I’ll have different versions with different performances, different ways to get into the scene, out of a scene. My first pass is not perfect. I’m just trying to put it all together, put the bones together and then I’ll move on. The next morning while my assistant’s prepping dailies, I’ll come in and I’ll watch all those different various scenes. And it always happens that there’s one version that’s going to jump out, or maybe parts of one version end up another. Once I pick those versions, then I clean it up and polish it and make sure it’s perfect. 

Usually by then dailies are ready for the next day and it all starts over again.

 

Sarah Taylor:

That’s a really great way of doing it, because then you have those fresh eyes on it in the morning time where you’re like, in the heavy of it during the afternoon or whatever the day before, and then you get those fresh eyes and yeah things do pop out right?

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Have you ever found that with doing that process where you have all these different variations of the same scene that you have been able to audition them for the director if they’re like, “Oh, something doesn’t feel right.” Do you bring those other versions up and say, “Oh, I tried it this way.” or is it just go away because you’ve already picked your favorite? 

 

Nena Erb:

Sometimes. Very rarely, but sometimes I’ll have two versions that are just like, I can’t pick. Either one works. If that’s the case, I’ll pick one that might reflect the script more, and just so … because I know that writers want to see their words on it, so it’s kind of important to present that. And then as you know when you’re cutting, there’s always things where like, “Hmm, that’s got a bull’s eye on it. I know that people are going to bump on that,” or those parts kind of like, “It’d be better if those lines are switched.” I have a log of all the scenes, and there’ll be a version of that. And if they’re in the room and they’re like, “I’m not so sure about this area right here.” I will say, “You know what? Let me show you this other version I was working on. And that’s when I show it to them. Yeah.

 

Sarah Taylor:

What’s your typical schedule for, like I say for Insecure?

 

Nena Erb:

Well, I usually start cutting the next day so I can stay up to camera and make sure that nothing is missing or that there’s no issues with the dailies. Then after the last two dailies, we have three days to finish our editors cut, typically like two days for editing, the last day’s reserved for music, because music is a huge thing and it takes a long time. After all the songs.

 

Sarah Taylor:

How is your relationship with your assistant? What stuff do you rely on them for in your process? 

 

Nena Erb:

Oh my gosh. My assistant is amazing. She’s my teammate. I bounce things off of her often and especially with music because sometimes you’re like, I love all three of these songs, but I know I can’t put three right there, so I’ll play them for her and she’ll usually help me narrow it down. And sometimes I’ll realize once we’re narrowing it down, like, “Oh wait, this song would actually work great in another scene or another episode.” I trust her opinion and I’m always … We have an open door policy. She cuts whatever she is drawn to. We work on it and yeah and once she cuts something, I’m very open to putting it in the episode and screening it with the producers and directors.

Sometimes I’ve been able to convince directors to let her jump in and get a little practice in to do notes. Because it’s easy for me and her to work because it’s very … we have a relationship, a friendship. I think when you’re on the hot seat with a director who’s breathing down your neck, it’s a whole different experience. It’s something that I think it’s important for them to go through, and so I’ve done that to her a few times and she’s done amazing all those times. So yeah, I definitely treat my assistant like a number of the team. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Have you used the same assistant for a long time, or is it depending on the show that you’re on?

 

Nena Erb:

I’ve been working with Lynarion for about three years going on four, I think. Prior to that I had an assistant for, I think one season, it was … I walked into a pre established show that had an assistant that they wanted me to use. Then prior to that, I had an assistant for about five years. I try to work with the same people.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Now when also comes to your process and stuff. Is there anything that you need to have in your edit suite or that is a must have shortcut or something that you do all the time that if you didn’t have, you’d be like, “I need that thing,”?

 

Nena Erb:

I mean there are so many things.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Well, tell us the things. I have many too. 

 

Nena Erb:

I like to have my tea there. I like to stand, I like to have my bench a certain way so that people aren’t behind me. I have it setup, so I’m able to talk to them face to face. It sounds really strange, but it works great. I highly recommend it. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Do you have a monitor behind you for them to screen …? How does that set up work? That sounds really good. I’m curious.

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. Pretend your desk right now is your [inaudible] right? And I’m the producer. I’m actually sitting this way, but I can talk to you and then he’d be right there. For them it’s like a living room area you know?

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, yeah.

 

Nena Erb:

For me, I can … Once I do something, I can poke my head out and talk to them about stuff. I just think that it’s better when they can see your face. But I just think that it’s … when you can see someone’s face when you’re working on notes and stuff, I feel you can establish a rapport quicker. Trust is built quicker too so …

 

Sarah Taylor:

And then can you watch them when they’re watching easier that way? Like you could see their reactions and be like, “Oh yeah, I was right. That’s not working.”?

Nena Erb:

Yeah. I try to watch them, but I don’t want to be like … You know? Because then they’ll feel very self-conscious. But I always like sneaking a little peak, and especially in areas where I’m not 100% sure that it’s working, so…

 

Sarah Taylor:

That’s a good technique, and you’re usually always cutting in AVID. Is that your main software? 

 

Nena Erb:

Yes definitely. Yep. I wanted to teach myself Premiere during COVID, but I kinda never got around to it.

 

Sarah Taylor:

There’s a lot of things that we have to sort through during COVID so I can understand that. Is there a project that’s been maybe stood out to you either because it was super challenging and then you had to overcome something to make it be whatever it ended up being, or it was like, “Hey, this works really good. It’s smooth sailing.”? I don’t know if that ever happens, but has there been one thing that’s really stood out to you? 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah, yeah. It was last year, I worked on a series called Little America. It’s a series that I don’t think would have gotten made even five years ago. It’s a series about the immigrant experience. Each episode is completely different one could be comedy, another one could be drama, and so as an editor, it’s really nice to have all those different genres to stretch your creative muscle. For that, I mean that I loved just the ability to be able to jump between the two genres, and also I’m an immigrant and I never thought that I would be working on a show that’s about the immigrant experience, something that I’ve actually gone through and I can relate to. 

I love that the show runners, they didn’t want to paint them as stereotypes that you normally see, you know? So that was great. It was great to be able to humanize them and show them as normal people. It was…I think there’s a lot of criticism about the show because we didn’t involve politics, but I think that it was important for them not to do that, because it’s not about an agenda for us. It’s just about showing immigrants as normal human beings. Someone that might be related to you. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. I really enjoyed the series. I think if you did include the political side of it, then people who might not have watched it and then might have realized, wait a minute, that person is like me, or made it relatable. I, of course, watched year two shows episodes, which I loved. Do you want to talk a little bit about, was it called The Silence? That was the episode title, right? 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah.

 

Sarah Taylor:

For people who haven’t seen it, it’s an episode where basically the whole thing takes place at a silent meditation retreat, so really there’s no dialogue. But Nena did a brilliant job, and it was funny, and there was … It was so good. I was laughing then I was crying. It was great. Anybody who hasn’t seen it yet, please go watch Little America, The Silent. And then the other one was called The Sun?

 

Nena Erb:

The Sun yeah.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Which was heartbreaking, but also very good. How did that work for you, to cut almost … They were 30 minute episodes, right?

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah.

 

Sarah Taylor:

With really no dialogue. Did you add sound effects? Were you shaping the soundscape and all that stuff? Because man, it was good. There was lots of good moments. 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. That’s probably the hardest thing I’ve ever edited so far. I’m sure there’s going to be harder things coming up. But up until now, that’s probably the hardest one, because there is no dialogue. Certain times the performance can be really subjective when there isn’t dialogue surrounding it, propping it up. The first cut came in a little along, it had a lot of different storylines, and watching it felt like you’re just watching a documentary. Not really sure who the main characters are, or who you’re supposed to be following, because you’re following multiple people. We slowly chipped away at it, chipped away at it. Because in the beginning there was a scene with dialogue that set up everything. 

Then in the middle there was a little more dialogue, and then there’s all the dialogue in the back. Through experimentation we got rid of all the dialogue in post, and we had to get rid of many, many different characters stories so that Sylviane’s can rise and you end up realizing, “Oh, I’m supposed to be following her. This is her journey as a seeker. She’s here, she’s looking for love, she’s looking to belong. That story finally bubbled up to the top after 50 some odd versions. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Wow. 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah, it was … We did a lot of different versions. I think I did like 10 one night. It was ridiculous. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Wow. Well you wouldn’t tell by watching it. It looks great. I liked that there was no setup. Right? I feel like you guys … Yeah, you did a great job of … Everybody kind of has … Maybe not everybody, but there’s a vision of what a silent meditation looks and there’s like … You’re like, “Oh, okay. They’re not talking. Okay. Yup. That’s how it goes. Yep. This makes sense.”

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. Lynarion, my assistant, she did a phenomenal job with the sound design. She really did. It was so good that when we got to the stage, I think we had to go back to what she had a lot of times.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Nice. 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. That was an interesting mixed day. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

You’re like, “Actually it was better before, sorry.”

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. They were great with it though. Cool, very, very understanding of it. They were able to still add their own little touches, but yeah, she knocked that out of the park. The sound design was so great. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. It was really good. Did you want to talk about The Sun and how that came together, that episode?

 

Nena Erb:

That one came together more traditionally I think. But of course, anything compared to The Silence and all those versions that we did seem easier. I wouldn’t say it was easy, but … But yeah, that one was … It was interesting for me because I didn’t want to demonize Syrians. It’s about a Syrian man who seeks asylum because his father discovered he was gay and is trying to kill him. It’s a heartbreaking story. At the same time it was very important to the director and to myself and producers to make sure that we didn’t shamed him into that, “Oh, you should be more accepting,” kind of a role. We tried to explain why these mercy killings or whatever they’re called are done in that culture. That was, I think, probably the most eyeopening experience for me to be able to really scrutinize all the different performances to make sure like, “Okay, this is emotional, but not too sappies.” Because you don’t want to like … anything too syrupy. 

When the guy’s explaining why the father is hunting him. And also we couldn’t be too angry either. Then now you’re demonizing the father and the whole culture, religious reasoning behind it. For the tone it was really tough to find the right balance, but I think we did okay. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. I think that’s such an important thing to talk about and that you have those discussions because it’s so easy and in a lot of media, it’s so easy for that to be … Well, you’re just, you’re the bad guy period. But he’s a whole human and there’s reasons why he believes a certain thing, and there’s culture, and there’s religion, and there’s … We all have good and evil. It’s good to have stories that where you see, well that’s really crappy, but also I can see where he’s coming from right?

 

Nena Erb:

Right.

 

Sarah Taylor:

I think we definitely, as editors can help shape those things. And yeah, you’re right. The fact that you took that time to really look at all the reactions or all of the takes and say to you know … To be thinking about that while you’re cutting, because that could be lost on … Other people might not, or if that’s not brought up in whatever you might miss it and then we’re telling a completely different story. 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. Definitely.

 

Sarah Taylor:

It’s a reminder to all the editors out there that we do have a lot of control in the edit suite. We can really shape things to be impactful, I think right?

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, I think you did a fantastic job on that one. 

 

Nena Erb:

Oh thank you. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

So yes, everybody, please go watch Little America. It was a really great series. Highly recommend it. Apple TV. Well, speaking of things to watch, so Insecure. This was season four. Yes. We’re watching clips from season four. I’m a huge fan of Insecure, and when I was looking to see who we could bring on for the master series, I discovered that Nena had cut Insecure and I got very excited. I was like, “We must interview Nena.” Then I saw all of her other credits and I was like, yes, she’s got lots of good stuff. This is great. I’m a fan of, and familiar of your work and a fan of your work. We have a few clips to watch. Do you want to maybe set up the series and we’re going to watch self-care Sunday as the first clip, just so in case people haven’t seen it or…?

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. This is episode six. It’s basically the first few scenes of the episode. It comes after the block party episode where Issa and Molly, her best friend, they have the big blow out. Of course neither wants to apologize to the other, because they all feel like they’re right. Even though the block party was a huge success in this episode, Issa’s feeling a little empty, and she’s missing her friend. And so throughout the entire episode, she’s constantly checking to see if Molly’s called and Molly hasn’t. This is her kind of … We’re not going to show this part, but the episode’s all about her trying to prove that she’s not a selfish bitch. What we’re about to see is the aftermath of a fight that happened between her and her best friend.

 

[clip plays]

Bitch, do you hear yourself? Nobody has more drama than you, Issa. You still the same selfish bitch you always been. You need to figure out your shit and stop using people.

Last night was lit. 

When’s the next one? 

Where were those bomb tacos from? 

Thought that shit was going to be whack.

But that shit was tight. 

The most fun I had an Inglewood in a minute. 

I can’t believe Vince Staples was there.

We need more events like this. Even my grandma was out there dancing.

Tonight in the South L.A. niggas gathered for fried chicken, cocoa butter, and violence. But as always, you can count on Shannon on the scene.

Yo, just checking in on you. Don’t let that Molly fuckshit ruin how well you did today, you killed it Iss. By the way, did you invite mom, because she keep blowing my-

Hey, morning after update. It looks we are waiting on deposit returns from four vendors. But in the meantime, I did have a few questions about something that you was telling me that-

You okay girl. What was that last night? What happened with y’all. Okay this baby won’t stop crying. Why you reaching for my titty, ain’t nothing in there. Is that a Wheat Thin? That’s a Wheat Thin.

So what am I supposed to do now? 

That’s a good question. You fucked up.

I didn’t fuck up. She fucked up. 

And she got you fucked up.

Fucking right.

That’s what the fuck I’m saying. 

I should probably reach out though. 

Reach out? Have you noticed that you’re always the one reaching out and apologizing.

The fuck.

Yeah. Let her reach out to you. She’s wrong too. Effortless bars.

Okay. Yeah. But what do I do while I wait? 

Relax, relate, release. Take care of you. 

Self-care Sunday. 

I’m sorry, what? Speak up.

I said self-care Sunday. It’s when you take care of yourself on a Sunday. 

I know what that means. I read too. 

Okay. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

I love the mirror talks always. They’re my favorite scenes. Tell us about this scene and why you chose it to talk about.

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. I feel like every season there’s always an outlier episode. I had that in season three as well, and I feel this is very similar. There’s a lot of use of the graphics from social media, and the whole concept of the half of the screen being taken up by her brother, her assistant and social media stuff, the YouTube clip. It’s always taken up by somebody else but never Molly. It’s like the two halves and half of one’s gone. That was kind of the idea for me anyways. I wasn’t in the writers room so I don’t know what they had. But for me, cutting, I was always, I had that in mind. The amazing thing was we never discussed what any of the graphics would look, or whether it would be picture and picture or exactly 50/50 split. It went back and forth multiple times.

Knowing that that could be very, very challenging, the notes process and it could change a million times. I just decided, I made a decision, let’s just do half and half and Lynarion made all those graphics which are phenomenal.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. I think it presented well, and so there wasn’t a single note. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Nice. 

 

Nena Erb:

And all the graphics.  I had a lot of notes from the VFX team.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

 

Nena Erb:

[crosstalk 00:29:47] put that together, but yeah, I was relieved and amazed that Lynarion did such a great job with that, that we just sailed through. There’s a phone conversation that we’ll probably take a look at later, but that was also a continuation of … Originally it was supposed to be a split-screen conversation, and we tried it that way but it … I don’t know. I didn’t feel like we still needed to use a 50/50 visual language that we used earlier, because it comes from after she had her chat with her mom. So maybe she’s starting to feel whole, so I didn’t feel like we needed to split the screen. That was just a crazy, crazy concept that I ran with. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

I hear you. Well, it worked, and I think, yeah, it had lots of good, good … Well, there was lots of good things of what was on the other screen. The graphics or that YouTube lady. Like [laughs]. Do you want to touch on music for this series and why music is such a big part of the series, and what that process is like in the edit suite? 

 

Nena Erb:

Sure. Yeah. Music is a huge character. Issa’s a big fan of music. She’s always said that she wants a great show, but she wants the music to be dope. We’re always trying to use artists that are unreleased or about to release when the episode drops. It’s a whole timing thing that our music supervisor Kier Lehman has to deal with. He’s been able to find all these incredible artists that I had never heard before. So yeah. We have like thousands and thousands of songs to choose from. 

Sarah Taylor:

Wow.

 

Nena Erb:

It’s got to be West coast, it’s got to be the right vibe. It’s got to sound great. It’s got to have lyrics that fit the scene. There’s a lot of different boxes that we need to tick, and so that’s why it takes forever. But I feel like we’re doing okay with the choices that we’re making. Yeah. Issa always has ideas too, because maybe she’ll be driving into work and she’ll hear a song and she’ll say, “Oh, let’s try that there.”

 

Sarah Taylor:

One question that popped up in the thing was does she ever come to the edit suite and work with you?

 

Nena Erb:

Yes.

 

Sarah Taylor:

What is it like working with her? I think she’d be really fine but …

 

Nena Erb:

She’s great. She’s super smart. She’s able to look at herself and be very objective. I know that that can be really hard sometimes for producers who are also acting in the episodes, but she’s great. The first time I worked with her, I wasn’t sure what to expect. But, within minutes it felt I was hanging out with a friend criticizing what’s on TV. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

That’s awesome. Do think that growing up … Because when did you move to L.A.? You were a young child when you moved to L.A.?

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Do you think that growing up in L.A. is helped you work on the show because you are from L.A.? Do you feel that’s a benefit for you? 

 

Nena Erb:

I think so. I feel it has … South L.A. in particular that whole neighborhood that the show is based on, or based out of, was where we settled when my family and I immigrated here. So yeah. So that community has always been very, very special to me because it was our first experience in a whole new country. It could have gone south really bad but it didn’t, because like … It was incredible. Our neighbors embraced us and just helped us along. I had friends almost immediately.

 

Sarah Taylor:

That’s great. 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah, so growing up in that area, it’s always been very special so … I love featuring South L.A. so…

 

Sarah Taylor:

I feel like that’s a really special part of the show, is that you have these really great drone shots and just street shots of the space, and it’s like a character in itself I feel like. And … So yeah, I was curious to know if there’s … what you felt there was that connection. Thinking back to when you were your young self, did you ever think that one day you’d be making a show based in that community? That must be pretty wild to think about. 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah, definitely. I did not think that would happen and I made it a point not to say anything in my interview because I didn’t want that to be … I didn’t want that to sound fake because it’s not.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah for sure.

 

Nena Erb:

For sure, people have like, “Oh yeah, I love that city,” and stuff, like using it in the interview. But for me it was a very personal thing so I didn’t tell Issa until we were done with season three. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, she must’ve felt … That must’ve been a special connection there-

 

Nena Erb:

Oh yeah.

 

Sarah Taylor:

… to talk about that yeah.

 

Nena Erb:

It’s so interesting because South L.A. changes. It’s always changing, constantly evolving. From season to season, we have to shoot new exterior’s. Things are just different. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Do you want to show the next clip? I guess it would be the phone call. 

 

Nena Erb:

This comes after an entire episode of her giving an older man a ride. He’s this prickly old man who’s making her life miserable, but she’s just trying to prove that she’s not a selfish bitch.

 

[clip plays]

Hey.

This is Kelli, may I ask who’s calling?

Kelli it’s Issa. You called me. 

I know I called your ass, but you’re ignoring me like you’re my biological father. Where you been? Are you okay? 

Yeah. I’m okay. I’ve just been busy. 

Okay. Well have you called Molly yet? 

Uh-uh (negative).

Why not? 

Because she hasn’t called me. 

So that’s it. That’s a wrap? Issa, come on. I know you’re upset right now, but maybe if y’all sat down and talk face to face, you could work it out. 

Are you giving Molly the same energy? 

Yes. I’ve been calling that bitch too. Look when me and Tiff let our shit sit too long, we almost didn’t come back from it. 

I just don’t want to be the one to reach out this time. 

Okay. So what? If she doesn’t call, y’all just never going to speak again. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

I really liked the pacing in that one, and them walking and stopping and …

 

Nena Erb:

Oh yeah, yeah. That was a very deliberate choice. I wanted to make it seem like they were going to potentially meet in the middle. As a symbolism of them coming to accord and she’s going to go call Molly. But they never do meet in the middle so … and she never calls Molly. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Nothing is solved.

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah.  I had a little fun cutting that once I didn’t like what it looked like as a split-screen. I tried that other concept of trying to make it seem like they’re mirroring each other as they’re getting closer and closer together only they really weren’t. I’m glad that in the end Issa likes this version better. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Yeah. I think it worked really well. When you’re in this show, because the framing is very … a specific style of framing for a lot of the shots and stuff. Are you at all ever helping with that process? Where like, if it’s in the suite you’re maybe punching in a little bit or shaping things differently to make sure it fits into that vibe I guess is … I don’t know?

 

Nena Erb:

No, no. I think that look was established since the pilot, and all of our DPs and our directors have honed in on it, and they’re very aware of when to shoot these short-sighted shots and when not to. Because we don’t use them a lot. We use them sparingly. There might be one potentially two in an episode, but not … It’s typically just one. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. But it’s still like, to me when I see it just … I’m like, “Oh yeah, that’s the style of the show.” It’s interesting, I’ve never actually thought to count how many shots are like that, but that there’s only one shot like that in an episode or maybe two that it still is something that I’m like, yeah. That’s part of the show. That’s fun.

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah.

 

Sarah Taylor:

What is it when you’re hiring an assistant? Is there certain types of skills that you expect from your assistants? 

 

Nena Erb:

I have to get along with them. That’s the most important one, and hopefully they want to be a teammate. I like assistance that want to cut, because I like having someone to bounce certain things off of. That only comes with someone who wants to be an editor, right? 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

 

Nena Erb:

Skills, they’re always evolving. Right? Because I feel like our digital media is constantly changing, so as long as they can do the normal things prep dailies, and maybe script sync scenes, that’s kind of it. Sound design is very important, but I feel like both of the assistants on Insecure this past season are Louis and Lynarion. However they have spoiled me because they’re both so good at everything. Like everything. The effects, temp effects, sound design. Like all of it. It’s going to be hard to replace Lynarion, it really will be. But she’s on her way to editing so I’m pretty excited for her. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

That’s awesome. You’ll have to get her to be like, who’s the next person like you come my way?

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. She’ll have to do the first round of interviews.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Have you ever had moments of creative differences with the director and had to stand your ground to get the approval for the cut that you knew was the right creative direction? 

 

Nena Erb:

No. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, that’s good. 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah.

 

Sarah Taylor:

You lucked out.

 

Nena Erb:

I pick my battles. I try to see it from their point of view, and I know that the director’s cut is a director’s vision and I try to make sure that I’m able to provide that for him or her. If it’s completely off the mark, I know it’s going to get changed. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. 

 

Nena Erb:

There’s no reason to get into it with them. There’s no reason. I just want to make sure that they’re comfortable and they are happy with what we’re turning in, and putting their names on. So, yeah, I don’t get into it. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

I think that’s the biggest difference between a film and television, is that the producers always have the final round. So, if something doesn’t make pass the producers, it doesn’t matter if you fought with the director about it, the producer is going to change it or vice versa, right? 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Do you have any techniques or things that you’ve learnt over the years on how to deal with different personality types in the edit suite? Because every director coming in, every producer coming in, they’re all different. They all have their own quirks and stuff. So, how do you navigate it for yourself in the edit suite, and how do you communicate with all the different people? 

 

Nena Erb:

Well, if it’s a director I haven’t worked with before, I usually try to introduce myself either at the table read or at the tone meeting, make sure they have my contact information. I always … I offer this to every director. I always tell them …I go, “Hey, if you have a scene that you’re a little nervous about, that you’re not sure about, let me know. Shoot me an email, shoot me a text, whatever it is, and I’ll make sure that I cut that first the next day, so you can take a look at it and see if your concerns were valid, or if it was just something that you just weren’t sure, but now that you see it, it’s fine. I find that that really calms them down a lot, and it starts us off on a good foot. So, that’s typically what I do, and I always let them know like my job is to make sure their vision is realized, especially in TV. I think that means a lot to them because they don’t usually get that. 

With producers, it just comes from being in the room with them and trying to read their vibe, and understanding what their internal pacing is and what they respond to in terms of jokes or performances, and really observing them, I think. For a lot of editors, myself included, it can be a little frustrating after you’ve explored all the different avenues of what the scene could be from the dailies, and then they want to like dig into it and start from scratch because they haven’t seen all the things, but it occurred to me that they want to do that, not because they don’t trust me, but because they haven’t gone through all the different avenues that I have. I think of myself as a little tour guide at that point, and we always typically come back to the version that I had or some form of that, because I think once you get to know all the material, I mean, everyone kind of agrees on what’s working and what’s not, or at least I hope so, because you should be a good fit with your show runners. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

For sure, that helps. But that’s a good point of … I feel like maybe early on in careers or yeah, the more experience you have, the more you realize like, okay, no, I’m here as part of the team. Yeah, you do trust me, that I’m providing you with the cut that I think is right, but it’s okay for you to look at other scenes, or other takes. It doesn’t mean that I sucked at my whatever, right? I feel like it takes some time to realize that we can all … or we’re creating something together, right? 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

And maybe, luckily … being fortunate to work with directors and producers that you can collaborate with, I think that’s a huge thing to get that confidence up for young editors or new editors, that they can work together to make the thing. 

 

Nena Erb:

Definitely. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

What are your current thoughts or ideas on what you think the future of post is, now that we’re living in a different world right now? What are your feelings on where things might go in L.A. and for you in the future? 

 

Nena Erb:

Everything is uncertain. I imagine we’ll be working from home a lot more with the potential going into an edit bay, if there’s a tough scene that the director or the producer wants to work with you on in person. There’s been shows that have a protocol in place where if that is to happen, they’ll have an edit bay set up. If you’re going to go in, you’re both going to get tested. It has to happen like a week from the time that you have to in or something. Then of course, you’re sitting far apart with the mask, but honestly, I’m happy to work from home, if it means that my family and I stay safe. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, yeah. But it’s pretty amazing how much you can do from home and how … even just Zoom, like right now. I have Zoom calls with my directors and stuff, and I was doing that before COVID, just because we were in different places. So, it is handy how our technology works. But do you feel like you’ll miss that face to face, or to have those conversations in person, or in the same room? 

 

Nena Erb:

Absolutely. Yeah. I think the rapport will be there, if you’re working with someone you’ve worked with before, but I think if you’re doing a new show with a new team, it might take a little longer for you to establish trust and get on the same page, I guess, with the other person. So, that’s going to be really interesting. I am curious to see how that’s going to go. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. As we all are. And every location is different, right? Every place that … yeah. I know more films are coming up to Canada to shoot because we have less numbers, but then it’s like, yeah, it’s just a wild. The new world. What are your thoughts about making the post-world more equitable, in light of the Black Lives Matter movement and all these other things coming to light. What are your thoughts on how we can make the post-world more equitable and how we can have a different looking people behind the computer shaping these stories, right? 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. This is so interesting. I was just actually talking to Netflix about this.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, good.

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. I had just a general meeting with them and someone asked me like what I thought of including apprentice editors again, and I thought that was a great idea because apprentice editors, it used to be a thing that they would have on films. Someone that comes in that’s the entry level assistant, the apprentice, and they would learn from the two … the first and second assistants and be involved in the environment without a lot of risk. I feel like they should bring that back. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Totally. Yeah. 

 

Nena Erb:

That would help a lot of people build credits and have a resume, so that they can be up for jobs and be considered, because I feel like you can have diversity programs all you want, but if they’re coming out without credits, I don’t know that they’re going to get a chance. You know? I mean, everybody’s always going to say, “Oh, well, here’s two candidates. This person has a lot more credits and you’ve got none.” I think if there are apprentices and they can have like a list of credits on projects, I think it’ll be a lot more helpful. It’s similar to the DGA training program. 

I don’t know if you guys saw that up in Canada, DGA, they pick I think two or three … I don’t remember how many people they pick, but they basically put them on a feature film for a month, put them on another one for a month, put another one for a month, and then they do TV shows. By the time they’re done, they have a tremendous resume and they know how all the different genres work and they can run the set on anything. So, I think if we can do that, I think that’ll make a big difference. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

That’ll be huge. I think that’s something that’s just missing for a long time now, that we have come to the digital world where we don’t need to be in this expensive cutting film. We’ve lost that, where we’re passing our knowledge down as much, right? Especially in our smaller industries, like within Canada. I hardly ever have an assistant, let alone am I able to help somebody as much as maybe somewhere like in L.A. where you can have assistants. Then if we can do this apprentice thing, so many doors I think would open for people, and I think it’s so important. 

And it’s just to share our craft so that people can learn, and they’re not flailing. People are flailing trying to figure it out on their own. They could learn from somebody who has great experience. So yeah, I think that would be fantastic. I know the DGC has trainee programs, but I don’t know … I don’t think I’ve ever seen it for editing. I don’t think it’s in the editing realm, but that would be fantastic. Do you have a story of your own authorship that you may want to tell one day? 

 

Nena Erb:

No. I don’t … 

 

Sarah Taylor:

You like to help others tell stories. That’s fair. 

 

Nena Erb:

Yes. I mean, honestly, I don’t think my life is that interesting. So, I’d rather tell other people’s stories. Yeah. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

That’s awesome. Keith asks … his question’s about the speed of editing. Do you or any of your assistants ever take time to pick up visibility? Is it something you allow your assistants some time to acquire, or do you expect it to be right away … how fast they edit? 

 

Nena Erb:

I don’t really expect my assistants to edit fast. I know that takes time. It took time for me. I think a large part of it comes with practice, but also the ability to really understand the material that you’re working with. If you know where all the bodies are buried, so to say, I think you can solve problems quicker, and I think that’s the perception of speed. When someone’s giving your note and you’re like, oh, right, okay. I can do this, this, this, and this. It’s because you’re accessing what you know, the tools that you have to work with. Because I feel like once you’re … a quick type of … I mean, it’s all the same, right? I think really, the speed comes from how quickly you’re able to solve a problem rather than the actual physical act of executing it. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

What advice would you have for a new learning film student who wants to become an editor? 

 

Nena Erb:

Oh, wow, there’s so many. Let’s see. Gosh. Well, American ACE. They have an internship program that is hugely valuable and it introduces you to all kinds of different genres, puts you in rooms. I mean, now everything’s virtual, but back when you can send someone to an edit bay, they would have you in a feature film room for a week. They would have you in an episodic TV room for a week. They would have you in a documentary reality room for a week, so you understand the workflow, and then they do a week in your mix house, your sound houses, your online facilities, so that you can understand, okay, all these things that you’re doing when you’re assisting, that’s where it goes and you understand why it has to be a certain way. So, I think it’s just such a great program that recent graduates should definitely apply. I don’t know if you guys have something similar. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

We have a mentorship program, yeah, and for the CCE that we just started this year … 2019, so last year, but going through this year, and we had a pilot project in Toronto. So, eventually we’re going to try to do it across Canada, but so, yeah, right now in Toronto it’s happening. Of course, it started pre COVID. So, we had all these things set up where people were getting to go into edit suite. So, they’re doing it virtually and stuff now, too, but it’s very similar. But more, they’ve been paired with an editor or an assistant that they’re … So, then they get to be mentored with that editor or assistant that they’re paired with. Yeah, we’re definitely trying to get that going more as a program, similar to what ACE is offering, because I think that’s huge. 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. And also, I think the interesting thing is, with everybody being home because of COVID, you can reach out to people whose work you admire because chances are they’re hanging out. They might be open to just having a Zoom coffee with you. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. 

 

Nena Erb:

I think so much of this business is about relationships. I would just make it a point to reach out to someone new once a week or once a day, if you’re really ambitious, and yeah. Get to know a lot of people, establish and foster the friendships, and eventually they’ll become your network and they’re going to be able to help you move up, move around. So, all that, in addition to trying to cut as much as you can for practice, those are all things that I would suggest. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Awesome. Can you speak more about the interview process? How do you prepare and what’s the best piece of advice you would give to put your best foot forward in an interview? 

 

Nena Erb:

Well, I typically try to get the script, if it’s a new project or a pilot, and I’ll read it a couple of times. I always try to think, okay, for this scene … if I have questions, I write them down. If there’s something that I really connect with, I write it down. If I can think of music that would go great with the scene, I write that down. You want to come in with questions about the characters, the story. You want to bring something to it as well. So, maybe that’s a music thing, maybe it’s something else that you’re envisioning, or maybe you read the scene and you suddenly have a concept of how they can shoot it. That might be worth bringing up, just to spitball. But yeah, it’s really just doing your prep, and when it’s possible … because sometimes I’ll get a script and I’m meeting them in the … the meeting’s next morning, so I don’t have time to watch other programs or other movies that the producers have done before, because it helps to know some of their work, too. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Keith says he’s been teaching himself for the past six months and he’s been waiting to pick up freelance jobs to build his portfolio, and he wants to become assistant editor. So, he’s wondering how he should approach that. Is it more important to meet and make friends, which is kind of what you just said, with post-production people, or have a demo reel? Do you also have any good advice on how he can reach that goal of becoming an editor? 

 

Nena Erb:

Well, I don’t think you need a reel, if you want to be an assistant editor. I think it’s more important to meet people and connect with editors that you get along with, that will potentially need an assistant. That would be probably the quickest way to get a job as an assistant, but if you want to edit, then a reel is important because it helps to be able to show people what you’re capable of. And in terms of being an editor, I think for most people, they work their way up from being an assistant, so then it’s just finding an editor that will mentor you. And I would just try to do my job as best as possible, as fast as possible, so that I can cut something every day, you know? And I think sometimes, if your time allows and if your editor is cool with it, I would just try to cut something every day and then see at the end of the week, okay, how many minutes is that? Is it three minutes? Is it five minutes? And then if it’s five, the next week you aim to do seven- 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, yeah. 

 

Nena Erb:

 … and the next week 10, you know? So, that’s how you build up your speed and how quickly you solve problems, right? Yeah, I think making sure that you can keep up is going to be really, really important on your first editing job, because you don’t want to not be able to deliver on that deadline. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

For sure. Yeah. And if you are in Canada … Keith, I don’t know if you’re in Canada … we, pre-COVID, had lots of gatherings with editors. We’d have pub nights and stuff like that, but we are … as you know like events like this … yes, so he’s in Canada. Yeah. So, events like this, you can connect and learn from editors. Then also, we have Edit Con every year in Canada, where it’s like a full day of chatting with editors. Again, this year it’s probably … it’s going to be online, but those moments, getting out and going to networking events where you’re just connecting with editors and talking edit … because we all get excited and we all want to talk about it … is huge. So, yes, keep up with the CCE and hopefully when we have in-person events again, you can make some of those in-person connections. Another question from Sabrina. She says, as an editor, do you feel having a reel or series of reels put together as important? Or do you only provide examples of your work upon request from specific productions? 

 

Nena Erb:

It’s funny. When I first got an agent, she said to do a reel. I never got around to it, but I said, “Hey, I don’t have time to cut a reel, but here’s what I can do. I can do a website, and I’ll just put certain scenes up,” and she’s like, “That’s fine.” So, that’s been that, and honestly, I don’t know how many people have looked at it, if at all, but I imagine that if I was starting out, I imagine people would want to see something. So, I think that would be a helpful thing to do. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

I feel like it’s more, now, examples of a piece of work or, yeah like a scene or something is really important because you … well, I can’t say anybody can put together a montage of the cool music track and a bunch of clips, but to get your story sense or your pacing sense or whatever, the actual pieces of work is important. Do you have any tips for people who want to make the move to Hollywood or to L.A., and try to get into that world? Because yes, I feel like it would be daunting, but what are your ideas on that? 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah, I think it’s definitely possible. Absolutely. I would save money, a lot of money. because you want to make sure that you have a nice cushion, because there are times when you’re not working and it might be a month or two, and you don’t want to … It’s really stressful if you don’t have that financial cushion. So, I would plan and save as much as you can. I would … and as you’re saving, reach out to editors and assistants, depending on wherever you are level-wise in terms of your career. Reach out to people whose work, I guess, you admire or assistants who you know that have done really difficult V effects, movies. Whatever skill that you want and whatever job that you want, reach out to those people and try to make a connection. 

Again, when you’re meeting people, I would try to find out what they like as a person, rather than just all talk about working. And definitely don’t ask for a job. Get to know them first, because it becomes very awkward when you meet someone for the first time and then they hit you up for a job, and it’s like you want to help them, but you just met them. So, it’s a little difficult to know what their skill sets are, to know what their personality is like, and who they’re going to fit with. So, it just puts the other person at a very awkward position. So, I would definitely reach out, try to foster a genuine friendship, and maybe by the time you save up your money, you’ll know many, many people, and you move here and they can help you out. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

That’s awesome. Are there any groups or things … like, there’s ACE, but is there anything else in L.A. specific that editors connect on or events that they go to, or anything like that? 

 

Nena Erb:

I think Blue Collar Post Collective. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. I think they’re pretty big and they’re great with welcoming people that are coming into L.A. or California. I believe it’s based in L.A., but I’m not 100% sure. They’re phenomenal. They’ve been very helpful. They sponsor people to go to EditFest every year. Yeah, I think that’s a great organization to connect with. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

So, Derek is asking, are there any techniques to use to build pacing in your edits? 

 

Nena Erb:

No. I rely on my gut. It’s always … it’s an internal thing. I can’t really explain it, but yeah, it’s all just up here. And I think it’ll come to you with practice … come to anybody with practice, I think. You’ll know what the pacing for a certain scene is, if you want it to be comedic versus dramatic. I think after … it just comes with practice. You’ll learn to trust your gut. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

What are your thoughts on temp music and cutting with music when you’re assembling? What is your ideas on … 

 

Nena Erb:

I don’t work with temp music when I’m assembling. I don’t do music until after I’m done, because I want to make sure that the scene can stand on its own without dressing it up with music. So, yeah, I don’t do that. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

What editors would you advise people to study their techniques and style? Do you have any favorite editors? 

 

Nena Erb:

I love Anne V. Coates and how throughout the years, her work is always changing and growing, and she experiments and she wasn’t afraid to try different things. I’m a big fan of her work, and other editors … it’s really just whatever you gravitate towards. I think it’s going to be tough to emulate and to copy another person’s style. I think you have to find your own because I think it has to feel natural to you, right? if you’re always trying to do something that someone else did, and if it doesn’t feel right to you, I don’t think that that would be a good fit. 

So, for me, yeah there’s lots of editors whose work I admire, but at the end of the day, I don’t ever approach a scene and go, oh, Anne Coates would cut it like this. It’s really just what I find in the dailies that speaks to me. And there are times when I’m like, I don’t like the scene. I know that I can do more, and then I’ll think of the crazy stuff that she did, in Out of Sight, and now it’s like, okay. I’m going to step away, kind of free my mind up, so I can think outside the box. So, there’s been times like that, where something she’s done has reminded me to take a risk. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, totally. I think that’s really interesting when you start to hear other editors techniques, and I think I watched something with a Mindhunter and how they were using lots of picture to picture takes of one actor from another scene, and then … and that was one of the first times I heard that and I never really thought about that. I was like, oh, my god, that’s such a great idea. We can do that. The technology’s there, and of course they shot it in a way that it would be also easier to do those things, but yeah, when you start hearing how people break apart things and put things back together, and then you just have that … It’s not even that it’s their specific technique. It’s how they accomplished something for that specific show, because every show has its own style. So, as an editor, our style is dictated by what the show is or what the film is, right? 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

But to learn how people craft something with what they have and within that style, you can … yeah, you have those little things in your pocket, which I think is really fun. Do you think it’s necessary for somebody to go to film school … which you did not, but you went to art school … or is it better to find a mentor? 

 

Nena Erb:

I didn’t go to film school, so I can’t really speak to that part of it. I think mentors are very important. I’ve definitely had many throughout my career and I don’t know that I would have the same path without them. So, I highly suggest getting a mentor and film school is not bad. I’ve always wondered if I would have liked film school. If I had the time, I’d probably do it, but is it necessary, I don’t know that it is because I know so many people that didn’t go to film school and they have phenomenal careers. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

What is the role of an editor in pre-production? We touched on you get the script before the table read, but maybe tell us that. You get the script, you read through it. When you’re at the table read, what are you looking for? What are you there to get when you’re watching the table read? 

 

Nena Erb:

If it’s a comedy, I try to pay attention to which jokes are getting the biggest laugh and which jokes aren’t. I think the only show where I’ve been more involved with pre-production has really been Crazy Ex-girlfriend, because of all the musical numbers. They have dance, concept meetings, they have different … There was just a lot of different meetings to go into the prep of it, and sometimes they’ll want to do something that’s really out of the box and they want to make sure that the editor is there to make sure that they can do it and have it be cut together. So, that’s really the only show where I was involved from the pre-production standpoint, I guess. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. What was it like working on My Crazy Ex-girlfriend, having to be a musical and having all those major dance numbers? Did you love that? Was it fun or was it challenging? What did you like about that show? 

 

Nena Erb:

I loved it. It was so fun because every episode has at least two, if not … I think eight is the most we’ve had in an episode, and it can range so wildly in terms of genre. You can have an episode where you’re doing Simon and Garfunkel, and then the next piece is an ’80s hip hop song, and then the next piece … and we’re still in the same episode, could be hard rock. So, yeah, it definitely … I think, as an editor, you have a wide palette to choose from, and I think that’s always exciting, and it’s fun. It’s fun. The lyrics are great. They’re hilarious. The visuals are fun to cut and because they’re not the same genre, I enjoy doing the research for it because that sometimes will always inspire something else, too. So, I really enjoy that. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

What would you recommend people do when it comes to researching things about what they’re going to get into in the edit suite? 

 

Nena Erb:

Well, I think there’s a wealth of information on the internet now. I think if it’s a first season show, I would definitely research the creator, because chances are, they did a pilot somewhere, provided it’s a 

TV show. Yeah. So, there’ll be articles about it, I think, because pilots, when they get picked up, it’s always in the trades, and they’ll interview them. Or maybe they’ve given interviews on other projects they’ve done. See what their creative viewpoint is, if possible, if there’s articles about that. And if they’ve done a show before that, take a look at an episode or two, because I think that’ll really inform what they like and that’ll help you. As you’re starting to cut dailies, you’ll have their taste in your mind, so you can try to give them something that you think they’re going to like. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Charmaine says, do you ever find that your first cuts are super cutty? What’s your protocol for resolving that and pacing it out? 

 

Nena Erb:

I’m not a person that likes to cut a lot. I cut when it’s necessary. I don’t find that my first cuts are super cutty. I find that they might be … they should be more cutty. Yeah. But also, I think it … so much is dictated by the story that you’re telling, right? If it’s a moment that was kind of frenetic, yeah, I’m going to do more cuts. But if it’s a moment where they’re … there’s an episode in season three where Issa is walking down the street with Nathan, and the entire thing is like a very before sunrise episode. For that one, their chemistry was so good. I just let it play. I had some really, really long takes that just … unless the story dictated a cut, I just let it go. I really let the story dictate how often I cut, when I cut, if I cut. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Totally. Yeah. Curious about … so, Andrea is curious about what mouse you use. 

 

Nena Erb:

I have it right here. I’ll show. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Excellent. 

 

Nena Erb:

It’s one with a track ball, but I’ve mounted it so it’s vertical. Your elbows will thank you. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

That makes total sense. Yeah. Any other pieces of equipment, gear that you … You said you like to do standing … a standing desk, 

 

Nena Erb:

There’s a new piece of equipment that I’ve recently discovered and think it’s the best in the world. It’s the cube tab. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

And what is that? I don’t know what that is. 

 

Nena Erb:

I’m pretty sure Ruben introduced us to that. It’s basically a little cube, electrical outlet that basically, you plug it in and it has different prongs. So, you can plug different things into this cube that is now plugged into your outlet. Does that makes sense? 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, yeah. That’s awesome. 

 

Nena Erb:

You can put all kinds of stuff on it. You used to have one outlet and now you have three.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Is it USB things that you can put in, or is it other plugs, just like another …

 

Nena Erb:

I think it’s just more electrical plugs. It’s really ever used on set, because they have  lots of things to plug into it. 





Sarah Taylor:

For sure. Yeah. Well, I know for myself, I get a lot of hard drives, so there’s definitely a lot of things to plug in and I only have so much room on my backup generator thingy. Yeah. Did you have a home system set up and have you been working at home during this time? 

 

Nena Erb:

Well, we finished the final episodes of Insecure at the beginning of lockdown. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Okay. 

 

Nena Erb:

The cuts were mostly done, so it was just a matter of approving mixes and doing VFX shots, but I had a laptop and one extra monitor that was always set up. I wouldn’t call it a full system by any stretch of the imagination, but I imagine that my next job, we’ll probably set one in there and we’ll see. Personally, I don’t want to use my own system, even if I had one. I would rather the show rent me one, because I don’t want to be responsible for getting it back up if it crashes.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yup. 

 

Nena Erb:

I’m not a technical, so … I turn it on and that’s about it. So, yeah. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Do you find that your assistants are super technical? I wonder, there’s a special skillset where I find some editors are like, “No, I don’t want to do the technology,” but then the assistants seemed to be really, really good with the technology. 

 

Nena Erb:

I’ve met many assistants that were phenomenal and they were very tech savvy, which is great, because I’m not, and they can just help troubleshoot much better than I can. I find that very interesting because it’s got to be such a different frame of mind to do your work as an assistant, and then have to switch so that you’re thinking with the creative part of it for editing. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. 

 

Nena Erb:

That’s got to be a tough thing to juggle on a daily basis, if you’re trying to cut after your assistant duties, but … 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. I find … because I often have to do both. So, I find for myself, when I’m sinking and stuff, I’m turning off a certain part of the brain, right? Then when it comes to creativity you’re turning it back on, it’s almost like folding laundry, so you can just do it. It’s like you’re doing the motions or whatever, and then when it comes to the … sometimes it feels harder, like you’re working harder, because your brain is working harder to do the actual editing, if that makes sense.

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah totally.

 

Sarah Taylor:

So, sometimes it’s nice to take that break. If I’m feeling stuck on a cut, I’ll be like, go sync to the next 

whatever I need to sink or whatever I need to prep. I can go do that to take a break from the story issue or whatever it might be. So, if you’re able to do that … maybe I just do that because I have to do that. Derek is asking, do you think … does age come into play when you’re hiring an assistant? 

 

Nena Erb:

For me personally? No. No. I’ve just got to make sure I get along with the person and that this person is a team player. If my assistant isn’t great, we’re both going to go down. Yeah, not just him and not just me. We’re both going to go down. So, yeah, it has to be someone who’s going to have my back and do the work, and someone that I want to have a drink with and hang out with. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Having a connection is … yeah. But then you can trust each other, right? You have each other’s back, right? 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah, exactly.

 

Sarah Taylor:

We have a question from Sabrina. She’s going to talk. I’m going to allow you to speak. Go ahead, Sabrina. 

 

Sabrina:

Hello. Thank you so much for doing this. Anyways, my question was about cutting different genres. Do you find … is there a genre that you really, really want to cut, that you have yet to? Or do you find you can jump around fairly easily, or was it difficult to switch around? Do you find you get pigeonholed very easily if you stick to a certain genre and you’re not able to move around as easily? 

 

Nena Erb:

Oh, gosh. A few years ago, I was very deliberate in terms of picking a drama and picking comedy, and then in the last few years, there’s this new blend of comedy that has a lot of drama in it, like Insecure and similar to Crazy Ex, and something like a Little America, too. So, I’ve been trying to do that more, but I’ll tell you, I think it’s … even though it has both comedy and drama, I don’t know that a true drama, like something like Game of Thrones, would even look my way. And actually, I don’t really … I enjoy the Game of Thrones, but I don’t know if I would want to cut that, to be honest. But yeah, so a true drama, I don’t think, would come my way, which is unfortunate. So, yeah, I think people do get pigeonholed. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

How long are you in the edit suite, usually? 

 

Nena Erb:

It’s usually … I try to not go past 12, because then I’m just fried, but there are times when you have to do more than 12, depending on the deadline, if you have a shorter amount of time to turn in an episode or a scene over, but yeah, I try not to go past 12. It’s usually about 10, 11-ish, somewhere around there. Again, a lot of it’s going to depend on how many dailies you get. I’ve had directors that shoot nine hours of dailies. So, for someone like me that wants to watch everything, my days are going to be long. But then you have other directors that shoot three hours a day, then it’s like, oh, it’s perfect. I can watch it all. I can cut it, and I can be home for dinner. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yay! 

 

Nena Erb:

You know.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Do you do any color correcting when you edit? If so, do you have any tips for how someone new to that process should go about it? 

 

Nena Erb:

I don’t really do a lot of it. I will, if a scene … if the dailies come back and it’s not quite right, if it’s too dark, or I’ll probably just drop a color effect on it and up the gamma, just so you can see the image better. But yeah, typically I don’t do color correcting. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Are you typically involved in the color timing when it comes to it at the end? Are you in for that, or just for sound? 

 

Nena Erb:

Just for sound, yeah. I’ve been invited to color sessions on other shows, but on this show, it’s very much the TPs domain. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

That was a big … when I first started talking to editors down in L.A., it was a surprise that you were included in even the sound. That wasn’t something that often … sometimes you’re invited. Well, in my experience anyway. It wasn’t something that was part of the process. You just handed it off and then you were onto the next thing. It wasn’t part of the contract or anything like that. Then I heard editors getting to do that and I was like, well, that makes so much sense. Then now, there’s been a few times where I’ve gotten to and then, yeah, it’s been huge. So, I’m glad that that’s part of the process down in the States, but I’d be curious to hear what other editors in Canada have experienced, because yeah, I don’t think it’s as common. 

 

Nena Erb:

Well, I think it’s so important because there’s a few times where they’ll drop dialogue lines. I will often replace dialogue from another take, but put it in the mouth of … so, the videos from audio, and then in the mix, I’m like, wait a minute. That’s not the one I put in there. I think it’s important for editors to be able to mix because no one’s going to know, other than you. You’re the one that knows it the most.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, totally. When you’re in those sessions, are they taking your direction? Are you in control? Like, you and the director are in control of what’s happening? Can you say, “No, that’s wrong,” and like be okay with that? 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah, we usually screen it and then I jot down time code and notes, and then we go through the list of notes and we go to the time code, and they play it and they’re like, “Oh, okay. I see what you mean.” Then you know address it. Some people do it after I leave. Some people do it during. It just depends on how much time you have and all of the mixer. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

I think, also, sometimes … often things get like lost in the translation to the sound system, right? So, you’re like, “How did you … why did you change that?” And it’s like, oh, it just didn’t connect properly, or whatever, right? It’s a simple thing to change, but if you’re not there to do it … Do you have anything on the goal coming up in the future that you know of yet? 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah, potentially. Potentially. I’m not sure if I should talk about it just yet.

 

Sarah Taylor:

That’s fair. That’s fair. That’s good to hear that things are coming. That’s good. 

 

Nena Erb:

Yeah. Yeah, there’s production that’s slowly trickling back in. Of course, no one wants to be the first, so there’s always a show that’s going to be the first early adopter. So, we’ll see what happens. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. 

 

Nena Erb:

And hoping that no one gets sick and we can all go back to work, and yeah. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. It’s definitely … yeah. It’s been a long time. So, hopefully it all works out. It’s been really great. You’ve given us a lot of great advice and insight on your workflow and your process, and your mouse, which these are important things. We need to hear these things, and I’m looking forward to keeping my eyes open for the Emmy’s, to find out if you win. I’ll be cheering for you, regardless. Do you have any last advice, or any other last tips that you want to share with us before we call it a night? 

 

Nena Erb:

You know, I just think, yeah, just keep meeting people. This is such a great time right now, just to meet whoever you want. I would take advantage because I don’t know that we’re going to ever have such access to people that would normally be not within reach at all. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, totally, because they’d be in their edit suite for 12 hours a day, not able to talk to us on Zoom. So, thank you for letting me reach out to you and talk to you about one of my favorite shows, and for taking the time to chat, all things editing. I wish you the best of luck in the future. I hope that everything gets picked up. 

 

Nena Erb:

Thank you so much. 

 

Sarah Taylor:

And I’m so grateful that you took the time to spend with us today. So, thank you again, Nena. 

 

Nena Erb:

Well, thank you so much for having me, and thank you all for coming.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Good night, everybody. 

 

Nena Erb:

Bye.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Thank you so much for joining us today and a big thank you. goes to Nena for taking the time to sit with us. A special thanks goes to Jane MacRae, Jenni McCormick and Ruben Lim. The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall, additional ADR recording by Andrea Rusch. Original music provided by Chad Blain and Soundstripe. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. 

 

The CCE has been supporting Indspire – an organization that provides funding and scholarships to Indigenous post secondary students. We have a permanent portal on our website at cceditors.ca or you can donate directly at indspire.ca. The CCE is taking steps to build a more equitable ecosystem within our industry and we encourage our members to participate in any way they can.  

 

If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends to tune in. ‘Til next time I’m your host Sarah Taylor.

 

[Outtro]

The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member please visit our website www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

 

Subscribe Wherever You Get Your Podcasts

What do you want to hear on The Editors Cut?

Please send along any topics you would like us to cover or editors you would love to hear from:

Credits

A special thanks goes to

Jane MacRae

Nagham Osman

Jenni McCormick

Reuben Lim

Hosted and Produced by

Sarah Taylor

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Original Music by

Chad Blain

Soundstripe

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Sponsored by

Annex Pro/AVID

Categories
The Editors Cut

Episode 045 : Mental Health with Rebecca Day

Episode 045 - Mental Health with Rebecca Day

Episode 45: Mental Health with Rebecca Day

It’s been one year since our worlds have changed and we thought it was a good time to check in on our mental health.

This episode is sponsored by IATSE 891

Sarah Taylor sits down with psychotherapist Rebecca Day to talk about our mental health as creatives in the midst of a pandemic. 

Rebecca Day is a qualified psychotherapist and freelance documentary producer. She founded her company, Film In Mind in 2018 to address mental health in the film industry and has spoken at festivals such as Berlinale, IDFA, Getting Real Documentary Conference, WIFT and Sheffield DocFest on the issue. She offers therapeutic support and supervision to filmmakers working in difficult situations and with vulnerable people, as well as consultancies and workshops on mental health in the film industry. 

Her previous feature, Becoming Animal, directed by Emma Davie & Peter Mettler was a Scottish/Swiss co-production and premiered at CPH Dox in 2018. She is currently working with the impact team on Evelyn, an intimate and poignant film about death by suicide, made by academy award-winning director Orlando Von Eisendel at Grain Media and is producing a documentary with first-time feature director, Duncan Cowles titled, Silent Men.

For more info about Rebecca go to Film In Mind.

Another great mental health resource in Canada is Calltime: Mental Health. The site has a learning centre where you can take online courses about mental health as well as many resources. Links to help with general mental health, depression, anxiety, sleep, alcohol and addiction, suicide, BIPOC and LGBTQ+ resources. There is loads of information!

Listen Here

Sarah Taylor:

This episode is generously sponsored by IATSE 891.

Sarah Taylor:

Hello, and welcome to The Editor’s Cut. I’m your host, Sarah Taylor. We would like to point out

the lands on which we have created this podcast, and that many of you may be listening to us

from, are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we

are on ancestral territory that has long served as a place where indigenous peoples have lived,

met, and interacted. We honor, respect, and recognize these nations that have never

relinquished their rights or sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand

today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many

contributions, and the concerns that impact indigenous individuals and communities. Land

acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.

Sarah Taylor:

It’s been quite the year, right? Feel like it’s a good time to check in with our mental health, so

today, I’m bringing you a conversation I had with psychotherapist Rebecca Day. Rebecca’s a

qualified psychotherapist and freelance documentary producer. She founded her company, Film

in Mind, in 2018 to address mental health in the film industry. She has spoken at festivals such as

Berlinale, IDF, Getting Real documentary conference, WIFT, and Sheffield Doc/Fest on the issue.

She offers therapeutic support and supervision to filmmakers working in difficult situations and

with vulnerable people, as well as consultancies and workshops on mental health in the film

industry. Her previous feature, Becoming Animal, directed by Emma Davie and Peter Mettler,

was a Scottish-Swiss co-production and premiered at CPH:DOX in 2018. She’s currently working

with the impact team on Evelyn, an intimate and poignant film about death by suicide made by

Academy-Award-winning director Orlando von Einsiedel at Green Media and is producing a

documentary with first-time director Duncan Cowles, titled Silent Men.

[show open]

Sarah Taylor:

Rebecca Day, thank you so much for joining us today. You’re based in London, is that correct?

Rebecca Day:

Well, actually in the Lake District in the north of England. It’s not in a city, which is lovely.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, awesome! So thank you for joining us from all the way over the pond. Today, we’re going to

talk about mental health. We’re in a really trying time in the world, and I think it’s a good time to

check in and see how we’re all doing and maybe talk about things that can make our lives as

creatives a little bit easier. I’m really interested to learn about your journey, because you have a

company called Film in Mind, and you’re a psychotherapist, but you’re also a filmmaker. So can

you tell us a little bit about where you’re from, how you got into the film industry, and then how

Film in Mind came to be?

Rebecca Day:

Yeah, of course. Well, firstly, thank you for having me. It’s a real pleasure to be here. Yeah, I’ve

been working as a documentary producer for about… I think it’s coming on to 15 years, actually,

now. I’m still producing a little bit, but I’m pretty much almost full-time now as a

psychotherapist. I worked pretty much all in independent documentary, so feature-length films

being made for cinema, very tricky, challenging funding routes; tricky, challenging stories; lots of

really moving, emotional subject matter. Also, a really varied stuff over the years, and moving

around that independent international film circuit and just really getting to know the industry on

that level.

Rebecca Day:

During my time doing it, I guess there were just parts of the producing work that resonated with

me more than other parts, so it would be more of the emotional connection work, the outreach

and audience engagement stuff that I started working on, really appealed to me, and I wanted to

find out how I could connect with that more in the work that I was doing and sort of moving

away from some of the budgeting kind of stuff. Which I guess I was good at, but it didn’t really

speak to me from a passion perspective, I suppose, and I started my psychotherapy training a

few years ago, I think. 2016, I think it was, and qualified a couple of years later.

Rebecca Day:

And it was during that transition period that I started to make these connections between the

therapy world and the world of documentary in particular. I’m starting to see this with the fiction

world now as well, but at the time, it was very much about documentary, and it was this

realization that people making documentaries are immersing themselves in very much the same

difficult content, if I can use that word, because obviously, we wouldn’t use that word as a

therapist, but I can (as a) filmmaker. Subject matter, stories, being immersed with people in that

way, but without the support structures and without the training, really, to emotionally hold

themselves safe while doing that work.

Rebecca Day:

I’d experienced through colleagues, my own experience as well, and friends of mine, seeing

people drop out of the industry from burnout and exhaustion, or relationships breaking down

because we didn’t have the time to communicate effectively with each other, and a lot… I guess

lots of emotional strain that wasn’t being talked about that I then really wanted to address once

I’d gone through my training and realized that I kept writing about this in all of my essays. Yeah,

so it kind of came out of that, and then I created Film in Mind. I set it up as a private practice,

really, just reaching out to the film community and saying, “I’m here for therapy,” and it’s kind of

snowballed from there. I work with clients as a therapist, hourly sessions, weekly or fortnightly,

all around the world, all on Zoom. There’s not many filmmakers in the Lake District. And then

speaking on.. speaking in events and festivals and doing a little bit of training.. as well. So..Yeah,

it’s really varied and really rewarding work.

Sarah Taylor:

Do you find that a lot of your clients are actually in the film industry? Like did you really, like

they’ve tapped into that, and they’ve found you.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have a.. Yeah! I do work with clients who aren’t in the film industry as well,

but it’s a very small percentage of my work. The majority of my clients are… mostly directors, but

I do have a lot of other practitioners working in different departments coming for support as

well, and sometimes we focus completely on the work, and I’d say for the most part, you know,

it’s all the other stuff that life chucks at us that comes into the therapy as well.

Sarah Taylor:

Totally, yeah. I think it’s really interesting, and I’ve never really sat back to think about it, but as a

therapist, you’re trained on how to give yourself space and time to process and not to take on

other people’s stuff. That’s what I’m assuming. And as the documentary editor, I’m really digging

into these people’s stories, and they’re stories that are traumatic, and there’s all sorts of things

that we discover in the edit suite.

Sarah Taylor:

But yeah, we don’t have the tools to see that, “Oh, I’m feeling really stressed right now,” or, “I’m

feeling really anxious right now. Well, maybe it does have something to do with what I’m

working on, and it’s not just something’s wrong with me, but it’s how I’m consuming and

absorbing the information that I’m looking at all day long.” So I’m just commenting on how

fantastic it is that you saw that, and you decided, “I’m going to pursue this, and I’m going to help

people unpack all this information, and how do we protect ourselves?” And so I’m just curious, is

there something that you could suggest as a first way of maybe shifting our mindsets into how to

keep ourselves safe when we’re working on content that’s really challenging?

Rebecca Day:

Yeah, I think the first, most important thing is for us as a community to recognize that the work

we do is emotionally challenging. That’s the first part, because we seem to work in a culture

where we’re not allowed to admit it. It’s that sort of show-no-weakness kind of attitude, and it’s

not a weakness to say that when you’re sitting for hours editing really hard footage that that is

going to have a strain on you emotionally. That’s one of the first things we learn as therapists, is

don’t shy away from the work, but learn how to do it safely, because the work is always going to

be challenging, and if this is where you want to be, then there’s things that you can put in place

to make sure that you can show up for your clients. And I think for me, it just felt exactly the

same for filmmakers. It wasn’t saying, “Don’t do that work, because it’ll be too hard for you.” It’s

saying, “How can you do it in a way that keeps you strong and keeps you healthy and keeps you

really present in it?” And the first step of that is saying, “Oh, no, this is going to be difficult for

me, but that doesn’t make me weak.” It’s that recognition of it.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Yeah, and I think once you have those realizations, it’s things like, okay, well, I know that

the first few weeks of doing a new doc, when I’m looking through all the footage and really

getting to know what’s happening, I might not overbook myself, or I might need to make sure I

put in place things that make me feel good after I’m done working, or that sort of thing. But we

can’t do that until we acknowledge that yes, this is going to be challenging, and that is okay. So

that’s really great.

Sarah Taylor:

As you know, as a filmmaker, obviously, we aren’t in a career that is stable or constant. There’s

always stuff that’s happening where we don’t know when the next gig’s going to be, or we don’t

know how long the project might be, or now we’re in the middle of a pandemic that has been

almost a year. And so how do we, as creatives, stay healthy and avoid burnout or avoid

depression when we’re kind of always trying to catch the next thing in some ways?

Rebecca Day:

It’s a really good question, Sarah, because I think if you had asked me that question

pre-pandemic, my answer probably would’ve been quite similar. I think the pandemic has added

a layer onto what we were already experiencing. Especially in the doc world, we were starting to

recognize that we were in a mental health crisis before the pandemic hit, and conversations

around burnout and depression were happening, but they were happening very quietly and

behind the scenes. I think what the pandemic has allowed us to do is, in some ways, made us

realize how resilient we are because we are used to working with uncertainty.

Rebecca Day:

Some ways, we’ve actually been quite well-equipped to cope with this, because we’ve been used

to that sort of shifting world around us and never really knowing on, but in other ways, I’ve really

noticed as well that the industry just galvanized and were like, “Right, what can we do? How can

we survive this? How can we get through it?” And there was sort of this huge lead as well for a

pause and just to use the time that we had to… You know..When work was being canceled, and

all of that was happening, just to say, “This is time for you to kind of heal from the ten years, or

however long you’ve been working in the industry, to heal from all of that potential burnout that

you’ve been suffering,” and for people to notice where they were at, to take stock.

Rebecca Day:

And I’m hearing that had happened to lots of people, but on the flip side, there was also that

real FEAR of, “I CAN`T… I don’t feel creative. I can’t muster the energy to work on these projects

that I’ve been putting off and now have time to do,” or whatever we have been placed with…

And I think what we weren’t really talking about or recognizing is that we were all experiencing

some kind of collective trauma. I think we probably understand that a bit better now, but we

were kind of living in this sort of weird state of fear, quite prolonged, lengthy period of fear. Well,

when your brain is in sort of protective mode, actually can’t be creative. That part of your brain

shuts down, because it’s in survival mode.

Rebecca Day:

So I talked a lot at the beginning of the pandemic about just being kind to yourself and not

pushing yourself too hard and waiting for the creativity to come back, because your body kind of

needed to come back down to Earth and feel safe again before you could start being creative.

And it’s very possible that some people are still in that place.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s really… makes me think. Totally, that makes sense, and we put a lot of

pressure on ourselves, because it’s like, “Well, what else am I supposed to do right now? I’m

home. I can’t go anywhere. I should be able to make this thing, and I should be able to make it

really great, but I can’t.” So to hear, “Yeah, well, your brain is on overdrive, and you’re working

through something that is something we’ve never dealt with before.” And..Yeah… And I know for

some people, they were then trying to do their work and have their kids at home and have their

spouse at home, and maybe they had no one at home, and they were alone. So we’ve really had

to work through… a lot of heavy things, I feel, during this time.

Sarah Taylor:

On the flip side, though, it kind of, for me anyway, showed how important the work we do is,

how people then turn to the TV or to films to kind of maintain some sort of comfort. And we got

to see all these shows and binge-watch the shows that we never got to watch before because we

were too busy and learned stories from people that we didn’t necessarily know about before,

because we had this time to just kind of be. So for me, it made me proud of the work that I do

put out in the world, because sometimes, in a moment of crisis, a world crisis, people took time

to reflect and be in those moments with those films and those shows. So there’s two sides to

everything, I guess.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. I kind of touched on, some people were isolated and alone, and as editors, we typically do

work alone most of the time. So now, there’s people that are working alone and not able to see

people, so do you have any advice or tips about how to deal with that isolation and that

loneliness that’s happening normally, maybe, in our work, but also extra now because of the

pandemic?

Rebecca Day:

I guess it really depends on your living situation, doesn’t it, because some people might be

working alone in their job, but as soon as they finish, they’re then dialing into a noisy family and

all of that brings. So you might find that what you’re not getting is any head space to yourself.

And then there could be people with different experiences, who are living alone and are really

craving that human contact and I guess it’s about trying to make the most of the things that you

are allowed to do, whether it’s going for a walk with a friend… I can´t imagine for editors, it must

just feel exhausting, the thought of getting on Zoom and talking to a friend.

Sarah Taylor:

Yes.

Rebecca Day:

Having been on screen all day, and… Yeah, I definitely have Zoom fatigue, it became a thing quite

quickly, because I do all of my work on Zoom now. I find that going for a walk and having a phone

call instead was a really nice way to connect with people. I don’t know what it’s been like where

you are, Sarah, but we’ve always been allowed to exercise with one other person as well. I like

exercising on my own, because it gives me head space, but I’ve also used it as an excuse to meet

up with a friend and have a walk or a run, just to have some contact with someone. I guess it’s

about finding those ways that you can connect that also take you off the screen, which is really

hard.

Rebecca Day:

In the long term, when we’re not finding ourselves in a pandemic, loneliness and isolation is

something that filmmakers, not just editors, but directors and especially documentary makers,

obviously, because we work in really small teams, talk about a lot. Maybe the times they only

really connect with other people is when they go to a film festival, and one of the things that has

been really useful for me as a therapist, and I wish I’d had this when I was producing full time, is I

do peer-to-peer… We call it peer-to-peer supervision, but it’s really a catch-up with two or three

other therapists once a month, and we schedule it in monthly. We put two hours aside for it, and

we make sure that everyone has a chance to talk. So it’s useful to structure it so that if

somebody has an issue that they want to bring, something… so it’s not just a free-flowing

conversation, that there’s space for people to bring the thing that’s on their minds. That can be a

really useful sort of constructive but supportive place just to share and feel safe in doing that.

Sarah Taylor:

Especially as a freelance editor, for myself, I don’t work with other editors unless they are

working in their edit suite in their house or wherever they are, and that is the thing that I hear a

lot of people say that they miss about not working in a studio, and I think a lot of people who

had worked in studios pre-pandemic miss that you can go down the hall, and you can sit in the

edit suite, and you can say, “Hey, I just need a break from my screen,” or, “Hey, can you come

look at this edit?” So to actually give yourself the permission to schedule in time to be like, “Hey,

let’s watch my cut,” that’s brilliant. That’s such a great idea. I hope that people take that and do

it, because I think I’m going to have to implement that into my schedule.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah, I think so. And obviously, nobody’s getting paid for that time, but I see it as a really crucial

part of my work, you know.. To set that time aside. And if it’s once a month, it doesn’t feel like a

huge commitment out of your working schedule, but it feels really nourishing and important.

Sort of keep me steady.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. And I think we often get those kind of… I know when I go to, say… because before, with

the CCE, we would have pub nights, and we would get to talk shop, and we’d meet and have

different talks and stuff, and I would always get energized after that, because I got to sit with an

editor and talk about editing for three hours, and it was just the best thing ever. So yeah, to

implement that into your schedule and make that part of being an editor, yeah, that’s a brilliant

idea. Thank you for that one.

Rebecca Day:

You’re welcome.

Sarah Taylor:

Something else I think is really interesting and something I worked through as a freelancer is

setting boundaries of when I’m working and when I’m not working, and I think it’s really hard

right now, too, because a lot of people are working from home, to kind of blur the work time

with life time, and like, “Well, I’m here all day anyway. I’ll just work for 12 hours.” Do you have

any suggestions or ways of you know, setting boundaries for yourself, to say, “This is what’s good

for me,” and then being able to relay that to the directors or the producers you’re working with?

Rebecca Day:

Yeah. I mean, it’s easier said than done, isn’t it? But just set your working hours.

Sarah Taylor:Yes

Rebecca Day:

I would just really strictly set your working hours right at the very beginning when you establish

that relationship. You know that if things overrun or you’re working on something really that you

don’t want to step away from, and you want to continue for another hour, you as the editor then

have the choice about whether or not you want to extend for an hour or you know offer a couple

of hours over your weekend, if that’s what’s needed. You get to choose that. But if you set really

strict working hours, there are the ones you commit to, and then you have the choice and

flexibility of whether or not to play with those hours as and when it’s needed, but only when it

feels critical.

Rebecca Day:

You know, I’m really strict about my weekends. It helps that I have a child, so I kind of need to be,

you know but I do occasionally work at the weekends when I have to. But it is that moment

critical moment of, “What’s the benefit of doing this at the weekend if I can’t fit this into the

week?” So it has to be.. I have to kind of talk it through, mull it through, in my head and make

sure that my family’s okay with it and just have those really strict boundaries. Once you get into

the habit of it, it starts to feel very easy. It’s just breaking the habit of being available all the time.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, yeah. I think with technology being in our hands to answer the email or the thing, it is

really easy to just always be on. I found for myself I didn’t set those boundaries until I had a kid,

too, and then I was like, “Well, I can’t. I physically can’t be in my edit suite, because I have to take

care of my child.” So…

Rebecca Day:

I was just going to say about notifications, Sarah, one thing you could do is just turn your

notifications off, but maybe a more helpful thing, because I know people find that difficult, is I

turn off the description of the notification, so when it comes to my phone, I can see I have an

email, but I can’t see who it’s from or what’s in it, and I find that so helpful. Because then I’m

like, “Okay, there’s an email. I’ll choose to look at it when I.. I have time. But if you can see the

content, it’s really hard to step away from it then.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, yeah. Especially when you’re really excited about a project, and you’re like… there’s that

other side of it where you really want to actually do the work, but you need to allow yourself to

have time to reset and settle, I think.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Sometimes that’s even hard, when you’re really passionate about what you’re working on. You

might want to work all the time. Something you said earlier is not giving yourself mental space

for yourself, and I think sometimes we miss that. If you are a caregiver to children or you have

other responsibilities, you still have to incorporate time for just you. Because I know for myself,

sometimes, I’m like, “Oh, well, I worked for eight hours today. I was by myself. That’s me time.”

But it’s not me time, because I’m working, and I’m doing other things. I’m not doing just what I

need to do to be a full human. Do you have any thoughts on what we could do to allow ourselves

to have those times?

Rebecca Day:

Yeah, again, I guess it’s listening to your instincts, isn’t it? I understand what you’re saying,

especially when you talk about really enjoying your work, because I love my work. I’m so happy

to do the job that I do and to sit down at my desk and connect with people in this way, but that

doesn’t mean that I want to do it all of the time, and I still try to set those boundaries between

work, life, and that time that I need for myself. If I can feel myself getting irritable or too tired or

a bit detached from my work, that’s often a sign for me. It’s just either wanting the day to end or

not really being 100% present. That’s when I notice that, “Okay, I need to take an hour to myself

with nobody else and go for a walk or go for a run,” or whatever it might be. Or just cook with

nobody else around. Or you know… The weather’s getting warmer, gardening tends to be my

thing as well.

Sarah Taylor:

I just got into gardening last year, and I was like, “Why have I missed this all these years? It’s so

relaxing.” I loved it.

Rebecca Day:

Me too. Yeah, it was last year for me as well. Through the lockdown.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, the lockdown brought out all sorts of things that we could invest in or look into.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

We talked a little bit about this earlier, about working on traumatic content. Do you have a

suggestion on if we know… “Okay, I’m going to start this project, and I know it’s going to be really

heavy.” Is there a way of looking at it or prepping ourselves to feel like we have more control of

our emotional state while we’re working on something that’s very dramatic?

Rebecca Day:

I think it’s really wise to say to yourself that yeah, you could be traumatized from working on

this. And again, the same as I said before, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it, but there’s

things that you can put in place to make sure that you’re resilient through it. The first question to

ask is, “Am I likely to be traumatized because this is really challenging, or am I likely to be

traumatized, or am I doing this project, because I relate to the trauma?” Because if there is

something I’ve known from a lot of people are drawn to work because it’s something they see

themselves in or a subject they’re familiar with. If that’s the case, and it’s a processed for you, I

wouldn’t say, “Don’t do it,” but I would say, “Make sure that you’ve processed it emotionally first,

or at least while you’re working on the project.” And the best way to do that is with a therapist.

They’re hard questions to ask. They’re big questions to ask yourself, but you don’t want to

potentially be re-traumatized or traumatized in the middle of that work. I don’t know if the

editing world talks about vicarious trauma very often.

Sarah Taylor:

I don’t think I’ve ever heard that phrase, so tell us. Tell us more.

Rebecca Day:

It’s not something we talk about usually in the film industry, but it’s second time trauma.

Therapists obviously understand this quite well, the idea that you can be traumatized from

sitting with someone else’s trauma, from supporting someone, or helping someone else cope

with their own trauma. Which I realize editors aren’t communicating directly with the people

who might be revealing their trauma in the footage, but you’re witnessing it over and over and

over again quite repetitively as well. So vicarious trauma is a very real risk, and there’s certain

ways that you can notice that might be happening.

Rebecca Day:

The first and most simple thing is a mood check. If you’ve finished a day of editing, and you’ve

stepped away from the computer, are you coming away with rage, or sadness, or anger that feels

out of proportion to how you normally might feel? And it could be that you’re holding onto

something. The other feeling you could have is feelings of guilt. Say, if you’re working on

something like a climate change documentary, or something like that, or something that’s sort of

speaking to the politics of our time, and you’re sitting there with all that guilt, what’s happening

in the world, and again, it’s out of proportion to how you might normally feel about something.

You’re holding all of that, and you’re not able to switch off from your work. That’s another

indication of vicarious trauma. The other thing to be wary of that you can notice is detachment.

So, if you feel yourself having no emotions to it, detaching from it, again, that’s the brain’s way of

saying, “This is too much.” You don’t want to be surrounded by it.

Sarah Taylor:

So if you notice those things, any of those four, I think you said, what should you do?

Rebecca Day:

I think you should ask yourself if you’re getting enough breaks. Are you working seven days a

week? Because if you are, that’s probably not wise. Are you stepping away from your computer,

even if it’s just for five minutes every hour, to just make sure that you have a break from the

screen and just to clear your head? Are you eating enough? Are you sleeping enough? And then

lastly, do you need extra support? So, wherever that’s speaking to a therapist, or again, that idea

peer-to-peer supervision would be really helpful in that sense. I’m also working with filmmakers

in a supervisory way as well, so where it’s not the personal that they’re bringing to the therapy,

but it’s completely work-related. So looking at projects and the effects that they’re having on

you. Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

So if you’re working on a film that you know is going to be something heavy, you could have

somebody like you on hand and be like, “Okay, I’m starting to feel detached, or I’m starting to

feel whatever it might be. I think I need to talk to this.”

Rebecca Day:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah. It’s a step towards normalizing it, isn’t it?

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, yeah, and knowing that, “Oh, I can listen to myself, and I can step away,” because again, in

this industry, and I feel like a lot of it’s shifting because of us being in a moment of reflection

with COVID, that we are like, “Get it done, go, go, go. Get it as much as we can cut out. You

know?” And we are not looked at necessarily as humans with emotions. You work your 12-hour

day, you work seven days a week, because we have a deadline, and there’s notes to do, or

whatever. And this is why I want to talk about this stuff, so that we can normalize it, like you say,

to normalize that we do, are going to feel things, and that that’s normal and that we can get the

supports we need, if we continue to talk about it.

Rebecca Day:

Absolutely. I think the need for normalizing it is so, so important. In terms of long working hours,

you know as a therapist, I have a set number of clients that I would see in a day, and however in

need somebody is, I won’t squeeze in another appointment, because I have to have the energy

to be there for them. It’s more dangerous for me to show up for a client and be exhausted and

without the energy to actually engage with them than it is to squeeze them in. You know? And

so those sorts of boundaries are so important, and I think it really applies here in filmmaking as

well, in terms of energy levels that you have for your edit. So if you’re working 12 hours a day,

seven days a week, I would suggest that you’re probably working at half your capacity during

some of that time.

Sarah Taylor:

For sure!

Rebecca Day:

To reduce that, you might be working at 75% of your capacity rather than 50%.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, that’s something that I noticed. I started to really tune into myself and be like, “Okay, well,

this is when I’m the most creative, so let’s do this type of work when I’m most creative.” The

theory of working smarter instead of working harder, and I think we, by, again, talking about it

and sharing how you work as an editor can allow other people to take that time to reflect and be

like, “Oh, well, when am I the most creative? Maybe I do work best at one in the morning

because I’m a night owl,” or whatever. And just to be like, “That’s how I work, and that’s how I do

my best work, and I don’t have to be working for 12 hours a day, because I’m going to be sitting

there for six just zoning out at the screen and not actually doing anything.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, I think we as creatives and as editors have to take that time to just reflect and be like,

“Well, what’s best that I can bring to the job to do the best job I can do?” And definitely, for me,

no more than eight hours in the edit suite, because I’m not productive anymore.

Rebecca Day:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Another thing that we as freelancers, because a lot of editors are freelancers, we usually

get work through word of mouth, and going to events and networking, and meeting new

producers or directors, and now we can’t do that, and a lot of people have been kind of forced to

try to network online. So I don’t know if you have any ideas or thoughts on how to be more

comfortable, even just selling yourself and being like, “I do this work. I’m really good,” but also

doing it online.

Rebecca Day:

It’s really hard, isn’t it? Because I’m not naturally comfortable online either. And thankfully,

because there’s not many of us doing this work as therapy for film, there’s not a huge amount of

competition for me at the moment, so I don’t have to do an awful lot of marketing, which is a

real relief, because I’d be terrible at it. So I really sympathize with that. I really miss film festivals.

I love going to those places and just those spontaneous meetings that you have with people that

lead to really fulfilling working relationships.

Rebecca Day:

It is something that will start again. I know it will, I just don’t know when, and I know everyone

else feels the same, so I guess all we can do at the moment is just show up for the online stuff if

it feels useful, and to know that if you’re going to show up and can’t find the opportunity to

speak, then maybe it’s not the most useful thing for you. But also, I guess there’s something

about being proud of the work that you’ve done and shouting about it if you can, if that’s what

you want to do. I know a lot of people feel quite awkward about that, don’t they? About going

online, going on Instagram or Facebook or whatever the platform is that you use and saying, “I

worked on this amazing documentary,” and really owning the role that you had in that, whatever

film it was that you made. Maybe that’s where we need to be a little bit louder and a little bit

more confident. I don’t have a brilliant answer for that one, I’m afraid.

Sarah Taylor:

Well, even that’s helpful. I’ve found over the time… We..I was introduced to you through a panel

at a random virtual coffee with filmmakers, and I was like, “Well, I’ll just go.” And my plan when I

went to that event was to just do some work and listen, and then it was actually really engaging,

and I was just into it. So sometimes, you can actually find those moments via this weird Zoom

world, that we can.. Somebody might say something that sparks something, and we can.. it’s

almost like we have the permission even more so now to just be like, “Hey, can I connect with

you? Because..you know? Can I have your email? Can we exchange later?” And we can connect

with people from around the world in our house, which is nice, but we have to still put ourselves

in that situation in order to make those connections.

Which, I guess in reality, even we’d still have to go to the event to go and network in person,

which can be really challenging, too, and a little nerve-racking, especially… often as editors, like

we said earlier, we work by ourselves, and we might work with a huge team of people, but we’ve

never met them. So we go to these events, and you’re like, “I worked on this film. Hey, I worked

with your footage,” or, “I saw your name in the credits. I put your name in the credits, but I’ve

never met you.” And to have that courage to go up and say, “Hi, this is who I am,”. It also, I think

that even extends to posting about what you work on and being like, “Hey, this is what I did.”

Again, giving yourself permission to just be proud of what you do and how you contribute to

stuff.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah. And knowing how you feel comfortable communicating and socializing as well, because I

notice that since I’ve been working in the film industry as a therapist, I feel a lot more confident

in myself than I did as a producer. I always felt that I wasn’t loud enough as a producer. I’m

naturally quite a quiet person, and for some reason, that’s more acceptable in the role. I feel like

it’s more acceptable now than when I was a producer, and so I’ve just become more at ease, I

think, with my voice and how I can use it in a way that I was as a producer. So I guess it’s

knowing yourself in that way as well, and saying, “How far am I willing to go out of my comfort

zone?”

Sarah Taylor:

Something else that I’ve encountered over the years is a lot of… I guess this kind of relates to

cheerleading for yourself, but the negative self-talk we often have as creatives, where it’s like,

“Oh, this isn’t going to be good. I don’t know what I’m doing.” Every project’s different, and

there’s always challenges, and how to maybe deal with what you might be telling yourself when

you’re in the midst of doing something, and the creativity it’s not there? Especially this year,

where you were mentioning earlier how our brains weren’t being creative because we were in

trauma. So how can we practice speaking to ourselves better?

Rebecca Day:

I really like that question. I think kindness goes a long way, and the kindness that you offer

yourself, as well as the kindness that you need and are hopefully receiving from other people.

Getting to know your critical voice is a really crucial thing. Everyone has one, but some people’s

critical voice is a lot louder than others, I think. I attended a training course recently, and we did

a little bit of work on the inner critic. There were 120 people in the course, and everyone was

communicating over the chat box on Zoom, and when they moved on to the inner critic part,

they asked us, you know, we did a sort of self-reflection exercise on our critical voice, and you

were asked to identify it. Get to know it. Could you describe it?

And it was amazing the amount people that were like, “Yes, it’s me when I was ten,” or, “Oh, it’s

my mother,” or, “It’s my…” And… Really how intimately people knew it when they were

prompted in the right way, of going, “Where is that criticism coming from, and how can I

challenge it kindly?” So not shut it down. It’s there for a reason. Imagine a world where you

didn’t have a critic. We’d all be enormous egos. It’s there for a reason, but if it’s dominating,

what does it need? How can you sort of talk to it in a compassionate way to try and reduce that

criticism down so it’s not destabilizing for you, or paralyzing? Again, useful with a therapist.

Sarah Taylor:

Yes. Yeah. You’ll learn those things. Well, that does bring to me the question of what kind of tips

do you have for self-care for creatives and for keeping ourselves healthy and well in our mind

during normal being in this industry and also amidst a pandemic?

Rebecca Day:

Yeah, I think I’ve said to you before that there’s… We’ve talked about a lot of this already, I think,

in the podcast.

Sarah Taylor:

I think so, yeah.

Rebecca Day:

About self-care and setting boundaries, stepping away from the screen, finding the thing that

relaxes you. Don’t listen to your friend or Instagram or your parents who think you should be

doing the thing that works for them. I mean, it’s nice to get tips and advice, and you can take

that and try things, but it might not be the thing for you. So the important thing is when you

discover something that relaxes you, do that thing, because for everybody, it’s different. Like you

and I were talking about gardening. We only discovered that last year, and I find it so soothing,

and I can’t even really describe why. Sometimes, I can go for a run, and it can make me feel really

anxious, and other times, it can make me feel great, and it’s just knowing what I need in that

moment as well. So there’s not just one thing that works, it’s, “What do I need right now, in this

moment?”

That’s always a really good question, “Is the thing that I’m about to do what my body is asking

for, or does it need to be something else?” Because sometimes we’re too exhausted to exercise,

but that’s often the go-to kind of thing, and maybe you just need to curl up and read a book or

cook yourself some nice, healthy food. It’s different for everybody, but just allowing yourself that

question, “What do I need right now in this moment to feel more stable?” or calmer, or whatever

it is that you’re going through, is that first step, I think. The self-care is every day. Something

every day to take care of yourself is really important.

Sarah Taylor:

That’s key, hearing you say “every day,” because I feel like often, we… go to the… “Oh, I guess I

should pause,” when you’re already at that state of almost at the end, almost about to burn out,

or almost about to break down, or whatever. You’re like, “Whoa, I should go to the gym, or I

should whatever…” But just like you say, with that peer-to-peer support, like, maybe schedule

yourself in. Like, “Okay, I’m gonna give myself… It doesn’t matter what time of the day, but I need

to give myself an hour to just do whatever feels right for today,” to give yourself that space.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Can people from Canada or around the world reach out to you if they find what you’ve said in

this episode helpful and maybe want to work with you on the therapy side of things?

Rebecca Day:

Yeah. Yeah, they absolutely can. You could… I’m a little bit active on Instagram, I guess. You can

contact me that way, but my email is on my website, filminmind.co.uk. I couldn’t get .com,

annoyingly. So yeah, I can be contacted that way. I’m hoping to have some other therapists that I

can work with soon, because I’m getting very busy. But yeah, if you know of any

editors-turned-therapists out there, then let me know. Maybe we should have somebody

specifically with it.

Sarah Taylor:

That would be amazing! Hey, any listeners out there who are editors-turned-therapists, we have

a new colleague.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, it’s a natural progression, it seems. I think I’ve used this phrase quite

a lot, but I do find that this industry naturally attracts people who are very compassionate and

caring, so I’m not surprised often that a lot of people who’ve worked in the creative roles end up

moving into therapy.

Sarah Taylor:

Well, there’s a thing that a lot of editors say, is that the edit suite is a therapy room, because we

deal with the emotions and feelings of the directors we work with, and so in a way, yeah. We’ve

already listening to everybody’s problems. We obviously don’t have the training, which is why it’s

important to talk about this stuff.

Rebecca Day:

That’s an interesting thing to bring up, Sarah, and I don’t know if you were about to close there,

but just the idea of caring for others as well, because it’s not just the subject matter that you’re

sitting with. It is the fact that you’re often sitting in the room as the person that the director can

talk to about what they’re going through, and that is exhausting. You are sitting in the therapist’s

chair then, but without anywhere to take it, and you can’t be that person for the director as well

as working through all of that footage. I mean, of course a relationship needs to be established,

but when we’re talking about boundaries, that needs to be really clear as well in that

relationship, because it has to be healthy and working. So if it’s exhausting you, then maybe

there needs to be a conversation about where else you can both get some extra support from.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. I think it’s interesting, because in the doc world, often the filmmaker can be part of the

documentary, right? They’re the ones that… they’re searching for whatever answers there are.

And so I’ve definitely experienced seeing directors work through their own stuff as… It is a form

of therapy for them to tell the story that they’ve been meaning to tell or wanting to tell, and they

go through a transformation. And you, as their editor, you’re joining them. You’re seeing it

happen. You’re seeing it unfold.

And I know for myself, it’s hard not to take some of that on, because I think in some ways, too,

some of the personalities of people who are in the role of editor, we do feel emotion deeply, and

which is, I think, why we’re drawn to this type of work. So, yeah..What we’ve talked about, I

think, is really helpful that you know. Acknowledge that that’s happening. Ask the questions, or

ask for help. Or, yeah, set the boundary, like, “I can’t talk about this right now. I’m not in the right

space to talk about this right now,” or whatever it might need to be. But to know that you have

control to do that and that it’s safe for you.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah. Something about it being… “Oh, this feels like a bigger conversation outside of what we

need to achieve today, so how can this happen for you?” Because you’re working with the

director at their most vulnerable, I think, in the edit room. Their whole film is sitting there before

them. The both of you are responsible for putting it together, and they’re bringing all of their

emotion and sometimes years and years of filming that material into the room.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. These are the things that we maybe don’t realize, don’t think about, don’t talk about, but

have a huge impact on what we deal with and go through every day.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

I don’t know. Maybe for some people, because we haven’t been able to have in-person edit

sessions with our directors and whatever this year as often, maybe… I’m curious if people have

noticed a difference in how they feel, because maybe they’re not having to have that role of

therapist to the person anymore, and that kind of thing.

Rebecca Day:

Wonder if you’ve experienced increased anxiety from your directors for being…

Sarah Taylor:

Farther?! In some ways, people have had to adjust, and then it’s also a moment where people

are like, “Oh, it does work. It’s okay. We can still do this. It’s okay.” And I feel like for me, I like to

work alone on stuff, and then I’ve had people who… “No, I want to sit with you for the eight

hours,” and I’m like, “But I don’t like that…” And now, it’s like, “Oh, no, she can still do the job,”

or, “We can still get it done,” and schedule two hours to do the thing. But every editor’s

different, and every director/producer’s different.

Sarah Taylor:

But I know for myself during this whole thing of the pandemic and also being a freelancer for…

I’ve been working on my own for almost 12 years, and so I know how I work, and I know how I

operate now, and having this time to really just be like, “No, this is how I need to do things, and

this is good, and I’m glad that I know…” It’s kind of given me more confidence, in a way, to be

like, This is how I can get things done at the best that I can get them, and now I have had the

time to figure it out, and that’s good. And, so just letting ourselves have the time and to not have

to take every project on and be constantly working, to give the time to actually look inside.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah. And then ask for what you need as well..

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Day:

State the terms for how you are at your most productive and your most creative and your best.

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

I think that’s the biggest thing I learned recently, was to say, “I work the best by doing this, and

to provide you the best edit, this is how I can do it for you. And if that works for you, then we can

work together. If that doesn’t work for you, then maybe I’m not the editor for you.” But to allow

yourself to… And sometimes, you can’t do that. Sometimes you need to take a job because you

need the money, but to know what your ideal is and to be able to voice that.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah. But normally, you find that the more confident you are about that, people have a lot of

faith in that. They really do.

Sarah Taylor:

Totally. Well, this has been really enlightening, and you’ve given me some things to think about. I

just want to thank you for taking the time.

Rebecca Day:

You’re welcome. Thank you so much for having me.

Sarah Taylor:

It’s been fantastic. Thank you so much, and I will make sure that I link your website into the show

notes, and hopefully, you don’t get too much more busy, but yes. Thank you for supporting our

community.

Rebecca Day:

Yeah. No, if anyone needs to reach out for some advice. That’s always welcome. It’s always good

to hear from people, and the aim is for this type of support to become really normal and

standard practice within our industry, so the more we’re talking about it, the more we’re

reaching out, and the more support I can provide for people, the better, really. This is just the

beginning of it. So..Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

Rebecca Day:

Thanks for having me. It was really nice to talk.

Sarah Taylor:

Thanks so much for joining us today, and a big thank you goes to Rebecca for sharing such

wonderful information. If you would like to learn more about Rebecca, head to her website at

www.filminmind.co.uk. Another great resource here in Canada is called Calltime: Mental Health.

The site has a learning center where you can take online courses about mental health as well as

many resources. Links to help with general mental health, depression, anxiety, sleep, alcohol and

addiction, suicide, and BiPOC and LGBTQ+ resources. There’s loads of information. Just head to

calltimementalhealth.com. Special thanks goes to Jane MacRae. The main title sound design was

created by Jane Tattersall, additional ADR recording by Andrea Rusch. Original music provided by

Chad Blain. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao.

The CCE has been supporting Indspire – an organization that provides funding and scholarships to

Indigenous post secondary students. We have a permanent portal on our website at cceditors.ca

or you can donate directly at indspire.ca. The CCE is taking steps to build a more equitable

ecosystem within our industry and we encourage our members to participate in any way they

can.

If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends

to tune in. ‘Til next time I’m your host Sarah Taylor.

[Outtro]

The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture

editing. If you wish to become a CCE member please visit our website www.cceditors.ca. Join our

great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

Subscribe Wherever You Get Your Podcasts

What do you want to hear on The Editors Cut?

Please send along any topics you would like us to cover or editors you would love to hear from:

Credits

A special thanks goes to

Jane MacRae

Jana Spinola

Hosted, Produced and Edited by

Sarah Taylor

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Original Music by

Chad Blain

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Sponsored by

IATSE 891

Categories
The Editors Cut

Episode 043: In Conversation with Jeremy Harty, CCE & Cory Bowles on the film Black Cop

he Editors Cut - Episode 043

Episode 43: In Conversation with Jeremy Harty, CCE & Cory Bowles on the film Black Cop

This episode is the online master series that took place on July 21st, 2020.

This episode was generously Sponsored by Filet Production Services & Annex Pro/Avid

The Editors Cut - Episode 043 - Black Cop group photo

The CCE partnered with BiPOC TV and film to bring you In Conversation with Jeremy Harty, CCE and Cory Bowles about the movie Black Cop. On its release in 2017, Black Cop garnered critical acclaim as an unapologetic challenge of race and police. With a range of visuals from body cam to camera phones – dash cam to traditional camera work, Black Cop made use of multiple techniques to bring a fast paced hyper connected narrative to life. Edited by Jeremy Harty, CCE and was the directorial debut for Cory Bowles. 

This event was moderated by Shonna Foster.

Listen Here

Sarah Taylor:

This episode was generously sponsored by Filet Production Services and Annex Pro Avid. Hello and welcome to the Editor’s Cut. I’m your host Sarah Taylor. We would like to point out that the lands on which we have created this podcast and that many of you may be listening to us from are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we are on ancestral territory that has long served as a place where indigenous peoples have lived, met, and interacted.

Sarah Taylor:

We honor, respect, and recognize these nations that have never relinquished their rights or sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many contributions, and the concerns that impact indigenous individuals and communities. Land acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.

Sarah Taylor:

Today’s episode is the online master series that took place on July 21st, 2020. CCE partnered with BIPOC TV and Film to bring you in conversation with Jeremy Harty CCE and Cory Bowles about the movie Black Cop. On its release in 2017, Black Cop garnered critical acclaim as an unapologetic challenge of race and police. With a range of visuals from body cam to camera phones, cam dash, to traditional camera work, Black Cop made use of multiple techniques to bring a fast-paced hyper-connected narrative to life.

Sarah Taylor:

Black Cop was edited by Jeremy Harty CCE. It was the directorial debut for Cory Bowles. This panel was moderated by Shonna Foster.

[show open]

Shonna Foster:

Thank you, everybody, for joining us today. Of course thank you, Cory and Jeremy and the CCE for hosting this. I’m very excited. It’s my first time moderating something. See how it goes.

Jeremy Harty:
My first time attending one, so.

Shonna Foster:

Excellent. We’re in the same boat, Jeremy. I guess I’m going to assume maybe that everybody’s watched the movie, but for those who haven’t, my little spiel about Black Cop is it’s a film which explores racial profiling and police violence through its main character Black Cop played beautifully by Ronnie Rowe, who goes through an entire work shift interacting with people and choosing to treat white civilians that he encounters the way that black people are often treated by the police.

Shonna Foster:

The film incorporates archival footage, as well as dash cam, body cam, and cell phone footage to tell the story almost entirely from the POV of Black Cop. What I most appreciate about this film is how

unapologetic it is and how it’s strategic and unconventional in the way that it handles insular moments of Black Cop. Just a black man, in general, moving to the world, whether he’s in uniform or not.

Shonna Foster:

I love that Black Cop truly takes up the space in this film, and that it’s us, like we’re invited to live in his head and in his car and in his space and experience his life through his own vantage point as we go on this journey with him. I guess we can start there, a kind of two-part question. So a lot of the film is internal dialogue and monologue. Those are several moments where he’s speaking directly to camera and I guess I would like to know what challenges did this present in the editing process?

Shonna Foster:

In discussing that, did you craft the story around the running monologue when you were in the cutting room and how did that all go down?

Jeremy Harty:

Really, this is Cory’s vision, so I went with his lead. There were times where we were doing little bits and messing around on certain sections, because he had a copy of all the footage and I had a copy of all the footage. We came to certain things that maybe my perspective being a white male, being out of the process I could ask him things, because I haven’t lived the life of a black person in these troubling times and stuff. I had to like fall back on him.

Jeremy Harty:

I’d like to think, maybe, that sometimes I could bring a different perspective to certain things too. It was a good collaboration though, I think. I’m not really great at answering questions, because I don’t get out much. I stay here behind my desk and I’ve got a wall of monitors here and a desk that rises, so when people come in the room they can’t see me and this is new for me.

Cory Bowles:
That’s true about the wall. There’s a wall just behind you.

Jeremy Harty: Yeah.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. It was a really good collaborative process. I find it when I’ll explain certain things to Jeremy and I have a hard time articulating exactly what it is that I want. So, a lot of times we’ll play around and he might say, “Well, why don’t you show me kind of what you want with an edit?” Then, he’ll take it and sort of tighten it, flip it, turn it, give me some things, and then I find a lot of the discovery of the piece, obviously, for anyone that’s interested in making films, a lot of the movie is built, that’s your third part, basically, your edit is making sometimes a whole new movie.

Cory Bowles:

So, with this one it’s always surprising and we really push each other to get something new. It always changes as well, because we had such good performances by Ronnie, we were like, “How do we

enhance his performance and pull it out even more?” It can get frustrating, because you have all these great options when you have-

Jeremy Harty:

A lot of great options. This is the first dramatic piece that I’ve done that’s been this long, and seeing Ronnie on camera and seeing all the dailies and stuff, it was really nice to have the options that we had. Even when he’s not speaking his face is just speaking volumes. He’s just got that presence of him. It’s really strong, really strong. Amazing casting, so lucky to get him. But Cory has that ability of… He’s worked with enough different people in all the aspects of his life that he can bring them in when he has a project and this was the big first one. Hopefully, not the last.

Shonna Foster:

Not at all. Off that note, Jeremy, so Cory, he described your relationship as one where you both push each other as much as you can in the process. He shared with me that you are a cinephile who will often use references from classic movies to inform your process, and that you also do research on films that a director likes. What were some of the references you may have used for this film and from those references, what are the elements that would have influenced cutting this film?

Jeremy Harty:

Really, Cory’s the lead for that. I like to watch a lot of different films, and basically, because I’m cutting comedy all the time, I find that watching more and more comedy, so it doesn’t really relate to this, but when Cory says, “Okay. There’s this film, there’s this scene that I’d like to talk about. They did this and that film.”

Jeremy Harty:

I would go with him and whatever library of stuff he was talking about, I tried to watch them all again just to get a refresher of what’s going on. There’s so many things you can cherry pick little bits from other films that are out there and stuff. I really just look to him for that kind of stuff.

Jeremy Harty:

Then, I like to noodle things in the suite and mess around. I’m trying not to curse here. I tend to curse like a sailor. But I’m pulling it back as best possible. There’s certain things… One memory I have is I was listening to different songs on iTunes one day while I was cutting and looking through dailies and stuff, and a song was recommended in my iTunes list, and I really gravitated towards it.

Jeremy Harty:

Then, I played it to Cory and he was like… You should tell the story, man, because you got the connection there.

Shonna Foster: Yeah.

Cory Bowles:
Which one is it? You had a lot of songs lined-

Jeremy Harty:
Well, it’s the Zeal & Ardor stuff.

Cory Bowles:
Oh, yeah. Well, I loved Zeal & Ardor too. It was like-

Jeremy Harty:

But I’ve never known about them that like from you and I just heard them by chance in my iTunes stream.

Cory Bowles:

Right. Yeah. They ended up basically almost soundtracking the whole movie. I just reached out to them and asked if I could use a song, and then Aaron took over, our producer, and was like, “Let’s get a jam.” All of a sudden we had… His whole album was ours for free almost. I think we made them take money from us. They were giving it to us for free.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. I guess was that [inaudible 00:08:00]. I mean there’s so many music stories, I didn’t even know that one. I just remember when you were throwing me like beans and cornbread, some other tunes like-

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. Well, how did I get that in my head? I don’t know. It’s been a while like the Zeal & Ardor stuff is really what struck me, and then we’ve had… There were other sections that we tried some of their other songs and they stuck into. Then, you had some other songs that you were working on because you write and you do your own stuff too.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. It’s funny because I remember going after Charles Bradley song for the very first part. It was how long for the… I remember not being able to let go of that song. I remember calling up, at that time, we were so excited, because we were just calling up people out of the blue and being like, “Can we use your songs?” Explain in the thing.

Cory Bowles:

People are like, “Yeah. Sure, man.” Publishing is going to be cool with it. If anyone makes a movie, and it’s really hard to secure music. We didn’t have the time or the money to actually like… We had a music supervised. We didn’t really have the time or money to go through these insane label contracts. We were just like, “Look, can you like… We will give you kit back, whatever you need, but can we use the song?” I remember that how long song at the beginning, I was so married to it-

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. You had it in the cut for a while, man. You were like not letting go. You’re like, “Oh, we’re going to get it. We’re going to get it.”

Cory Bowles:

Then, they-

Jeremy Harty:
Let’s have an alternate.

Cory Bowles:

… they stayed shape. They’re like, “Yeah. We want 35k for the song.” I was like, “Well, that’s more than my lead actor is going to make and that’s like one third-“

Jeremy Harty:
That’s more than the post budget.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. He’s like, “[inaudible 00:09:30] part of my movie?” I was like, “Take a hike, man. Give it to us for free if you’re going to be like that much. I’ll give you some…” They were like, no. Then, I was… Zeal & Ardor to the rescue. It actually ended up being a stronger song with black spiritual death metal. It was really nice. It’s always fun when we lay music in to tracks. We always experiment quite a bit.

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. Like in the workout scene, just like changing the cuts a few frames here to land on certain beats and stuff like that. Sometimes I’m not 100% sure whether or not my system is perfectly in sync. I’m looking to Cory saying, “Does that seem like bang on to the beat for you and, or on the offbeat?”

Jeremy Harty:

I’m not musically inclined, but Cory was like, “Dude, you got that on the offbeat.” I’m like, “I don’t know what the heck you’re talking about, man. I just cut it because it kind of worked for me. That’s it.” But that was a fun scene. Yeah. I also have a copy of the film here if you want me to pull up anything too, Cory. We can show people or two.

Cory Bowles:
Oh, yeah. Oh, you know what? If you want to show the workout scene, that’s great.

Jeremy Harty:
Yeah. We can show anything, man.

Shonna Foster:
We could show the whole movie.

Cory Bowles:

This was right after he gets profiled. So, this is like the sort of triggering incident in the movie where a Black Cop gets profiled, if anyone hasn’t seen it. Then, after he stands for… We have a two-minute scene where he’s just standing and he’s recollecting, and it’s everything coming to a head, and then the next scene we show him venting out his energy and we put it on…

Cory Bowles:

Actually, the first song we got for Zeal & Ardor, which is the Devil is Fine. Which we even named our company after the song. Yeah. This was a fun one to cut and play music to. It was a really strong scene.

Jeremy Harty:
I have it kind of queued up here.

Speaker 12:
[crosstalk 00:11:14] (singing)

Speaker 13:
My dad used to say that a change in attitude is due to blacks-

Shonna Foster:
Can we talk a little bit about the scene before the one going, the one where he gets profiled?

Jeremy Harty: Yeah.

Shonna Foster:

Can you talk a little bit about cutting that process? What’s very interesting about this scene is you don’t really see the cops who… We never see the cops who stop him in full, and can you talk a little bit about that choice and what it was like cutting that? Because there’s focus on elements of them, but we never get to experience who those men are, we’re really focused on just Black Cop himself, and so how did you choose, Cory, the things you were going to focus on in that scene?

Cory Bowles: Okay.

Shonna Foster:
Like hands and radios and these sorts of things.

Cory Bowles:

Sure. That whole scene is an example of the collaboration of the whole team. I had a certain way that I knew what I wanted going into that scene, and the main thing I wanted was to focus on his confusion, the frustration, the fear, and what it’s like in that moment and how where someone is like, “Oh, you’re just being pulled over by the police.”

Cory Bowles:

It’s like, no, what’s really happening to you at that moment and what’s that, so many things. So my original way I wanted to shoot it was just basically never seeing the cops. I always just wanted to keep it on him. I wanted to do the thing where I pushed in close. The cinematographer, Jeff Wheaton, who had come with this scene. We need to do really extreme close-ups. We need really hard stuff.

Cory Bowles:

He’s like, “I want to slow down the frames. I want to like really pop in.” Then, we were able to sort of… Once I knew what he was trying to interpret, I was like, “Okay. We went with him and we just played that night.” It was a lot of times where I’d be like never put this person in focus. We’d be like pop into the mouth, get the car.

Cory Bowles:

Then, I think we ran the scene quite a long time. It was really challenging. When it came time to cut, that’s where it was like, “Okay. We’re going to from a nice free scene into something really claustrophobic and something panicky.” We played with that, actually, in different cities. Yeah. We spent a long time-

Jeremy Harty:
There was a lot on that one. Yeah.

Cory Bowles:

It might have been the first scene, the first actual thing we really spent time on cutting in the movie, I think, when I went to Calgary.

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. That was one of those scenes that kept on getting reworked, because there was certain elements that we’re just missing the focus here or you want to make the tension a little bit more, so you want to use this shot and insert something else. Man, I just remember the last shot of him just putting the earbuds on. That was a conversation you and I had a lot of times about keeping that one shot for the whole way.

Jeremy Harty:

I was like, “No, man. It’s killing me. It’s strong. But it’s like so much time where nothing really changed.” That’s a different decision that really pays off when you’re in the theater. The uncomfortable silence and awkwardness of that long shot, but I had digitally pushed in on parts of it, try to change it up, try to jump cut parts just so that one shot, the top of that whole scene is like mostly Cory coming back with a note here.

Jeremy Harty:

Then, we try something else or trim a few frames here and there. There’s a lot of messing with frames just to get it where it is now I guess.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. I learned a lot. I learned so much just on that scene alone. I still have the old cut of it and comparing to what I built and was like, “Here, I want something like this.” I’m looking at it now I’m like, “Oh, my god. I should never make a movie again.”

Jeremy Harty:
No. It’s a team effort, man. It’s a team effort.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. For anyone watching the long scene, if you haven’t seen what Jeremy’s talking about, it’s after the profiling scene which is tension, tension, tension. We just have a shot where we linger on him and it’s the aftermath of the scene, and we hang there close to… Almost two and a half minutes. We just use a build of music and Ronnie’s acting, he made a choice.

Cory Bowles:

I said, “Take your time with what you want to do in this.” He took his time. He played it real. He didn’t do what I was expecting to do, which I thought he was going to freak out or something or do some sort of… He went so far away from that, that it was actually perfect, and that scene that we did, there was a lot of big debate on it.

Cory Bowles:

It was one of those things where it was so real and raw, I didn’t want to change it, but I was really scared. I remember being worried about that shot, because I was like, “How are people going to watch this for two minutes?” But then the reactions came in and Chicago, there were some men crying during that scene because they had that experience as well. That’s when I was like, “Okay. We made the right choice.” It was a risk, like Jeremy said that paid off.

Jeremy Harty:

That’s an example of what I was saying earlier where I don’t have those experiences, so I have to fall back on Cory for that to really understand how impactful that will be to the black community or people that have been racially profiled, because I’m a white male. I’ve been blessed in that regard. I just haven’t had to deal with that, but that long awkwardness and his brain just processing what just happened.

Jeremy Harty:

Then, he just kind of like switches and jogs off, but then, obviously, it’s still affecting him because that’s the rest of the whole film, right?

Shonna Foster:
Jeremy, do you go on set?

Jeremy Harty:
Did I go on set? Yeah.

Shonna Foster:
Do you go on every day?

Jeremy Harty:

Ah, no. Not every day. I think I was still working on this other show at one point. I can’t remember, but they were shooting in my neighborhood because Halifax is relatively small. I think I walked down from my house, one or two days on set and just checking it out, make sure they’re going to get it all. Like I have any power there, but I did it. Show the team that we’re in it together, because most people don’t see the editor, right?

Shonna Foster:

Cory, do you guys work in that you’ll take the pass, and then Cory will give notes or are you in the room together in the end? Can you talk a little bit about your process, how you work together?

Jeremy Harty:
It’s kind of all of it, right?

Cory Bowles:
Yeah. I think there’s a question here that is on that vein as well.

Jeremy Harty:

Yes. Cory was in the edit suite sitting like two feet from me. That’s not going to happen now with COVID. We were working, and then at some points he was working wherever he was traveling around the world doing his thing. I was locked here in my little room and sending files back and forth. I’d tweak a scene or whatever, send it off to him see what he thought. Got his notes, take another crack at it and stuff, and then he’d come in and we…

Jeremy Harty:
Did we sit and watch the whole thing a few times here in Halifax?

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. By the building when I watched cuts, so I remember pacing and Jeremy’s all being like, “It’s going to be fine and-“

Jeremy Harty:
Cory is like that in general though. He’s got energy that I just don’t have, so.

Cory Bowles:

Well, I’ll tell you with Jeremy, as a director, I will say I’m really, really fortunate because most directors want to be involved in the edit, for sure. I want to be right in there, but you have to give trust to your editor as well. He presents you something, he always has to explain to me like… I always have to explain to other people when I’m mentoring at CFC or something. It’s like, “Never worry about your first cut.” Because he’s like, “This is just an assembly pen. This is to show you what you have and we’re going to work through from there.”

Cory Bowles:

A lot of times what I find Jeremy does, which is a natural thing that I don’t really get from another editor is that he’ll say, “Why don’t you have a crack at cutting the scene?” It’s not judgmental on how I’ll cut it, because I cut it terribly. I don’t know how to use the software so good and I’ll send it back and he’ll be like, “Okay. Let’s now let’s tweak it. Let’s work it.” Me takes that and adds in something, and then we really start to cook. A lot of times by him allowing me that freedom to sort of explain what I’m looking for, really helps, because a lot of times as directors, we can’t articulate like an editor.

Cory Bowles:

We can think about the edit, but to actually specifically articulate something to someone, and then someone to present it back to you, you can get locked in just sitting down and going, “Well, I’ll settle for it because I don’t know.” But Jeremy’s always like, “What do you want?” Let’s look at what you want and let’s see what you can play with. I really appreciate [crosstalk 00:20:28]

Jeremy Harty:

Thanks, man. But it’s really hard… I can relate. It’s hard to convey a thought sometimes, just articulating it with words. I really enjoy the process of just noodling stuff, throwing it around, and if Cory has the same access to the same footage as I do, and he can put it in an order that I haven’t thought of, why would I get upset, right?

Jeremy Harty:

It’s his project. It’s his vision. I’m there to help with other stages that maybe he has some difficulty with, and at the end of the day, it is a team effort. If he comes away after cutting something feeling self-conscious about it and I go, “No. No, man. That worked.”

Jeremy Harty:

But I have the same problem too. There’s scenes I cut and I was like, “I don’t know about this, man.” He goes, “No. It’s great.” Or that, “No. That’s it. That’s it.” Then, we work from there.

Jeremy Harty:

Another thing that we did was he shot a lot of little stuff in the black box, the mic drop is what I’m thinking of Cory. You had the footage of the mic being picked up, him using the mic, dropping the mic. I think at one stage, it wasn’t fully finished. It just didn’t feel like it was its own thing. Then, I was like, “What if he dropped the mic?” Correct me if I’m wrong because I’m going by memory and it’s a little ways ago. I’ve had kids since then and all sorts of stuff, brain just gets mushy at some point.

Cory Bowles:
Yeah. You were talking about when you move the mic scene around.

Jeremy Harty:
Yeah. Because we tried to like bookend that into the film its own way.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. Well, I mean you did that a lot. You did a lot of little things that really sort of popped. I mean some of the other things too was I’m really about having a lot of space in the scene. I want to have space and I want to have time and I want to have beats, but we also have to keep the scene moving. I found that I would…

Cory Bowles:

This is where things I don’t know as the directors are so good at going, “Okay. We could keep your space, but we can tighten up this.” We like to work on an intensity graph through a scene that kind of has ups and downs and a lot of slopes in it and I find that I can cut a sort of dynamic scene, but the meat’s not there and that’s where when we get together and we start digging things and Jeremy will

suggest something, move something around and we solved a lot of problems in the edit room, because the other thing about shooting a movie like this, and Andrew to your question about spending time.

Cory Bowles:

I spend a lot of time as much as I can with Jeremy, and it’s so exciting when you go away from a room and you see us, you get something back. That’s like one of the… Regardless if it’s good, it’s just exciting to get something back, because you live with it and it’s daunting. It’s really hard, but I find… I was going to say one thing that happens when we play, we solve a lot of problems in the set that we… There’s a lot of things that aren’t necessarily going to work in the movie and you have to build it from scratch in the edit.

Cory Bowles:

That’s what I think we do. We’ve always done well together was create things when we just had no scene at all, like nothing was going to work and we made it work.

Jeremy Harty:

There are still examples of things where, because it was only shot within what? 12 days. There was one shot I was like I really wish we had, but we just didn’t have the opportunity of when a white cop gets his uniform taken, you remember that, Cory? I was like-

Cory Bowles: I sure do.

Jeremy Harty:

I just want to see him in the garbage naked or in his underwear, whatever, but I just wanted to see that visual. We just… One, you’re asking a lot for the actor to do that, and the time frame to do that and would it have been the best use of our time to get that one shot or to go out and shoot an insert or whatever? But, yeah, you can get bogged down by those kind of wish lists, but then you start thinking of other things to help solve that problem. That’s one of the reasons why I like editing, because you really do get to shaped the whole film. I also color correct. We’re tweaking stuff and trying to make things punch and fix issues.

Cory Bowles:

What did we have for the first kind of the movie was like, an hour? Like 66 minutes or something like that, right?

Jeremy Harty:
Yeah. One shortcut and it was like, “What else is going to go in this film, Cory? I don’t know…” But you-

Cory Bowles:
I was like, “My career is over.”

Jeremy Harty:

No. But that was a problem solving… You had to solve that problem, so you were forced into it. You already had the idea of having the radio through stuff, but then some of the narration, some of the black box stuff, doing a little montage helps pepper that in throughout and it helps too.

Jeremy Harty:

Then, those cards with the white text, you had two or three different versions, different quotes, at one point it’s like, “No. We can’t go with that quote. We’re going with this quote.” I’m like, “All right. Does that work now or does that make it better? I’m lost. I don’t know anymore.” Spending so much time in the edit suite too, at some point, I could see Cory’s point about being away from the edit, coming back and seeing something that’s like fresh eyes.

Jeremy Harty:

I think that’s important too. We did have a little break here and there where we were busy with other things, and then came back to finishing Black Cop or working on another scene or-

Shonna Foster:

I know the film started as a short. Cory, did you make it with the intent to make it into a feature? Did you know making the short that you were going to make a feature film?

Cory Bowles:

Yes and no. Originally, I conceived it as a feature back in 2014 maybe, and then I did the short in 2015. I kind of just thought that was it. It was a very… But the thing I was like, “I need to do now.” I think I went and shot it at a weekend that we were doing [inaudible 00:26:01] boys went home, shot it, and then grabbed the GoPro.

Cory Bowles:

I think it was the following year, coming through the following year when I figured… I was actually told by a few people that, and a friend of mine, Nelson, Nelson McDonald who said, “Yo, I think they should be actually expanded. So if you know what you think you want to say.” Because I talked about it. I talked about the character and why he did what he did in the short film.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. It kind of came back around to the feature, but I didn’t expect it. It was kind of an unexpected thing to happen. Suddenly, I was paired up with Aaron and we were going to write a movie… I was going to write this film, we were going to go after it, and suddenly, we were doing it. I had another project that I was trying to do too, actually, and then this one just swept everything else away.

Shonna Foster:
Yes. Is your project’s still going to get made?

Jeremy Harty:
I’m hoping these projects get made. Maybe I can hang out with him again. I don’t know.

Shonna Foster:

I’m going to pull a question from the Q&A. Did you have test screenings with friends and family and crew before picture lock?

Jeremy Harty:
I think there were quite a few people watching it, weren’t there?

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. We are like a tight-knit group. I’m really afraid of that. This is going to sound really funny, but I only showed it to, personally, myself. I only showed it to a few people. I tend to not believe what my team says, and that’s not that I don’t trust them. It’s like Aaron, the producer is like, “It’s looking good.” I’m like, “You’re lying.” I don’t like-

Jeremy Harty: He does say that.

Cory Bowles:

I shout to my partner or you show it to a couple of close friends. I think I showed it to my friend, Mark Claremo. I sent it to Clark Johnson as well, but that’s generally about it. Mostly because I’m really afraid of it. So, even like I’m so afraid to do it. I don’t want to know. I don’t care if they show it, but I’m like I don’t-

Jeremy Harty:

I’m a little different with my assistant editors or people I’m working with in the building. I’ll show them scenes, but I won’t show them the whole thing, mostly because we’re not there yet, and when we were close to picture lock, I don’t know if I showed them the whole film then, because there’s still things that were going to be worked out or the color timing would be done.

Jeremy Harty:

I felt strongly that if we had too much input from people who weren’t in the whole part of the process, it might get watered down or there might be weird notes that come out of nowhere. Dealing with broadcasters, and then broadcaster goes, “Yeah. Do you have any takes where they say these lines?” You’re like, “What do you mean these lines? Like now? We’ve already locked the picture. Like you want to rework a whole scene? No. We don’t.” That’s what we got to work with so… That’s the fear that I have by bringing in a bunch of people and saying, “Okay.”

Jeremy Harty:

They’ll watch the cut, and then they’ll be like, “Yeah. What if you had this shot? What if you had that shot?” This a small budget, 12-day shoot, and this is what we got. We’re making it work and it worked with this one I think.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. I’m of two minds of that. I think in some cases you need to have test screenings and you need to do those things, but in some cases when you’re doing a project that’s like, it’s you’re doing a different thing, you’re doing something that’s like… In one case, it was like, “We really couldn’t care. We had to actually be like…” It just has to be really good, it has to flow well and it has to be honest.

Cory Bowles:

We tried to stay away from anything that was like, “Well, this doesn’t work because the rule is…” Sometimes, if you get into too much of that type of viewing, that people don’t understand rules. We were doing something that, at the time, we were like, “We don’t want this to be conventional in any way. We just want you to be affected by it when you see it.”

Cory Bowles:
It’s a challenge, but I do believe in testing. Just that was a tough one for me. I’d give-

Jeremy Harty: [crosstalk 00:29:45]

Cory Bowles:
It was so hard to even hit the send button when I showed someone the link.

Shonna Foster:

It does seem like a challenge though because the film is unconventional, because you both seem to work that way. Navigating notes from producers, how do you go about that when you’re getting… Did you get a lot of notes back from producers as you were going and-

Jeremy Harty:

We got notes. I get notes from a co-worker, and then I found myself saying, “Well, you’re not really seeing it from Cory’s perspective, right? It was the confrontation, the Skittle scene or however you want to refer to it with the big fence that shot. There were a lot of people in my shop they were like, “That shot so long.”

Jeremy Harty:

I was like, “Oh…” That’s why I did other versions, because I was so listening to them, and at some point I just had to step back and go like, “You got to trust Cory and Ronnie. That they did that shot, they want that length, and everyone else their perspective is valid, but we have to push something.

Jeremy Harty:

To me, that’s one of those shots that’s really pushing that urge of an editor to cut. There’s some people that just cut every three seconds. It doesn’t matter. It’s like cutting cut, cut, cut, angle, angle, angle, angle, angle. And to fight those urges of just cutting the shot, it’s hard. It’s a hard thing to do. Trusting the process and getting people’s notes is important.

Jeremy Harty:

I want to know why I have to defend it sometimes, but then with this project, I’m kind of just along for the ride with Cory.

Cory Bowles:
Oh, stop. That’s funny. Because I trust so much of what he does… But I’ll tell you on top of that-

Jeremy Harty:
We got so much history too. That’s probably why. We’ve known each other since ’99, ’98, ’99.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah, and we had on top of that, we have one producer with Aaron. Aaron was always in the room, but Aaron as producer was totally like, he totally trusted us too. He’s just like, “Yeah. I think this…” Any time he did give a note, it was… It’s like one of those things where you… He’s like that player, you bring him to take the shot right at the buzzer who knows that they’re going to hit the shot at the buzzer.

Cory Bowles:

He’s one of those note givers. He drops the note when the note really needs to be given. It’s usually one that’s just like… For example, in that scene that we did in the fence, his note… I was ready to, because we had to send it off to Tiff, because we’ve been in at that time, but we had to give them the actual version.

Cory Bowles:

I wasn’t happy with the music we’d scored. We’ve done the improv score with the band. I just threw a piece in and Aaron had said, “I don’t think you’re happy.” I was like, “It doesn’t matter if I’m happy, we have to get it.” He goes, “Well, you’re not happy and this isn’t what you said you want to do.”

Cory Bowles:

I was like, “What am I supposed to do?” Then, he goes, “You’ll figure it out.” He left. [inaudible 00:32:30] I’m so mad. I was just like I wanted to go hit him. I was so angry I was like, “I can’t do this. We’re never going to do it in time.” Then, I ended up taking two pieces of different versions of the same song, flipping them, making stuff go backwards. I put up a mic and started doing my own vocal things in it.

Cory Bowles:

Then, I came back and he comes and listens. I show him the scene. He just goes like this. He’s like, “Yeah.”

Jeremy Harty:

Why didn’t it occur to me why you did the reaction? No one wants to see me watching you do the reaction.

Cory Bowles:
Oh, sorry. Anyway-

Jeremy Harty:
That’s bad editing right there.

Cory Bowles:

[crosstalk 00:33:02] you just did a head nod, but those notes, he would give us both. He was really trusting. It’s really important.

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. He’s in the building where I am and I’ve been cutting and stuff. He could drop in any time. See what I’m working on, and see what it is. I could go to him and say, “Okay. I’ve retackled this. What do you think?” We’re not really hung up on a power struggle or anything, which is good. I think there’s too many people that get bogged down by that, and that’s the really great thing that Aaron brought to the project.

Jeremy Harty:
Ego could just put you in such a bad place. I don’t want to have a big ego, but I do sometimes.

Shonna Foster:

I’m going to pull another question from the Q&A. How did you time the scene where the student is in the distance and Black Cop shoots him with his finger as a gun? Very good question.

Jeremy Harty:
I was not on set that day so I don’t know how it was done, but I suspect I do know how it was done.

Shonna Foster: Share your secrets.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. That’s my dance background, timing, rhythm, and two really good actors with experience on stage and experience in blocking and timing where I could say, “Hey, you’re going to take… You’re going to run till you get to there.” Ronnie’s going to watch him go. He’s going to take a deep breath and shoot.

Cory Bowles:

That was sort of a thing that they were pretty linked up and you can, they felt it. We just ran it. They nailed it, and yeah. There was no sound effects or anything like that. It was one of those things where you… It’s so hard to say to an actor like when you get around this area, you have to feel like when you get hit.

Cory Bowles:

Then, the person shooting the person in the back, but they were on the same wavelength. That’s very much how dancers work, right? Dancers work with instincts and trying to feel each other’s time as you spread out. They just nailed that. Lots of rhythm. I like to work with-

Jeremy Harty:
I thought you had someone out on the side just waving them down to fall like an AD?

Cory Bowles: No.

Jeremy Harty:
You didn’t yell behind camera, fall?

Cory Bowles: No.

Jeremy Harty: No?

Cory Bowles: No.

Jeremy Harty: No?

Cory Bowles: No.

Jeremy Harty:
All right. That was what I was guessing.

Cory Bowles:

To be authentic you got… I mean sometimes if we were in TV, we would have to and AD would come over and be like, “Nope. You’re doing it this way. I have someone here. They’re going to get queued. Go back to the monitor. See you later.” Like by that. No. For this it was just the whole movie is as organic as possible, so.

Jeremy Harty:
What was the crew size? How many people were on the crew? I put you on the spot there.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. I want to say 20, maybe 22 max. Yeah. Because we had two camera assists, we had two electric, we have… We basically have two of everybody, except the hair and makeup, wardrobe, there’s three, and so I would say just around 20 max maybe.

Jeremy Harty:

What gets me is with all the different camera formats too, we had to worry about frame rates, aspect ratios, all that stuff, just the file formats themselves bringing them in to the system, I can only imagine how much pain in the butt it was on set having to chase cameras, getting them all set up with a smaller crew.

Shonna Foster:
What kind of camera did you shoot with?

Jeremy Harty: FS7, wasn’t it?

Cory Bowles: Yeah.

Jeremy Harty: Yeah. Sony FS7.

Cory Bowles:
Yeah. Then, GoPros. GoPro Hero. Was the Hero 5 or 4?

Jeremy Harty:
I think it was 4 at that time. Yeah.

Cory Bowles:
Hero 4 and my iPhone.

Jeremy Harty: iPhone.

Cory Bowles: Yeah.

Jeremy Harty:
Did you have like a Samsung in there too or some other phone?

Cory Bowles:

No. I don’t think I used the… I thought I’d just use my phone. I might use something else, but, yeah, I think just those three. Then, yeah, the GoPros were all the dash cams as well.

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. We tried to muddy up some of them to look a little bit different even though they were shot on some of the same cameras.

Shonna Foster:
I have a question for Jeremy.

Jeremy Harty: Oh, no.

Shonna Foster:
Did you go to film school?

Jeremy Harty:

I went to a community college taking radio and television broadcasting for two years. I was originally going to be in radio production. I was going to do commercials on tape to tape. That was my plan. Then, I asked one of the guys working at the local radio station how much they made per year, how long he’d been there. At that time he was there for maybe 15 years and he was making 38,000 a year. I said, “Okay. Screw this shit. I’m out.”

Jeremy Harty:

Luckily because of my program, we did journalism. We did radio, and we also did television. I just gravitated halfway through my first year into the television side of things, which really pissed off the radio teacher, because he thought he had another radio convert early on in the process, because that’s how I came into the program.

Jeremy Harty:

I’m just one of those guys with a blessed mind for tech. I started learning all the tapes and the systems. We had a non-linear system. It was a light wave I believe. It was just after the EditDroid. It was on an Amiga. It was cumbersome. Painful as hell, but it was dead when I got to the school and we resurrected it when I was there.

Jeremy Harty:

Then, I never used it because it sucked. I just really enjoyed the creative side of editing, taking different footage. One of my major projects I got a bad mark on, but I loved it. I took a song by Stone Temple Pilots to Return of the Jedi. It’s the song Tumble in the Rough. I took that song that was cutting it to the walkers being crushed. Oh, so cheesy. I wish I had it soon.

Shonna Foster: Okay.

Cory Bowles:
This is pre YouTube, so that’s the stuff now that will get like [crosstalk 00:38:31]-

Jeremy Harty:

Oh, god. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I’d probably have 100 million easy, easy views on that, right? Probably had some take down notices. Probably would have put it up somewhere else, still got another 100 million. Would have been DMCA, got in trouble for that I’m sure, but that’s when I really thought, “Okay. Audio editing was great in a sense, but video editing is so much more, because you have audio, you have picture, just twice as good.” That’s how I got into working in the biz.

Shonna Foster:

In biz, and what advice would you have for any upcoming editors and now everything’s digital and software and things can be very expensive, and so what are some tools that you use?

Jeremy Harty:

Oh, now is amazing. Now’s an amazing time, because you can get the DaVinci Resolve for free. You can edit, you can color correct, you can do some special effects and some audio editing in there too. If you were starting out and you’re in high school or junior high or something like that, if you got like an AV

Club or something extracurricular that you can do like that, you should watch as many movies and TV shows as you can get your hands on.

Jeremy Harty:

You got to watch some of the really bad stuff to realize what not to do sometimes, but try to watch the really classic stuff, so that you can really appreciate and get into that mindset, but with YouTube and all the other platforms of people offering tutorials on everything out there. I would kill, kill to be starting my career at this point being much younger because there’s just so much more to learn.

Jeremy Harty:

Film school is good for certain people. I don’t know if I could gone through film school and be where I am now. I think I’m one of those people that has to do it, has to have my hands on, and suffering through it, and working long hours, and getting punched in the arm when the director wants me to make an edit. That’s not Cory. That was another director I worked with early on in my career.

Jeremy Harty:

Every time he wanted me to cut was [inaudible 00:40:26] right in the arm. You have to go through that stuff. I think that will shape you into it, but don’t be afraid to work long hours and research and watch as much as you can.

Shonna Foster:
A question from Andrea. What is your preferred editing platform?

Jeremy Harty:

I use Final Cut Pro. I’ve used it since it was beta. Before that, I used the Media 100. Oh, my god. That was painful. We only had two tracks of video and a graphics track and we used to cheat the graphics track to be a third layer of video by exporting all our footage, and then re-importing it and putting it in this graphics, but then when I made the move to Final Cut, it was the beta version and I’ve been on Final Cut or Final Cut X ever since.

Jeremy Harty:

Now, I’ve dabbled in Avid and Touched Premiere. When we finish our shows, we generally use DaVinci Resolve to do the final color and send it back to Final Cut for our export and our mastering.

Cory Bowles:
Andrea, he is a Final Cut snob.

Jeremy Harty: I am.

Cory Bowles:

I mean it in the sense that when the Final Cut came out and it was like a glorified iMovie. He was raving about it and I was like, “Yo, man. This is kind of like what’s up?”

Jeremy Harty: Whack.

Cory Bowles:

[crosstalk 00:41:34] taking the old Final Cut style and this is awesome. He was just like not having it. He’s like basically Final Cut could have been just like… It just could have been like one [inaudible 00:41:45] it would be okay. He’d be like Final Cut, he’d find the… He would find the positive in it.

Jeremy Harty:
I’m a Mac snob what it really comes down to, so, just straight up Mac snob.

Cory Bowles:
He taught me how to use the new Final Cut very well.

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. I suffered greatly when they switched from Final Cut 7 into Final Cut X. I was doing a short film and I was trying to do all these multi-layer stuff and it was crashing, and then I was just… But I found that having a project to do in it, I learned it, and if I was forced to use another software, I’d just be like, “Oh, I want to go back to Final Cut,” because it’s what I know.

Jeremy Harty:

What it comes down to is go with the tool that you feel strongest in, but be aware of the other tools, because they all have their advantages and disadvantages. One of the things I really like about the Final Cut is being able to create roles where you assign different things, and when I go to output, I can output five or six different versions of the same timeline with just a few keystrokes.

Jeremy Harty:

It’ll do export of different files like if I had a German language and a French language on the same thing, I could do two exports. So a German one and the French one, but only have to have one timeline if you prepared your project properly and stuff. That’s why I stick with Final Cut. Sorry.

Shonna Foster:

Another question. What is your decision-making process in approaching pacing in your edit? I guess that’s for both of you actually.

Jeremy Harty:

Well, for me, I generally slap together everything dialogue based in the order of per script or whatever, and re-watch it, and then see if there’s duplicate thoughts being said or expressed, and then looking at how to pepper in the coverage over top of that. So, if I want to go to someone’s reaction and stuff. That’s how I tend to build it. Worrying about the actual script first, and then worrying about coverage and all the other angles or the timing of things, but as of late, in the last year or so, I’ve been working on Trailer Park Boys animated series.

Jeremy Harty:

It’s totally different. You do your audio cut and you send it off, and then they do the storyboards and all that stuff. It’s like four or five months later, it comes back to you and you’re like, “Oh, that’s how they drew that. Okay. Well, let’s maybe cut these lines out now that I thought I needed.” Tossed. So, different experience, but interesting. Cory, yourself?

Cory Bowles:

Oh, for me, rhythm is really important. I like to try to find a natural emotional rhythm and everything and if I can’t find it in the scene, I don’t want the scene, but if I really want the scene, I have to find the rhythm. I believe in a lot of space and a lot of time, but I don’t want anything to be sluggish.

Cory Bowles:

I guess it’s always hard to find the right balance and you kind of know… Actually, we played a lot with the pacing and there’s a scene where Black Cop is stopped by a rookie cop in the movie. We played a whole… I think we have like six different versions of that scene or just-

Jeremy Harty: Yeah. There’s a lot.

Cory Bowles:

… [crosstalk 00:44:52] what we were cutting, what we’re dragging out? What are the most tense? One of them was like snappy and one of them was like boring. One of them was like exciting and hype. Then, we were like, “Okay. Well, how do we find the right balance of each one?”

Cory Bowles:

Again, we really try to find peaks and valleys as much as possible in a scene. If something ramps up, you find the ramp up and if something is supposed to have the, just hold you there. We make sure we build it with a hole or we might pull out when you don’t want to get pulled out. It’s kind of things like that.

Cory Bowles:

On Jeremy’s other point about, it’s different in television. I get to sit on the edit, I do a lot of the edit, the Director’s Cut for Diggstown. I show I work on, Diggstown. I’m really adamant about sort of not doing a cut that the network is necessarily going to like. I always try to find and I cut it as tight as possible. I shouldn’t say this because… I cut it as tight as possible so they can’t make very many changes.

Jeremy Harty:
You just told a trade secret, man.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. Usually, you give a long cut and give it, so the producers can have their cut. I’ll cut it really tight. Then, they’ll have some things they can change, but usually the essence is there. Then, it usually shifts some… There goes my dog. I got to just pause.

Jeremy Harty:

To further Cory’s point there, there’s a thing when you’re working with a broadcaster where certain broadcasters after you’ve worked with them for a while they might trust you, but other ones you know they’re going to just need to make a note, even if it’s not a note that should be made. They just have to be part of the process.

Jeremy Harty:

You kind of have one obvious bad scene or edit or line and you kind of just leave it there for the first pass where they see it, and then that’s going to be the thing that they focus on. You go, “Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Great note. We’ll take that out.” You cut it out. Then, they look like a hero.

Cory Bowles:

[inaudible 00:46:51] networks in there, but sometimes [inaudible 00:46:54] and sometimes in some cases it’s like I would try to keep a little bit there, but I also want to make sure that they hire me to direct the show and they hire me to put my touch on it. I want to make sure they get what is my touch, and if they go, “Okay. Well, this isn’t what we want.”

Cory Bowles:

Then, I’m like, “Well, then, I’ll learn what you want, but this is… I want to make sure you get the most that I can give you in an edit. I always will push, push, push as well for that.” It usually turns out well. Everyone is happy at the end. There’s some things that may work or may not, but I think that’s important to experiment there as well.

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. In regards to what I was saying with the note process that I’m used to. I’m used to working on a series that has been going for so long, has the same director, and Cory’s coming from it from he’s the hired gun. You’re hiring him for his perspective. You should get his perspective. You should get what he thinks and feels is best.

Jeremy Harty:

I’ve worked with other directors on other series where that’s what they do. They do their thing, and of course, the producers and everyone else overrules them at some point and things get changed, but at least you know where that person’s come from and their vision is there, and generally you hire them because you want their vision.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. In a show like Trailer Park, I direct Trailer Park and Jeremy edits that. I’m not actually involved in the edit. I’ll shoot for the edit to give him options, but really it’s about… In that case, I’m trying to get as much dynamic and as much good material in the scene, so then they can play with everything they want.

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. There’s not complaints in that regard because Cory’s been in the family or the show for so long. He knows the characters and knows the crew and everything. It just works. It’s so easy. He just walks in, bangs it all out. We’re done. Right, Cory, no pain?

Cory Bowles:

Yeah, but you’ve also given me some lectures about things that I may or may not have gotten or things that-

Jeremy Harty:

I choose not to remember those moments, but, yeah. I’m sure they’d happened. In that regard, that series, I cut in a trailer near the set. It used to be the point where I’d come out to set and everyone would go, “Oh, shit. Jeremy’s here.” Because I guess I’m just that big a dick when I come out on set or something’s gone wrong and I caught it in the suite and I’m coming out to say, “It’d be really nice if you shot a color chart or you gave us a few more seconds when you say cut, like this really sucks to be in this room over there.”

Cory Bowles:
Jeremy is known to come out to set, stand there, and then leave. If he does that, you know something

that like… Everyone’s like, “What did we do? We did something.” Jeremy Harty:

There’s always a department going, “Something went wrong. Was it our department? I don’t know.” Sounds messed up-

Cory Bowles:
[crosstalk 00:50:04] everyone sees it.

Jeremy Harty:
Did we have a continuity issue? I don’t know. He didn’t talk to me so I think we’re good. Okay.

Shonna Foster:
Jeremy, do you have an agent? How do you get gigs?

Jeremy Harty:

I do not have an agent. I get all my gigs word of mouth. Luckily, I keep busy just because of that, but I haven’t been out there doing… I don’t sell myself. I don’t peddle my wares. I’ve just been blessed to be able to be working Trailer Park stuff and working on Cory’s stuff and working with people who were with Trailer Park and moved on to other projects at some point and said, “Hey, yeah, let’s bring Jeremy along.”

Jeremy Harty:

But Nova Scotia is hard to get some gigs sometimes. It’s really painful for other editors out here and teams. Especially now with COVID, it’s tough for everyone.

Shonna Foster:

For both of you, is there a genre that you haven’t worked in that you want to? I know Jeremy you’ve done animation shorts.

Jeremy Harty:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). It’s going to make you sound like the biggest wimp ever. I don’t watch horror movies. I don’t think I could ever cut a horror movie. I don’t know. For me, I would like to do more dramatic stuff. I really enjoy the dramatic stuff. I find it sometimes a little bit more restrictive though than comedy. Comedy just have such… There’s so much more we can mess with.

Jeremy Harty:

That’s why Black Cop really worked for me is because even though it was so dramatic, there was a lot of freedom. There’s a lot that could be reshaped and juggled around. It wasn’t so fixated on shot by shot by shot as per his list or the script. It was a little bit more free-form.

Cory Bowles:
I would trust Jeremy with any genre of film. I would trust him with horror. I would trust him with-

Jeremy Harty: No. Horror.

Cory Bowles:
I would trust him do a Hallmark movie. I actually think [crosstalk 00:51:55]-

Jeremy Harty:
Oh, Hallmark movie [crosstalk 00:51:57]

Cory Bowles:

I actually think Jeremy is an absolute gifted editor. I think that he is one of the very few editors, and I’ve worked with really good editors and I love my relationship with everyone, but I think there’s something that Jeremy taps into that I find very rare and I find really special that I think that he has an extremely open mind.

Cory Bowles:

He’s not afraid to go away from his comfort zones and just try something. That’s one thing that I’ve always noticed is that he never approaches it by rule. He approaches it, but this is what’s in front of us, this is what we can work with, and let’s start from there.

Cory Bowles:

I find that that’s great when you have your toolbox and you have your methods and you have your go-to’s. I don’t like to work that way myself. It’s like we have our toolbox, we just go for it. I feel that is one of Jeremy’s strengths is that once he understands what the pacing is or gets an eye for something, then he pulls out stuff that I hoped for, but also wouldn’t have been able to think of. I think he’d be good at anything really.

Jeremy Harty: Thanks, bud.

Cory Bowles:

That’s why he’s on my team.

Jeremy Harty:
Cory loves me so much he named his dog Jeremy.

Cory Bowles:
Well, her name is Peanut.

Jeremy Harty: Oh, damn.

Cory Bowles:
She’s named after Peanut [inaudible 00:53:15], Shannon.

Jeremy Harty: I don’t know.

Cory Bowles:
Actually, a choreographer I love so very much.

Jeremy Harty:
Okay. Maybe your next dog, right?

Cory Bowles:
Maybe, yeah, my fish. Maybe.

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. I have to say over my career I’ve been very blessed to work with people that are very creative types and are kind of on the fringe, not that mainstream. I think that’s helped me mold myself into something where I am now, but I definitely can’t do horror. I don’t think I can do horror. I could maybe do a slasher, but not like the jump scares.

Jeremy Harty:

I don’t know. I’d be probably curled up in a ball in the edit suite crying after seeing some of the footage. I don’t know. Maybe it’s just all in my head because I haven’t been forced to do that.

Cory Bowles:
[crosstalk 00:54:01] to trigger something then, hey, don’t ever do horror.

Jeremy Harty:

But, yeah. But comedy and drama and even maybe action, stuff like that. I think I could do a half decent job. Just haven’t had that many opportunities. I don’t know if Cory and I have done anything really action driven. Maybe the lightsaber battle between Leahy and Ricky.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. No. I mean besides those little things like, no. I mean because most of my stuff is satire drama and it has a bit of comedy, but we’ve… No. Not really, but I also, again, like it would just be… I would just expect it of you, because we will be doing it. It’s like, if I’m doing an action movie, you’re right, you’re cutting it.

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. If I’m there I’m doing it. If I say I’m going to be on the project, I’ll give it 110% and I’ll watch a movie I’ve never heard of before or-

Cory Bowles:

I think it’s safe to say that a lot of people will sort of like you look at a Trailer Park is a sort of mock or a dog or things like that. Like a mock dog or that… That show even is full of action. We explode cars. There’s guns. There’s [crosstalk 00:55:09]-

Jeremy Harty:
Oh, yeah. That’s true.

Cory Bowles:
The only difference is as if a live camera crew was there so, yeah.

Jeremy Harty: Yeah.

Cory Bowles:
Action is timing and energy and pacing. I think that’s something Jeremy is really, really good at, so.

Jeremy Harty:

But that said, I don’t tend to watch my old work, even though like it’s been so many years ago that we worked on Trailer Park and stuff like that. I have re-watched some things and I don’t want to get bogged down into this like, “Oh, I wish I did that.” Now, that I know this, because at the time, that is where I was as a creative type. That’s where my skill set was. That’s where the gear and equipment and technology was.

Jeremy Harty:

I have to live with what that is. It can help mold me to the next stage. Maybe there’s a moment where I go and say, “Oh, yeah. That scene I cut years ago, that really worked.” Maybe that kind of thing we could discuss or do again. I don’t know what else to say.

Shonna Foster:
Well, Andrea’s asking how about documentary? Good question.

Jeremy Harty: Oh, yeah.

Shonna Foster:
Cory, what about you, would you do docs?

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. I mean I think that’s more about what type of things you’d edit. But I personally I’m going to… The way Jeremy is with horror movies, I feel like I’m not sure as much… I’ve wanted to do a couple talks. I’ve been tapping them and I’m afraid I would just ruin everything. I think I would do it, editing wise, if this was an editing question, I think Jeremy would do it well, because he understands story.

Cory Bowles:

I mean which is essentially what doc is. It’s story and engagement and understanding that. I think that’s a whole other art form that as personally as a director or filmmaker, writer even, that’s just a whole different unique beast that I just didn’t… In awe of all the time. Personally, I don’t think I’d be good at it. Maybe I would, I doubt it.

Jeremy Harty:

In my early career I did do some doc stuff. I worked on a series that was for Vision Television maybe, where a bunch of people were on a ship, a tall ship sailing across the world, and that was really one of the first doc style things that was truly doc because they were just documenting what happened on the ship, but I’ve never done like a biopic dock or anything like that.

Jeremy Harty:

Basically, just building the story from whatever is available is what Trailer Park kind of was from the beginning too. It wouldn’t be far stretch for me to jump into doing a doc series or something.

Cory Bowles:

I’d tell you, I would want to do something like McMillions or The Last Dance. Any type of drama doc series, those things are next level. That would be like-

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah, but getting all that footage and access to that archives and stuff, that’s what makes your edit, man. You could be, you really have to have the production team behind you and access to all that to really make those rock.

Cory Bowles:
Yeah. Well, I think there’s-

Jeremy Harty: You could do it.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. There’s something to be said too about depending on… I guess I was called recently or last year to do a doc to be part of a doc series of hip-hop. I had a lot of really… That I actually saw. I had a real vision of how I wanted it to be or what I thought I could do with it. That would have been fun. Something like

that I think would have been fun because I would have been able to play with the elements of hip-hop and how that worked.

Cory Bowles:

I think one of the most recent things, our friend, Jason, who really sort of took the dark side of the ring and he has such a childlike mind that he made this incredibly dark series, but had the sort of the mystique and the wonder of what it was like to be a kid watching wrestling. That’s like doc, filmmaking has that sort of blend that’s like a win for me, which [crosstalk 00:59:11]-

Jeremy Harty:

He just knows that content too, right? When you know the subject matter and you’ve lived and breathed it for so long, I think that kind of storytelling just comes so naturally, right? I could see you doing hip-hop from your days back in the hip-hop community.

Cory Bowles:
Yeah. We’ll move on.

Jeremy Harty:
All right. Any other questions? I guess not. I must have covered everything in the world.

Shonna Foster:
We’ve covered everything. Everything. We did it in an hour and 20 minutes.

Jeremy Harty: Record-breaking, right?

Cory Bowles:
Are we that long, really?

Jeremy Harty: Yeah. I think so.

Shonna Foster:
This is great. Let’s see if anyone else has any questions. Feel free to pop them into the Q&A chat.

Cory Bowles:

I’m going to say something because I think that Jeremy is such a good resource and I’ll say one thing I really appreciate about him that he does, that he did with Black Cop. I think I told you this Shannon is that he would send me scenes to look at and see what I thought, and they were scenes that he would give to… If you asked if he had worked with assistants, as I guess he has assistants and people he works with at Digiboyz, his company.

Cory Bowles:

He would give them a crack, cutting a version of my scene, a scene in my movie. I would get a version from each of those people and they would have their own crack. He was teaching them as well. They were learning how… I’ve said notes back and do cut, that used elements of each one or we do things like that. I found that was a really… I really strongly believe the mentorship, obviously.

Cory Bowles:

I think that that’s imperative of people in our position that we use that position that we have to be able to share. I feel like we’re in such a constrained time to make this movie that we did in 12 days and we had under a year to get it ready for TIFF. It was just a few months. The fact that he’s going to give that time and that space for them to get those cuts, hear those notes, do all that.

Cory Bowles:

It’s really and I’m all for it too, because I learn as well, because I’m seeing other perspectives as well as ones that we have ourselves. I feel that that’s really important and a really great quality in Jeremy. I think he’s really strong-

Jeremy Harty:

I definitely picked that up by my early days editing and stuff, giving opportunities like first Trailer Park film, the Black and White was cut in a week. We just had 13-hour day straight, but I was given that project because no one else at the company felt comfortable and didn’t really want to jump into it and commit that much time in such a short time to it. I was keen, but mentorship is definitely important.

Jeremy Harty:

I try to take interns from the community college and the other schools locally for a few weeks to get them into our environment and feel comfortable and put them through some paces. I’m not going to shove them in the room and make them paint a wall. I actually give them footage and say go to town. Like here sink a whole bunch of stuff, start cutting the scene, noodle it, and try to go from there, because I don’t have all the answers to every cut.

Jeremy Harty:

Like Cory said, it’s nice to see different people’s perspectives too, because you might get something that you just couldn’t see because there’s just so much footage and you couldn’t process it or wrap your head around. It’s nice to… I want to give them more opportunities and stuff. Right now we don’t really have many opportunities, for me, so, maybe I’ll give them some old projects and tell them to recut Black Cop, the Assistant Editor’s Cut.

Shonna Foster: Let’s do it.

Jeremy Harty:

I don’t know what that would be, man. I mean pretty gnarly I think. They wouldn’t have the elements that Cory put into it or maybe they get married to the cut.

Cory Bowles:

That’s a cool idea. We did a lot of shorts together too. I mean I think that would be really a fun project to be like, “Here’s our footage of our other short. Here’s the 10 tracks and the music we had and here’s the music we use. These are the music tracks like cut it. That’d be kind of fun. I mean, of course, it’s a lot of work though, but-

Jeremy Harty:

I remember decades ago when GarageBand first came out. That put up a whole song and all the elements for the song and let people remaster the song in GarageBand. That’s been done before, but it would be definitely interesting to see the content produced by it. Maybe we’ll do that with Righteous or something or your next film.

Cory Bowles: Yeah.

Shonna Foster:
Speaking of which, we have a question. What’s next? What’s next for both of you?

Jeremy Harty:

Oh, well, my answer’s going to be shorter than Cory’s. I’ll go first, Cory. Right now I don’t know what’s next. I was on a project. It’s on hold for a little bit now. There’s some other things because I’m affiliated with the Trailer Park boys and their web components and stuff that they do, I supervise some of that, putter around on some of their stuff, but there’s nothing really set in stone. So, summer’s almost over and I don’t know what the next gig is.

Cory Bowles:
I’m going to be his agent and try to get him to work.

Jeremy Harty:
Thank you. I need it for now. For sure. But what’s your answer, Cory?

Cory Bowles:

Well, I’m, of course, we were all on hold because of COVID up here in Ontario and Diggstown was delayed for a while. So, now that’s not going in until actually a year from now. Actually, a little earlier, thank you. Yeah. I’m about to do a show called Nurses. I’m about to direct an episode of that. Then, I’ll move on to a new show called Lady Dicks, which is knock on wood if [inaudible 01:04:46] I’ll be going back to Nova Scotia to do something through the winter, otherwise, I just finished another feature that I’ve been working on for a bit and we’re trying to get Aaron and I in the same team.

Cory Bowles:

We’re trying to get the team together to do that. We’ll see how things work as time goes. Now, I actually had another project that was very contained, which now seems to be a good idea with two people. Now, it’s like we’ll see. I was also working on an animation, developing an animation called… Well, it’s called Spacism now, which is like a play on racism, but it was called Maze in Space, but now it’s Spacism.

Jeremy Harty:
That is a project I’ve heard about, how many years now, bud? You got to get it off the ground.

Shonna Foster:
Did you change the title [crosstalk 01:05:32]-

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. It’s maybe 2000… I don’t know, ’10. But I’ve had it for a long time. Yeah. It’s basically, it’s a social commentary in space. It’s a satire, but it’s a cartoon that takes place there. Yeah. Been noodling with that.

Jeremy Harty:
Yes. You chose to change the name, which Shonna asked about.

Shonna Foster: Yeah.

Cory Bowles:
I like Spacism. I think Spacism is a cool name, but-

Jeremy Harty:
Oh, no. I think it’s a good name. It definitely works better I think than the other one for stability.

Cory Bowles:
Probably, yeah. Probably.

Shonna Foster:
We have another question from Andrea. Technically the long distance showing of scenes to Cory for-

Jeremy Harty:
Oh, how did we do the technical side for showing?

Shonna Foster: Yeah.

Jeremy Harty:

This was before Frame.io. Cory could correct me if I’m wrong, but I think at the time I was using Sony Media Share, Sony CI at one point it was branded, where you just dump it out, password protected, and then they could access it or we were using Dropbox. It was one of those two, but now all the shows that I’m working on… Sorry. Was working on, we were using Frame.io.

Jeremy Harty:

We would push out our cuts, the producers and the other writers or whoever else was involved in the process would leave all their notes there and we reimport them into Final Cut, right onto the timeline, and it makes note taking and giving way easier for me, because nothing sucks more than getting four different emails from different people and trying to figure out, one, what they’re talking about because there’s no time code stamp, two, just in general what they’re talking about like they say, “Yeah. Ricky says this line.”

Jeremy Harty:

Okay. Where? You’re searching for it and you got four other people saying, “No. I like that.” You’re like, “Uh.” So who overrules who? But I think we were doing Dropbox, submitting the whole scene, and then you just… Did you call me and we talked about it on the phone most of the time?

Cory Bowles:

Sometimes we’d have a chat and we would chat on Messenger too, by Message or Messenger or whatever it’s called now. I’ll tell you, Andrea, that Jeremy and I have been working remotely for years and when I see years, I mean like a decade. We were figuring out how to do iChat. I used to teach you-

Jeremy Harty: Oh, yeah.

Cory Bowles:
Yeah, man, because [crosstalk 01:07:47]-

Jeremy Harty:
Oh, my god. Yeah.

Cory Bowles:

We were cutting my movie Heart of Rhyme while I was… I’ve finished class. I’d go home. We’d be on iChat and we’d be working remotely like figuring out… You bring up how we share screen and we’d be just doing it that way. I didn’t know that wasn’t a way that you worked so suddenly it’s like when I got to other places like in the Canadian Film Center, it was like I would go home and I’d be like, “Well, there’s no reason why I can’t do this remotely?” Which we would set up, set up with my, the person I was working with there to do the same thing, which wasn’t happening at the time.

Cory Bowles:

It’s been a thing for us to be able to do that and just be able to chat or talk on the phone and see how things work. We were pretty on that ball for 10 years.

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. I totally forgot, which is funny, because there’s other things too that one thing, to my own horn. I developed doing dailies that were a podcast, but they’re password protected. You just use iTunes. You had one little link that I’d emailed to each user, and they would access that link and subscribe to the iTunes podcast and all the dailies would just get pushed out right to their phone or their iPad or whatever they were using at the time.

Jeremy Harty:

They could watch the dailies, and at one point, Technicolor, called me up, and they’re like, “How are you doing this? How are you building it into a website?” I’m like, “I don’t know if I want to tell you without getting money.” They’re like, “Ah, don’t worry about…”

Cory Bowles: We’ll figure it out.

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah, and they did. They figured it out. They did it differently, but for a time. But, yeah, the iChat video thing was… Yeah. It was just screen sharing and pushing that out to Cory through iChat, so he would see full screen, whatever we were cutting. We’d talk about it. I could scrub through a little bit. It worked really well. Then, at some point it kind of just chunked. It just got chunky and it wasn’t working as well.

Jeremy Harty:

Then, they changed the software a little bit and it was gone. Now, we have Zoom and other systems that took over. That’s how big a nerd I am.

Cory Bowles:
I was thinking back, and again, trying to get a cut to finish a stronger cut [inaudible 01:09:55] we wanted

a better cut. It’s like we would be working on… Yeah, straight through the- Jeremy Harty:

Well, there was a time where I was on set of another series as the data management tech and I was cutting… Was it righteous? Yeah. It was righteous I think at the time. Another short of Cory’s that it was on hold for a long time. Why was it on hold? What was… We were waiting for one shot.

Cory Bowles:

I didn’t get the most important shot in the movie. We were so excited about we did, we forgot to get a single shot of a handshake, which is the actual crucial point of the movie. We shot it in another town 100 kilometers away. We’re never going to get that store again that we shot inside and we were driving home and we were like, “I think we forgot the shot.” They did zillion cuts, and finally, I just shot my brother’s hand. We finally did it. Yeah.

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. Cory is like, “Yeah. We’ll get it done. We’ll get it done.” I was on set doing data management stuff, processing footage all day and I brought the footage from that out on set and just started cutting. At one point, I had directors and producers come in and they’re like, “What are you working on?”

Jeremy Harty:

I’m like, “Ah, another short film. Sorry.” I kind of forced Cory’s hand and said, “We’ve got to get this done, man. Seriously, this film has to be done.” It turned out great.

Shonna Foster:

Are these shorts available?

Cory Bowles: Sorry?

Jeremy Harty:
Yeah. Are your shorts available?

Cory Bowles:
some I think are, but most, no. I think-

Jeremy Harty:
If you were smart, you would release them somewhere maybe on YouTube.

Cory Bowles:

Well, there’s a couple, there’s a few of them online, but I am… You know what? I probably should just put a bunch up online like this week and I have a Vimeo, just my name is at Vimeo. I should… Yeah. I’ll just put them up online. They’re done… I mean Righteous was released back in 2014. It’s not like that’s… All those movies are… Some, I think CBC has the rights to one and they still show it once in a while, but I think I’m allowed to drop it out now.

Cory Bowles:
Yeah. You know what? That’s a good idea. I’m dropping out all my shorts this week and there you go.

Jeremy Harty:
You should. You really should, because-

Cory Bowles:
I should say our shorts because we all worked on them, so.

Jeremy Harty:
I didn’t work on all your shorts.

Cory Bowles: Well-

Jeremy Harty:
But I worked on the best ones.

Cory Bowles: Oh.

Jeremy Harty:

Oh, no. There’s some really nice shorts that Cory has never shown me, so I’d be interested to see some of those.

Cory Bowles:
This is true. I was really-

Jeremy Harty:

I don’t know if I ever saw the Heart of Rhyme short. Not the Heart of Rhyme. Sorry. Black Cop short. I don’t know if you ever showed it to me.

Cory Bowles:
Oh, because I was worried you’d judge me, because I edited that.

Jeremy Harty:
Yeah. I think so. I think that’s why you never let me see it.

Cory Bowles: Yeah.

Jeremy Harty:

Which may have been a blessing, it may have been a curse. I don’t know. Maybe I would have been on page one with you like right away, maybe it would have taken a little while for me to fight-

Cory Bowles:
Yeah. I don’t know.

Jeremy Harty:
… through in edit. It’s funny.

Shonna Foster:
Derek is asking where to see Black Cop. I know it’s available on CBC Films.

Cory Bowles:

Yeah. It’s on CBC here. If you’re in Canada, yeah. At CBC Gem right now showing it. It’s also on iTunes I think. It’s like 99 cent rental or something now. It’s on Google Play. It’s on Hulu if you have that. It should still be on Amazon Prime. It’s an Amazon movie so I think it’s there.

Cory Bowles:

It’s not [inaudible 01:13:15] any bell anymore, but I think it’s actually on YouTube Movies now for free right now, I think. It’s a special thing I guess because they’re doing all that. Let’s bring these type of movies back for free for a bit. Yeah. It’s on Apple too. Yeah. I said iTunes, Apple TV, whatever it’s called now. I don’t know. It’s always different.

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, Cory, because Cory didn’t come here I probably wouldn’t have done this, just because I’m so shy of cameras and being in the public eye.

Shonna Foster:
Jeremy, you keep saying you’re shy, but I have yet to witness the shyness.

Jeremy Harty:

This is something my wife’s told me for years. She’s like, “You hate going to social gatherings, but when you’re there, you’re fine.” I’m like, “Yeah. Maybe, but I dread going to it. I dread the concept.” But when I’m in it, I just push through.

Cory Bowles:
Well, Snuffleupagus no more. He’s out. There you go.

Jeremy Harty:
That’s a weird reference, man.

Cory Bowles:
You’re like the invisible letter.

Jeremy Harty:
Yeah, but do people even know who Snuffleupagus is anymore?

Shonna Foster: Yes.

Jeremy Harty:
Our age group, sure.

Cory Bowles:
Everyone knows Snuffleupagus.

Jeremy Harty: Our age.

Cory Bowles:

But I had the editor I was working with at the Canadian Film Center wanted to meet you and you were just nowhere. Because you get to choose your mentors, right? He was like, “Go and talk to Jeremy. I want this guy.” I don’t know what happened, but he just like disappeared.

Jeremy Harty:
He came here to Halifax?

Cory Bowles:

No. No. He wanted to talk to you because he chose you to be his mentor, but you were like MIA somewhere.

Jeremy Harty: When was that?

Cory Bowles:
I don’t know. It was 2013.

Jeremy Harty:
I must have been deep into Trailer Park or something.

Cory Bowles:
You know what? I think you were in the middle of, it was the movie.

Jeremy Harty: Oh.

Cory Bowles: It was in-

Jeremy Harty:

Yeah. Getting into the middle of the film is different than cutting the TV series. Yeah. That’s probably, but I can still meet that person. I still live. I’m alive.

Shonna Foster: He exists.

Cory Bowles: [crosstalk 01:15:05]

Shonna Foster: [inaudible 01:15:05]

Jeremy Harty:
He moved on. He’s on the bigger, better editors out there and hobnob [crosstalk 01:15:13]-

Cory Bowles: [crosstalk 01:15:13]

Jeremy Harty:
I missed out. I missed out.

Cory Bowles: Oh, stop it.

Jeremy Harty: It happens.

Shonna Foster:
Hey. Well, I guess we’ll wrap it up. This was great.

Jeremy Harty:
Thank you very much for-

Shonna Foster: You’re welcome.

Jeremy Harty:
… being the host.

Shonna Foster:
This is my first time doing this.

Jeremy Harty: The moderator.

Shonna Foster: This was fun.

Jeremy Harty:

I think you did lovely, but, again, this is my first time too, so I don’t know. I have no reference, but I’m sure it was great.

Shonna Foster:
Same time next week, Jeremy.

Cory Bowles: It’s awesome.

Jeremy Harty:

Hell no. No. Look at how I’m blushing. That’s how out of my comfort zone I am, but this was way less painful than I thought it would [crosstalk 01:15:47]-

Shonna Foster:
Would you do it live if it was, I don’t know, in a theater or stage?

Jeremy Harty: I’ve talked once.

Cory Bowles:
He did a live chat with me here during TIFF.

Jeremy Harty: Yeah. I did.

Cory Bowles:
For Penshoppe College. It was great. He was awesome too. I think you should [crosstalk 01:16:03]-

Jeremy Harty: I think-

Cory Bowles:
… more. I think it’s important. I think that he has a lot of good and valuable things to say.

Jeremy Harty:

Thanks, bud. Well, you have a lot to say too. You got to make your next film or TV series or short, whatever. Make what makes you happy.

Cory Bowles:
Whatever we’re doing, we’ll be back soon. We’ll be back soon.

Shonna Foster:
Thank you very much for offering me this opportunity, Cory, as well. I appreciate it.

Jeremy Harty:
It was nice to meet you.

Shonna Foster:

It was nice to meet you, Jeremy, and everybody thank you for tuning in. Have a good rest of your evening and-

Jeremy Harty: Bye, everyone.

Shonna Foster: … bye, everyone.

Sarah Taylor:

Thank you so much for joining us today and a big thank you goes to Jeremy, Cory, and Shonna. Special thanks goes to Jane MacRae. This episode was edited by Malcolm Taylor. The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall, additional ADR recording by Andrea Rusch. Original music provided by Chad Blain. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao.

The CCE has been supporting Indspire – an organization that provides funding and scholarships to Indigenous post secondary students. We have a permanent portal on our website at​ c​ ceditors.ca​ or you can donate directly at​ ​indspire.ca​. The CCE is taking steps to build a more equitable ecosystem within our industry and we encourage our members to participate in any way they can.

If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends to tune in. ‘Til next time I’m your host Sarah Taylor.

[Outtro]
The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member please visit our website www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

Subscribe Wherever You Get Your Podcasts

What do you want to hear on The Editors Cut?

Please send along any topics you would like us to cover or editors you would love to hear from:

Credits

A special thanks goes to

Jane MacRae

Karin Elyakim

Hosted and Produced by

Sarah Taylor

Edited by

Malcolm Taylor

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Original Music by

Chad Blain

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Sponsored by

Filet Production Services & Annex Pro/Avid

Categories
The Editors Cut

Episode 042: In Conversation with Mary Stephen, CCE

The Editors Cut - Episode 042

Episode 42: In Conversation with Mary Stephen, CCE

This episode is the online master series that took place on May 24th, 2020 - In Conversation with Mary Stephen, CCE.

This episode was generously Sponsored by Jaxx: A Creative House & Annex Pro/Avid

TEC_42_Mary Stephen, CCE_WEB

Born in Hong Kong and based in Paris, Mary Stephen has been working in narrative film and documentary for more than 30 years as an editor. Her work has been screened internationally at Venice, Cannes, and Tribeca film festivals.  Known for her decades-long collaboration with French filmmaker Eric Rohmer, she has worked in Europe and Asia on numerous award-winning feature documentaries and fiction including Tiffany Hsiung’s The Apology, Lixin Fan’s Last Train Home, Li Yang’s Blind Mountain, Ann Hui’s Our Time Will Come and the upcoming Love After Love.

 

This event was moderated by Xi Feng.

Listen Here

Sarah Taylor:

This episode was generously sponsored by Jaxx, a creative house and Annex Pro AVID. Hello and welcome to The Editor’s Cut, I’m your host Sarah Taylor. We’d like to point out that the lands we have created this podcast and that many of you may be listening to us from are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we are on ancestral territory, that has long served as a place where indigenous peoples have lived, met and interacted. We honor, respect, and recognize these nations that have never relinquished their rights or sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many contributions and the concerns that impact indigenous individuals and communities. Land acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.

This episode is the online master series that took place on May 24th, 2020 in conversation with Mary Stephen, CCE. Born in Hong Kong and based in Paris, Mary Stephen has been working in narrative film and documentary for more than 30 years as an editor. Her work has been screened internationally at Venice, Cannes, and the Tribeca Film Festivals. Known for her decades long collaboration with French filmmaker, Eric Rohmer. She has worked in Europe and Asia on numerous award-winning feature, documentaries and fiction, including Tiffany Hsiung’s The Apology, Lixin Fan’s The Last Train, Li Yang’s Blind Mountain, Ann Hui’s Our Time Will Come, and the upcoming Love After Love. This conversation was moderated by Xi Feng.

[show open]

Xi Feng:

My name is Xi Feng. I’m a film editor based in Montreal and it’s a great pleasure for me to introduce Mary and moderate this conversation with her. I met Mary in 2009 precisely, and also in the month of May. So 11 years ago, I met Mary when I was freshly out of university. I joined this post-production team of ​Last Train Home​ as assistant editor and Mary joining in May to cut the film. And I was not at all familiar with like the craft of editing. I was just starting, but she opened the whole door of magic to me in front of my eyes. And I can see because of like the amount of footage in documentary film, it’s massive. And I organized all the footage and I couldn’t imagine how we can craft a story out of that.

But like seeing Mary crafting some of the scenes amazingly and with such a cinematic touch, it just made me realize how great this craft and how important this process is. Later on, we had a longer personal relationship crossing from Canada, Asia, and in Paris, especially Paris. I met you a few times in Paris and you just always keep inspiring me in many levels. The most fascinating things is like that I always was inspired by you as an Asian Canadian who suddenly become in this like… of stepping in the middle of the French New Wave. Can you tell us a little bit about the story?

Mary Stephen:

It’s the story that’s already quite often told, but I think that we can tell it again in the context of the… because this is the Asian heritage month. I believe that it’s Asian heritage month in Canada and Asia Pacific heritage month in the States. In that context, it was a complete accident that I ended up… I mean, never would I have dreamt that I would end up in the middle of something so unlikely that is the

French New Wave. So I started in Hong Kong and already I was completely fascinated with the French New Wave because when I was 14, 15, we were going to scenic clubs and we saw all the films. We saw the Jules and Jim, L’année dernière à Marienbad, we saw Hiroshima mon amour, and of course 400 Blows, and of course Breathless, and all that.

And so it was completely an eye-opener. And after that, there was only one thing in my head, it was to go to Paris, to go to France. But it wasn’t that easy because my family immigrated to Canada and we were in Montreal, I finished university there. I actually went from mathematics to fine arts, to communication arts and specializing in cinema at that time with Charles Gagnon and Father Fisher and all the amazing Jesuit Fathers. And then I decided to go for a year in Paris for an exchange program with the University of Wisconsin. I’ve never been to Wisconsin, but it was one year in Paris. And by that time, I left and sold everything that I had in Canada. And somehow knew that probably it would be a one-way ticket, but without knowing how or why. And by the time that I got there within the first month I was sitting in the class of Eric Rohmer, he does a class for his students and everybody can sit in.

And it was the only class at that time which was really talking about filmmaking, is all I wanted to do was to make films. And he would take whatever that he was making that year, and he would have a theme whether it’s about decor or cinematography or whatever. And he would talk about that in practice, and this year it was about budget. And I mean, there’s nothing more…

It may be also a funny story because we were getting favors from, of course, all interview filmmakers from editing rooms and whatever that would let us have the room for cheap and so on. And we ended up in an editing room where these old actors, at that time we thought old, actors were actually dubbing porno films.

And so we were in this middle of this little, little, tiny place. And we were in the editing rooms editing our indie film and the next door is all this sound going on. So he (Eric Rohmer) came to see the process of editing. And then we… I mean, by that time I had gone to his office to ask for a budget and so on, all this is everywhere on the internet, the story. And he invited me for tea every afternoon in his office. The point of this story is, in this context, that at that time I never thought of it as something unusual. I mean, if I looked around at that time, there were no Asians in that milieu of cinema …

Xi Feng:
Yeah, there were very few Asians in French New Wave movies.

Mary Stephen:

… except a few. Truffaut had this Japanese girl in one of his films whom I met later, actually. And of course there were a lot of Vietnamese working in the makeup department or costumes department, but nothing like today that it’s so integrated.

Xi Feng:
By then the representation was also not a theme, right? Like cultural or racial representation.

Mary Stephen:

So at a certain time… and so it was completely by accident that I was dropped into the middle of this pot, I could go there every afternoon to have tea with Eric Rohmer and he was rehearsing, and I could go and see and so on. And what is more is that I really wanted to stay in Paris. To stay and work and live in Paris, but to do so I needed some money. And he asked me if I would agree or stoop to be his editor’s

assistant, and his editor being Cecile Decugis who edited Breathless. I mean, how can you refuse? And so that’s how it happens. And it’s turned out that this line that I’ve said many times, he said at the time, “Are you sure? Because Cecile is very nasty to her assistants. And she always makes them cry.​”

Xi Feng:
But stricter teacher teaches the best students.

Mary Stephen:

But she never. She never made me cry. She consoled me when I cried for something else, but we remained very good friends until the year she passed away, a couple of years ago. So I think that it has to do with luck, chance, and it has to do with grabbing that chance. And it has a lot to do with not thinking of yourself as victim, as a second zone (citizen), “I can’t do that because I’m not good enough. I’m Asian and I can’t go into mainstream, whatever”. That’s how it happens.

Xi Feng:

It’s fascinating that you talk about that Eric teacher of course of budgets, because I remember watching one of his interview, he was exactly mentioning that. He said like, “Instead of making one big budget, Hollywood films, we could make 10 good cinema with the same amount of money. And it’s a bigger contribution to the art of cinema in the history of cinema.” And he also had a very special approach of work. Can you also tell us a little bit?

Mary Stephen:

Yeah. The budget was very important to him in the sense that, I remember he borrowed a VHS from me of a Marguerite Duras​’​s film; well, he admired the way that she made films, Duras, but more than anything else, he admired the way that she made films with nothing, with a very small budget. And that was how he operated. He didn’t want to rely on… (showing photos) here he is making a Super 8 movie, and here is my offspring. This is in his office and this was when we were still editing in film, of course. He has his crew and cast basically already in place, like a theater troupe kind of thing. And he didn’t want to rely on big financiers or big television companies to make those films.

Xi Feng:

I think it will be very interesting to explore this method after this COVID time, to have a reduced crew and to still maintain the production.

Mary Stephen:

The advantage of that too, is that they lived together. They lived in one big house. So, basically it’s overlooking the beach, this is “SUMMER’S TALE”. And overlooking the beach, so they were able to… because it was in Brittany, the weather was very changing. And so every time that the sun comes out or the light is good, he says, “Okay, let’s go.” And then they just go. I mean, can you imagine today doing something like that, that is really a lesson to be learned because nowadays for a short film you have like on the credits, there are about 30, 40 people.

Xi Feng:

I guess like people who are influenced by Rohmer. Like Hong San Soo for example, they do films in this manner. They do smaller budgets films, and yet very prolific productions.

Mary Stephen:

Yeah this is his 100th year of birth. So there is in his hometown of Tulle, there are all kinds of festivities that they are actually… One of the thing is that they’re inviting… they don’t have a lot of budget but they are trying to have a category called the cineastes who are influenced by Rohmer. So there’s a lot of cineastes in Japan, in China, in Korea, in the States.

Xi Feng:

Well, after Rohmer passed away, and even before that, you started to edit films with young filmmakers from China, Turkey, and Canada, and France. And many filmmakers refer to you as the godmother of the independent films in these countries. And can you talk to us a little bit about the transition? And I imagine the role, it’s such a big shift.

Mary Stephen:

From Rohmer, I mean, later on in this talk, we’re going to get a little bit more into certain things about technique and stuff, but it is also related to what we’re talking about now, in terms of that when I was working with Rohmer, it was more like it is a way from the cinema, from the industry in any case. Because he would quite often come into the editing room and open the newspaper and say, “Let’s see what’s happening in the cinema world today.” Like he considered himself away from it. I remember that several friends were saying to me, “you’ll have to think about the post Rohmer period​”.

Because he was getting on, he was not going to be eternal. And he was making films until he was 89. At a certain time, I had an offer from China. There was already an offer in Chinese language of a documentary film that I was going to edit in France with a French co-producer.

And that is basically because of the language. And at that time I had never really edited a documentary before. I must talk about this because at that time, and still may be a little bit now, that documentary and fiction films, the two worlds are very separate. Even though that today the filmmakers, directors…even though the boundaries are being a fluid a little bit more-

Xi Feng: Blurred, yes.

Mary Stephen:

Yeah, blurred. And at that time, the documentary world seemed to be much more serious. I just had the feeling that it was la chasse gard​é​e. It’s like a world that we were too frivolous to enter. And so by chance of because I was Chinese, they offered me to cut this film with a Chinese documentary filmmaker that I will not name, but it wasn’t a happy experience. And especially since it was my first documentary film. But sometime later, Isabelle Glachant who does a lot of Chinese, French liaison and co-productions, she told me that Li Yang was looking for someone to cut Blind Mountain. And I had liked his Blind Shaft before. But at that very same moment… In fact, everything happened at the same time that year. I was actually talking with a very dear friend of mine, Harry Sutherland, who was producing documentaries at the time in Vancouver. And he told me that he was visiting some Armenian filmmaker

friends and sitting there was a Turkish film director, Huseyin Karabey, who was a human rights documentary director, but who was pitching his first fiction.

So he said that if Huseyin could get into Rotterdam to pitch his film, then Harry would go with him to help him. And indeed he got selected. And so Harry and the co-producer Sophie (Lorant) called me from Rotterdam and said, “There’s a film you have to edit.” And at that time I was just getting out of the Rohmer phase, he was slowing down his activities, and I didn’t quite know what I was getting into. I was supposed to be advising this film. And at the same time, I had already committed to going to China. When I saw the material, I thought, okay, you can’t have just someone to come in once every month and say, “Okay, you do this and do that.” You need someone hands-on to do this because the script needed to be changed. So they agreed with the English co-producer Lucinda (Englehart) as well.

And so I was going off to Istanbul for three weeks in a row, and come back for a week to edit another Chinese film. And that was a very eye-opening experience. And so it comes back to something that I really want to talk about in terms of a career change and that kind of thing, is that I think that every time it is a flow. Opportunities come and I think that I like to take things that are a little bit outside of my comfort zone. I am someone who’s like basically quite… I’m not an adventurer. It has to be within a certain limit.

[crosstalk 00:18:55] But certainly going to edit in a language that I don’t understand and going to a region that I don’t understand at all, it was quite fascinating, and really challenging, and very exciting. So that really opened the door to a whole wave of young Turkish, indie filmmakers. That somehow it was also a new experience to be the only one in there who had the most experience. I mean, it’s a complete change that I felt like I had the least experience or not that much experience in a very old, traditional French cinema.

Xi Feng:

In different countries they also have different cinema culture and the different industry or working method, I imagine. And the role of the editor will play… are different in those industries. How would you navigate this relationship between those countries?

Mary Stephen:

It’s true that the role of the editor is very different. It was very different in Asia and certainly like in Turkey and so on. And certainly in China it has changed a great deal because when I started there, it was why I said the first experience was not a good one, is that they are used to working with editors who are technicians, who are like punching (buttons)-

Xi Feng:
[crosstalk 00:20:26] Yeah.

Mary Stephen:

And so, in fact it’s the director who makes all the other choices and then you just punch. Which is not the way that we work in Europe, or I suppose North America. It had to be a sort of change of mindset. It was not so much a change of technique, but you really have to convince them that you can be the

collaborator of a director and that you’re not taking their film away from them. You’re not becoming the parent of the film. I’m always saying that it’s like being a midwife. I’m just here to deliver your baby. The baby is going to look like you, and then once I give you the baby, I will fade away, which is sometimes heartbreaking. But that is the case.

Xi Feng:

I guess also because you worked with a lot of young filmmakers and sometimes first-time filmmakers that happens a lot that they might have this kind of insecurity of handing the film material into a very advanced experienced editor.

Mary Stephen:

Things are changing. I mean, slowly, slowly, things are changing. For the last 15 years, I can see that things are changing in terms of that there’s a lot more trust, there’s a lot more understanding of what the role of an editor is, and what an editor can bring to a project, whether it is a fiction or documentary. And especially in documentary, like in more developing countries, there is more understanding that you need an experienced editor to at least final shape your film kind of thing.

Xi Feng:

Yeah. We often say that editors are the unsung hero of the film and our work always goes unnoticeable when it’s good.

Mary Stephen:
It’s changing, it’s changing.

On the other hand, we don’t need to be so much in the spotlight because I mean, basically it’s a work that is very internal and if we are out in the spotlight all the time, we would get distracted. It’s like the way that I work is that I have to isolate myself in an editing room and I can’t even have somebody beside me.

So in fact, it is very frustrating for trainees or assistants who are trying to learn something in the editing room. And unfortunately I can never accept because just the presence and the vibrations of somebody else in the room, zaps my thoughts.

Xi Feng:

And recently you work a lot in Hong Kong, was Hong Kong indie films. And even with Ann Hui your current film, latest film Our Time Will Come. Can you tell us a little bit about this new journey towards Hong Kong cinema and back to the roots?

Mary Stephen:

The Hong Kong cinema… Actually, I read somewhere that, after an interview, somebody wrote that, “And then Ann Hui brought her back to her birthplace to work as an editor,” which is very interesting because in fact, I had been doing quite a few indie films in Hong Kong and China, but mostly in Hong Kong for a while before doing a bigger Ann Hui film. So it comes back to … I was making some notes about this. When I was talking about documentary and fiction editing, and that we as fiction… that

come from fiction, we didn’t feel, I didn’t feel legitimate as a serious documentary editor; from my view they (documentary editors) have so much more stuff, so much more substance. And that this is the same. I mean, in the sense that even though you have been working with smaller films and indie films, and so on, then legitimacy comes when you are working with more important, more well known, more experienced director, it’s like a stamp of approval, which is okay.

I really admire the way that both Ann Hui and Eric Rohmer do things because they are in a system, they are in an industry, but they are keeping a sort of mindset that is very independent. And when I’m editing with Ann, it’s that we’re editing where I sleep and what I like to do, I like to edit exactly where I sleep. So there’s nobody to disturb us. It’s not like in this editing studio where you have all kinds of people and pressure from producers and so on. She is very protective about that. She’s very good about that. That she works like an independent person exactly like Eric Rohmer would be working with me. And I admire them both because they are these survivors in this industry. First of all it’s called an industry, not in art form, not anything like a… It’s an industry.

So they are survivors in that format, and at the same time she is even more because she is a woman. And the more I know about, the more that I have navigated in the Hong Kong cinema, the Chinese cinema, that kind of thing, and Hong Kong commercial cinema thing, the more I think what amazing thing that she has done. How any woman is still standing after 50 years in this thing? I mean-

Xi Feng:

A very extremely tough position for a woman to stand in Asian culture I find. In a culture of male dominant world and culture.

Mary Stephen:

Yes, working with her was really… I mean, somehow it legitimized my working in Hong Kong cinema, but she would be the first to say that she didn’t start by working with me.

Ann is very supportive of the younger filmmakers.

Xi Feng:
And she’s one of the most unique cinema authors in Hong Kong cinema.

Mary Stephen: Yes, absolutely.

Xi Feng:

In China, in Hong Kong cinema industry, I feel like there was like a big portion of commercial films and they’re just like smaller voices for… smaller portion for the cinema d’auteur as we say, and she’s one of them and she insist, and you can see that stamina coming from her and her films.

Mary Stephen:

There’s something to say here about the fact that… you would notice if you see her filmography… that she works with all the top people in every category except me (laugh). I mean, I’m sort of the non-top person. And so basically she has the choice of doing that. But she also likes to work with whoever that

she wants to work with. The thing is that, why I say that it’s not false modesty, it is the reality of the industry. I’m not a, how do you say, like in the old days when you tried to get finance a film, you have to bring in a bankable star. So there are bankable technicians as well and I’m not one of them. She pulls her weight to say, like, “I want to work with Mary.” And why is it that? The thing is that, I think it is the same as working with any director, actually. Is that the more they have substance, the more they’re experienced, the more they are good, the more they want you to surprise them.

Not that they want you to surprise them…the more they know you will surprise them. You will bring them something that they haven’t thought of, otherwise what’s the use?

Xi Feng:
So they’re seeking for collaboration, but they’re not just-

Mary Stephen: Yeah, exactly.

Xi Feng:
… picking a technician.

Mary Stephen:

Yeah, exactly. So again, it comes back to the very first point, don’t think of yourself as a victim or a second best, or as not commercial enough or whatever, or a woman or Asian or whatever. Just that if you are there… like I am in the office of Eric Rohmer, I’m in the editing room with Ann Hui, I know that I’m there because I have something to give.

Xi Feng:

Do you think with all these choices you have certain guidelines to make the career choices or with who you work with and with the project you work on? How do you make those choices?

Mary Stephen:

Well, I think that I’m in a lucky place, I’m in a good place that I can choose. It was not always the case, of course, but when it was not the case I was protected by Eric Rohmer. But even so, I’ve made some choices that are purely to get money on the table. Basically, I choose projects not just because it’s an exciting project. And it’s certainly not because it’s going to be an award-winning project or that is going to be a very high-profile project, but I choose them for people. Really, it’s for the subject and for the person that I will be working with and the people that I will be working with. Because I think that quite early already I realized that I’m not an easy person. I mean, that in the sense that I don’t… I see quite a few friends colleagues who are much better than me in terms of getting along with people and I can’t (laugh). I’m not very good at saying things to… and if I feel that somebody doesn’t have any respect, I can’t work with that person.

Xi Feng:

‘cos it’s like an intimate relationship working with a director in a production. Mary Stephen:

And quite often I’ve said that you don’t choose an editor for… quite often that people may choose me for the wrong reasons. They may think that I have connections with certain people, with certain producers, or with certain festivals or so on, or that I speak Chinese. That is not the reason I would choose a project. And certainly not the reason that I would choose my career path. And in a way I do have a very strange career in the sense that it’s very indie, it is very respected. People wonder why I’m not on some big commercial projects or high-profile projects. But basically, I cannot work with big egos and I tend to shy away from that. And I think that I have much more satisfaction in nurturing new talent. And I like to work with first and second films. And for me, it’s much more satisfying to be working with younger people or people with whom I have a good chemistry than just choosing a project that I know will go on the Oscars list.

Xi Feng:

And I think it’s a common attitude with the French film industry that is this disregard of superficial elements in filmmaking.

Mary Stephen:
Some people might think of it this stupid.

Xi Feng: Why?

Mary Stephen:
Why did I not take this or that, or that? I suppose I’m not a… How do you say, a “careerist”.

Xi Feng:
Probably the satisfaction always comes from within like the sincerity or an authenticity we have with our-

Mary Stephen:
I think that you need that in order to give something. Oh, in any case, I do.

Xi Feng:

Yeah. Filmmaking is such an intimate way of working as well. In any creation we have to kind of pour ourselves out highly. So it could be exhausting if the energy is not right with the other party.

Mary Stephen:

I do regret some choices, (laugh) “but why didn’t I take this? Otherwise I would be up there now on the stage.” No, no, I’m just joking.

Xi Feng:
… (that’s probably why) you choose Paris…

Mary Stephen:
Yes, okay. It can be worse.

Xi Feng:

What I learned from working with you is that I realized editing is such tremendous craft that are also very subtle and mysterious. Because sometime in my early career, I was never able to ask the precise question about pacing, everything seems very large or very specific. So it goes into like one project, every project, and where every theme might be different. So it’s very hard to understand this magic. And as you said you often work alone?

Mary Stephen: Right.

Xi Feng:

It makes the process even more mysterious sometimes. So we want to know more about your concept of editing and what’s are the important points that you think about. Because sometimes with the same material, different editors obviously come out with different solutions, and different pacing. And within a few frames or a few adjustments, it could entirely change the scene.

Mary Stephen:

Yes. I see that … just trying to look sideways into the chats that there are many friends who are here and so many editors, wonderful to see from everywhere from England, from India, from everywhere. The magic, okay. It comes back to… it always like this is the third point about legitimacy. It’s interesting, because it goes back to the fact that I went to Communication Arts at Loyola in Concordia. At that time we were not a film school, we were a communication arts department. And so we had different things like photography whatever, whatever, radio, and that kind of stuff. And I chose film but it was not at all like a film school structure like today that you learn editing, you learn the three-act structure and you learn the whatever, 360, 180 rule whatever.

I never went through those. We had to make a few films and basically that’s it. And so when I was then propelled into this editor role by Eric Rohmer as an assistant editor, and then when Cecile retired, I became his editor. So I never went through that process of learning formally about editing.

Everything, well, happened because we were just putting his images together and stuff. So everything was learned intuitively. And that’s what I mean by magic, especially after the Eric Rohmer years, when I went into cutting films with indie filmmakers, some of them… especially with the first films, first and second films, you have this massive material that sometimes there’s a rough cut, but the magic is not there. And that I come in and I’m supposed to be this experienced editor and I’m supposed to make it happen.

In fact, I had always had a problem with legitimacy that I never went through that legitimate process of being the trained editor kind of thing. So the only way to deal with it is… sort of an emotional intuitive way of shutting myself with the material, looking at it, feeling it and really feeling where the magic might be. And I’m always saying that I think that there’s a Tinkerbell somewhere in the editing room and all of a sudden she would spread some of those magic dust and something would happen that I had never thought of. And sometimes today, when I look at films that I’ve edited, “How did I think of that?” Not sure that it would happen the second time. Magic really is a big point.

That is why you have to trust in your intuitions. And after that, when I started to… People asked me to start doing classes or do talks and so on, then I started to have to formulate my thoughts. And that’s when I started to think that, okay, maybe the way that I work is that I try to make a scene more surprising. I try to start it or somehow work it around so that the audience is not expecting me to cut it this way or to cut it here or so on. I mean, very recently I’ve seen, I don’t know whether he’s still here, a rough cut from a project that we are coaching right now, for Venice. We were going back and forth on this cut and then all of a sudden that I got another cut and I said to him, the director, who’s also an editor. “Wow.” I gave a little bit of advice or a little bit of suggestion and he can actually cut it on a cut point that I didn’t expect. And that’s really delightful. People like what I do also for the same thing. And I look for it to cut it a different way, to make it… the sin, I think, is when a scene is flat.

Xi Feng:
Very easy to cut a scene flat. I think-

Mary Stephen:

Actually, there’s nothing wrong with it. The rough cut by my assistant in Turkey, there’s nothing wrong with it whatsoever. It’s all the information is there, all the dramaturgy is there. But somehow I think that everybody can just keep working at a scene to find another way in, another way to make it more surprising.

Another thing that I like to do very much to install a kind of magic, to install more of a dramatic structure is prologues, in documentaries as well as fiction films. I think that when you get into a film, like me as a regular audience as well, when you have a strong opening of a film, you get hooked. And I think that the opening, it doesn’t have to be something that is completely connected with the film. It doesn’t have to be chronological. It can be something quite abstract, but as long as you get the… It’s like giving you a key to the film, but you don’t know which door it’s going to open.

Xi Feng:

I guess like with editing you can really change one character’s intention by changing the cuts, in different bits of emotion.

Mary Stephen:

The structure of the film, yes. Things like that can change… It doesn’t change the story, but it certainly changes the development of the character, which is important.

Xi Feng:
For studying intrigue, and pacing, and jump cuts.

Mary Stephen:

The thing about jump cuts is that it’s not something that is a learnable. It’s really a learning process. I mean, it’s really a process of experimenting with different… of doing it a lot, a lot, a lot and then you realize that it works or it doesn’t work and so on. I like to do jump cuts but only if it really does work. There have been many times that people have asked me how to learn to do jump cuts and there’s no way, I don’t think so. It comes to sort of we’re going to tie it in with a little bit of what I quite often say to young filmmakers or young film editors is that, “How do you train to be an editor?” Of course there are software to learn and so on, but software, nowadays you can learn “guide for dummies, how to do this, and that” or online, there’s not much to it.

Xi Feng:
You can cut a YouTube video or something.

Mary Stephen:

And I quite often say that when we come to emotional editing, when we’re trying to edit emotions, that editors we are like actors in the sense that we can only give what we know. I mean, of course you don’t have… to be able to express terror, you don’t have to experience terror yourself because there’s empathy as well. A human being has empathy and you can work on that. But I think that it is important to live a life, it’s important to experience emotions.

And so you have this reserve of emotions that you know how it feels to do this or that. And that here you might draw out more of this emotion. Everything is linked with life. I think that you cannot be just a blank page.

You have to experience pain and so on, to be able to perfect or to improve your craft. Quite often I say that also in terms of technicality, to listen to a lot of music. And I think that that helps a lot with jump cuts because it’s really rhythmic and musical. To read a lot of poetry because poetry is really the condensation of… basically, poetry is editing. You’re trying to express a lot in terms of description of a scene or communicating emotions by just a few words. I’m thinking of Chinese poetry, of course. So, that is editing really. That is storytelling in terms of editing, the ellipses and so on, it’s all in poetry.

And the third thing is going to train your visuals, your eye. Look at paintings, look at buildings, the space, how a body moves in space. Just stare outside your window and look at how a body moves through space. Somehow it will help with your editing. I think that those things are very important.

Xi Feng:

And you also work a lot with music and sound-

Mary Stephen:

I don’t even dare to play the “CHINA ME” clip because we don’t hear anything. I like to work with a very minimalist music. I think it’s quite often that I work with sound designers who are working with sounds as if it’s music, and that in documentaries I work with narration as well. I know that a lot of documentary… that there’s a lot of debate in documentaries about whether we put narration, voiceover and so on. But I think there’s a way to do it so that these words of narration, you just treat them like elements in a piece of music and you put them in places where it has to be in counterpoint with the music. The little bit of moving here, a little bit of moving there and so on.

So everything becomes a minimalist kind of a work. It’s like lacework, it’s really a lot of very detailed work. And I think that is something that perhaps today we’re not used to. I mean, it comes to the notion of a fast world. Are we talking about a fast world where being fast is synonymous of being good when you are thinking about, you know, I’m working hours on this… I moved a little bit here so that this word comes between the two beats and that kind of thing. And people would say who the hell is going to notice that? And I guarantee you that they may not know what hit them, but they notice that. They feel that, they don’t notice it but they feel it. Sometimes I read about being fast. I remember some jokes… my Turkish director who brought his rough-cut, a young editor, to Paris to see me do the next cut, who’s a very nice guy. This young guy said to his director, “Mary would never be able to work here (in Turkey) because she’s so slow.​”

Xi Feng:

A good editing do take time and now we in the industry we have a culture of like doing everything pretty super fast.

Mary Stephen:

Yes. Yes. I think that we are trained to live super fast as well. So editing is a slow process. There’s no way that you can do it fast. Especially when we think of documentary editing, it just takes years, right? I mean, I think a lot of my friends here can tell you.

And quite often it is necessary to put it aside, let it rest, and then come back to it. And the point is now, since we are living in a fast world, we’re living in a fast financial world and that the money has to be fast in everything, documentary editing, there’s never enough time. I mean, I’m always giving extra time because like I would say, okay, you have this budget, but obviously I think a lot of my documentary colleagues do the same thing, obviously before and after you have all this chunk of free time that you’re giving to the film.

What is the solution? And it comes back really now to full circle to the Eric Rohmer system. He had his own company. He made a smaller company who would be self-sufficient, who would be able to finance their own films because he has his whole crew, the closest circle, the closest friends are those who are, “We can pick up a camera and go.”

He has this circle of actors who has their friends as well. And we are willing to do that. And we can shoot minimalist films that don’t need big crews, and we don’t need to a lot of actors. So it comes back to this whole system of independence. And this is not impossible. I mean, now we are entering maybe post- pandemic or whatever.

Our world has to come back to this. And I know that there are some participants there who has an animation studio who are actually capable of making films on their own. If they don’t get the whole financial package because they have their whole structure, the structure is in place. And that’s the whole thing. I think that we have to get back to the system where the human structure is in place, because everything’s up here.

Xi Feng:

Maybe there’s too much emphasis on technology, and speed, and productivity these days, because good cinema really takes time and soul to make.

Mary Stephen:

Perhaps the last point that I wanted to make before the question is that a lot of younger filmmakers, they are quite often asking me, “Can this film go to this and that festival?” Quite often my thought is, why don’t you make a good film first. Concentrate on making a good film before the marketing bit. And that there’s this, when we were chatting the other day, we were saying that the whole system between European cinema, Asian cinema, and North American cinema, is that like North American audiences will not tolerate or will not accept a certain pace of our way in Europe to do art-house cinema, or Asian cinema.

But there’s a thing about training your audience. I always talk about certain friends that I have from Canada or elsewhere, who never in the old days, who never went to an exhibition, had nothing to do with arts and so on. And by and by, through the years they start going, they start reading. They’re going to cinema all the time, seeing art-house films that they would never have gone to see 20 years ago. So you can train audiences. I mean, we were trained. So-

Xi Feng:

Sometime I feel like in North America, and especially there is an assumption that the audience don’t know, so you have to explain a lot to them, but in European cinema normally, it’s like we assume that the audience are intelligent.

Mary Stephen:

We’ll open to the questions, I’ll just tell one funny anecdote is that when Hou Hsiao-Hsien, The Assassin came out, I was in China. I was in Hangzhou with my whole family and we are big, big Hou Hsiao-Hsien fans. So we went immediately en masse to the cinema, to the neighborhood cinema including “lao wai” (the foreigner) my daughter’s boyfriend, who’s a Western guy. We were like seven or eight people, and we wanted to go see The Assassin. And the girl at the ticket counter just looked at us and said, “No, no, you don’t. You don’t want to see this.” We said, “We do, we do, we do.” She said, “No, no, no, no, no. The Transformer is over there. It’s much better for you.” And I got really mad at her. I said, “No, no, don’t tell me what I want to see.”

And then of course we did go and see The Assassin with a whole cinema full of people who were talking on the phone saying (loudly), “I’m in the cinema now.”

Okay, shall I just read out one question?

Xi Feng:
Oh, there are-

Mary Stephen:

Oh yeah. I think that we already treated that a little bit. “Do you feel that European and Asian cinemas are similar in pace and flow?” Not necessarily. So, there’s a difference between a European cinema and Asian cinema, but both have the similarity or the advantage of being rooted in something more spiritual. I always say that not for nothing, that in France, your last year of high school, you have to pass philosophy before you can graduate from high school. That changes a man, and a woman. And in Asia there’s this whole culture on thought and Buddhist and Taoist thoughts and so on. I mean, it just changes the pace and the flow of everything.

Xi Feng:
You have a question, “How do I impress young directors or producers when they complain that you’re

slow?​”
Mary Stephen:

Well, most of the time I’m in a good place. They can’t complain, I’d say, “I quit.” Most of the time it’s a favor I’m doing them anyway. They know that if they come to me, is that they know that. And most of the times now I say ahead of time that I’m very slow. So don’t come to me if you want something fast. And I always say that it’s not a matter of trying to find the best editor for your film; it’s a marriage, it’s finding the best partner for your film. Like I said, I need to be by myself, but some editors love to do this ping pong with the directors. And that’s very enriching. With some (directors) I do this ping pong thing, but only when there is a big trust that has been installed.

Xi Feng:
“Do you have a working relationship with screenwriter?”

Mary Stephen:

Screenwriters? I don’t particularly, but in fact, in the sense that editing has a lot to do with screenwriting and quite often now that since I’m involved a lot with indie films in that… so I’m basically also involved in the production or trying to associate-produce some indie films because it’s the only way that they will come on my table, is if I find them partners who can maybe find financing and so on. And so to do that, then I found like from about 10 years ago, I started getting into the screenwriting stage because… that was (illustrated in) one of the clips that we didn’t show is “MAJORITY”… but I can put that in the bin (that I will distribute to participants). MAJORITY is that Turkish film that won the first film award, the Lion of the Future in Venice. When they came to me, actually they had a rough cut.They had the winter scenes of the boy who’s become a man, a young man. And they have 12 pages of summer scenes of the boy in his childhood. And it has to do with his father who’s a sort of fascist character and how he grew up to be just like his father.

I remember that at that time, actually it was Cameron Bailey who put me on this film because he saw the rough cut and he thought that it might be worth my while to look into it. And I became very good friends with the team and the director, actually. And they said, just before they were going to shoot the summer scenes, I looked at the winter scenes of the man, and I said, “You only need one strong scene

for the beginning as a prologue, to install the dynamics of this family, of the young boy terrified of his father, of his wife who is very submissive, of the Kurdish maid who’s like the underdog in this whole situation.”

So we installed that scene. And of course the producers were very happy because they were off two weeks of, they didn’t have to shoot for two weeks and it saved a lot of money. And so that’s the kind of thing that it has to… it’s all mixed up with screenwriting. So I do a lot of script consultancy as well.

Xi Feng:

Yeah. Sometimes the editing, I feel like the script has certain problem that goes beyond shooting and then it’s for us to solve those problems, it would be better to get earlier into the process.

Mary Stephen:

Right. Yeah. Also that’s the point, is that we can’t do miracles. If it’s not shot properly, I mean, if there’s not something there, there’s no way that we can… And one of the things that I don’t agree with and that it’s really a phenomenon of today’s filmmaking of digital filmmaking is everywhere I hear BOPA (in Chinese)…

Xi Feng:
Pickup shooting.

Mary Stephen:
… makeup shooting, right?

Xi Feng:
Pickup shooting.

Mary Stephen:

Pickup shooting. We don’t BOPA. I mean, certainly in “film” filmmaking, you don’t have the time and money to go and pick up all these things.

And now with the digital, everybody is going to do the pickup shooting so they don’t think ahead of time.

Xi Feng:
Good question relating to this point and from [inaudible 00:59:41], “How do you deal with the

phenomenon now like of overshooting too many rushes do you still watch it all?​” Mary Stephen:

No. Hi [inaudible 00:59:51]. Let’s say in documentaries, no. In fiction, yes. In fiction, in fact, I watch all the rushes in every little detail, every little expression, because there are ways to combine the different things.

In documentaries, I don’t, for the simple reason that I ask the director first to give me a selection of his/her characters and situations, and by that selection, I also get to know what he or she is censoring from me.

And I always ask them to provide me with a whole set of rushes so that by what they’re not showing me, I mean, around what they are showing me, I can figure out what they are not showing me. But no, I mean, I know that sometimes documentaries have a thousand hours. No, I don’t watch them all because the directors, usually they have even eliminated certain characters that are useless.

Xi Feng:
“Would it be, for instance, if you were working with the director, like David Fincher who shot 99 shots

for every take?​” Mary Stephen:

Obviously I’m not working with David Fincher. I do not have the time and patience to work with David Fincher. No, I mean, it’s okay. If people don’t want to work with me it’s okay. I mean, like I said, it’s just a marriage. You can find another partner.

Xi Feng:
So you will not work with someone who overshoots like in that kind of matter.

Mary Stephen:

No, no. There are certain situations where you overshoot because of certain problems. But I need to see that the filmmaker is thinking. He’s not overshooting because he doesn’t know what to do. Sometimes the overshoot is that because, especially in documentaries, there’s something valuable, something interesting that’s happening, but he or she doesn’t know that it doesn’t come into this film. And quite often I would say like with Du Haibin, it happens a lot. But let’s put it in another film, this is another film. And that we can make another film completely on this other theme.

Xi Feng:

We have a question from Xiao Xiao, “How much sound editing do you do in your editing process? Which part of the sound work do you do? And to which extent you would say, okay, I’ll leave it to the sound editor?​”

Mary Stephen:

I do a lot of sound work. In fact, I mean, I’d lay all the suggestions, sometimes a director like Eric Rohmer would go out and record every little single little bird that he hears to put here and there. But I do a lot of suggestions. And because I can’t see… like especially in North America, it’s also separated. You have the

sound editor, you have the dialogue editor, you have a music editor. I don’t see how you can edit a film, (how) you can have the vision of a film, without having a global vision of everything. Especially in sound, I use a lot of sound editing for my work and that’s quite a lot of times it propels the action, it creates an emotion, it sets the pace.

And quite oftentimes, when I say that, if you have two cuts, two scenes, two shots that don’t cut together, put a sound on the cut. I have a stock of favorite sounds. And I talk about it a lot-

Xi Feng:
I actually learned that trick from you.

Mary Stephen:

Yeah, a motorcycle in the night, especially far away. A Crow, crows are very useful, a dog… And you put it on the cut. And I guarantee you that that cut will pass.

Xi Feng:
Yeah, now it’s more demanding too for editors to do sound work.

Mary Stephen:
You have to do that. How do you know the length of the shot if you don’t do the sound work? Yeah.

Yes I do have a dream project, but it’s not an editing project. It’s the writing project or directing project. Yeah. But I don’t want to direct a feature film anymore. I mean, we didn’t talk about my filmmaking part, it’s just that having edited so many feature films for the last years, especially the last little while with the indie filmmakers, it’s just so much pain, but I would like to continue making short films. Yes.

Sherman is asking whether Eric Rohmer only used natural light for his films. No, not to only because in his last films, he was shooting in studio. So there was a lot of “real”, real lights, but quite often he did go for a naturalistic feel. Yeah, for sure.

“How do you use natural sound as an editing motivation?” Yes, definitely. A lot of sounds as natural sounds, but enhanced natural sounds. We don’t have the time to show “CHINA ME”, but we will try to see what we can do in terms of clips that are private. In terms of explaining these things that I have a very good sound designer here, an indie sound designer Pierre Carrasco. And I like his work because he would, he would… this shot of electric wires on a highway and then I hear this sound. And in fact, he’s making these electrical sounds so that when the car is driving by, you hear zzzzzz, like this kind of sound because it’s a very emotional scene and there’s a poetry going on and so on.

And then when the car is on the highway, there’s this hum of sounds and it just brings a completely different emotional soundscape.

Xi Feng:

I think we have time for a last question. “Why do you make movies? Who do you want your audience to be?”

Mary Stephen:

Who do I want my audience to be? Anyone who wants to watch. I think that should be the thought of every young filmmaker. Like what we said before, don’t go and make a film that you think will, that you need to get into Cannes or something like that. Make a film for one person. But if you can touch one person, is enough, and then you will touch 10,000.

Xi Feng:

Or do you think you should make… When we cut the film, should we think a lot about the audience or not really?

Mary Stephen:

It depends because you know, you may have an order. It might be a television documentary. Even television documentaries that I tried to push the boundary, you need to think about what the order was. Whether it’s an indie film, whether it’s for a cinema, whether it’s for Arte or whatever. Yeah you have to think about the framework, the context, and then you push the boundary. It’s like what I said about you have a scene, you can cut a scene that is classic, that is normal, that is okay. Everything is fine. And then you push the boundary.

Xi Feng:
Thank you very much. I think our time is here. Such a pleasure to talk to you as always.

Mary Stephen: See you all.

Xi Feng: See you all.

Sarah Taylor:

Thank you so much for joining us today. And a thank you goes to Mary and Xi. Special thanks goes to Jane MacRae. This episode was edited by Jason Pinosa.

The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall, additional ADR recording by Andrea Rusch. Original music provided by Chad Blain. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Bao. The CCE has been supporting Indspire – an organization that provides funding and scholarships to Indigenous post secondary students. We have a permanent portal on our website at​ ​cceditors.ca​ or you can donate directly at​ ​indspire.ca​. The CCE is taking steps to build a more equitable ecosystem within our industry and we encourage our members to participate in any way they can.

If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends to tune in. ‘Til next time I’m your host Sarah Taylor.

[Outtro]

The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member please visit our website www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

Subscribe Wherever You Get Your Podcasts

What do you want to hear on The Editors Cut?

Please send along any topics you would like us to cover or editors you would love to hear from:

Credits

A special thanks goes to

Jane MacRae

Nagham Osman

Hosted and Produced by

Sarah Taylor

Edited by

Jason Konoza

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Original Music by

Chad Blain

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Sponsored by

Jaxx: A Creative House & Annex Pro/Avid

Categories
The Editors Cut

Episode 041 – Edit Chats with Ken Filewych, CCE

The Editor's Cut - Episode 041 - Edit Chats with Ken Filewych, CCE

Episode 41: Edit Chats with Ken Filewych, CCE

This episode is the online master series that took place on May 13th, 2020, Edit Chat's with Ken Filewych. CCE.

TEC_EP041_MS_Edmonton_Ken_Filewych_CCE-WEB

Ken’s diverse career has included editing Joni Mitchell’s ballet The Fiddle and the Drum, Tricia Helfer’s Walk All Over Me and the legendary band the smalls reunion tour documentary Forever Is A Long Time. He has also cut over 100 episodes of Heartland – the longest running one hour drama in Canadian history on which he is currently serving as Supervising Picture Editor.

Besides editing, Ken has directed dramatic television, commercials and live sports events.

Sarah Taylor and Ken talk about workflow and process with an emphasis on speed and why Ken thinks being fast is part of being a great editor.

This episode was sponsored by Annex Pro/Avid

Listen Here

The Editor’s Cut – Episode 041 – Interview with Ken Filewych, CCE

 

Sarah Taylor:

This episode was generously sponsored by Annex Pro and Avid.

            Hello, and welcome to the Editor’s Cut, I’m your host, Sarah Taylor. We would like to point out that the lands on which we have created this podcast, and that many of you may be listening to us from, are part of ancestral territory. It is important for all of us to deeply acknowledge that we are on ancestral territory that has long served as a place where indigenous peoples have lived, met and interacted. We honor, respect, and recognize these nations that have never relinquished their rights or sovereign authority over the lands and waters on which we stand today. We encourage you to reflect on the history of the land, the rich culture, the many contributions, and the concerns that impact indigenous individuals and communities. Land acknowledgements are the start to a deeper action.

 

The CCE is pleased to present Edit Con 2021, the Fourth Annual Conference on the art of picture editing. This year it will be a two day online conference on Saturday, February 20 and Sunday, February 21, 2021. Edit Con 2021 is presented under the theme of Shifting World, Shifting Industry. Tickets are on sale now at cceeditcon.neme.tv, that is C-C-E-E-D-I-T-C-O-N-dot-N-E-M-E-dot-T-V. Hope to see you there.

 

Today’s episode is the Online Master Series that took place on May 13, 2020. Edit chats with Ken Filewych, CCE. Ken’s diverse career has included editing Joni Mitchell’s ballet, The Fiddle in the Drum, Trisha Helfer’s, Walk All Over Me and the legendary band, The Smalls’ reunion tour documentary, Forever is a Long Time. He has also cut over 100 episodes of Heartland, the longest running one-hour drama in Canadian history on which he’s currently serving as Supervising Picture Editor. Besides editing, Ken has directed dramatic television, commercials, and live sports events.

 

Today, we talk about workflow and process with an emphasis on speed and why Ken thinks fast is part of being a great editor.

 

[show open]

Sarah Taylor:

Welcome, Ken.

Ken Filewych:

Hello, all.

Sarah Taylor:

I want to know how you first discovered editing and your journey to being the editor you are today.

Ken Filewych:

Well, first of all, thank you for asking me. It’s very nice to be asked and hello to everyone joining us. When I was in high school, my dad had some Super Eight home movies he wanted to get transferred to VHS and there was a place in town at Edmonton that if you did it yourself, it was a little cheaper, so he said, “You want to go do this?” And so I said, “Yeah, that sounds like fun.” So, I went and I found it pretty easy and the guys that worked there, the owner said, “Hey, you’re pretty good at this. Do you want to come do this and work at this facility?”

            And so, I took a summer job transferring basically home movies to VHS and it was really interesting, because I thought, “Man, it’s so cool to see just how everyone, all these similar experiences are being told and it was really, really cool.” But the place that I worked at was super shady. And I just remembered there was one Friday, they said we got to move all our gear out of here and put it in the back of this pickup truck and take this gear off this pickup truck and put it back where that was. And of course, that night, the whole place burned down, but when they reopened, they had a lot of really nice gear. And so, I realized that I’d probably been complicit in the crime and then quit.

Sarah Taylor:

Good one.

Ken Filewych:

And went to work for their competitors and their competitors had a VHS Linear Suite, and so people could rent that out and one of the things I did there was a lot of offline work on commercials. So, as I was doing my transferring of home movies, I would, I started kind of dipping my toe in that world of VHS to VHS editing. And so at that time, I actually worked that summer job through high school into university and I was in university in Economics and not doing well or enjoying it. And I thought, “Well, they were starting a film program at U of A the next year, so I transferred and I did that.

            And then after that I went to NAIT and took the radio and television program and yeah, as I was in NAIT, I started cutting news in ITV and to me, that’s when it all started to click. I just loved cutting. I love the speed of it all, but overall, I liked the pressure of it all. And originally when I went to NAIT, I wanted to be a switcher, like on sports events, a director and a switcher for live sports, but I quickly realized that those jobs, people have to die in order for you to get those jobs and-

Sarah Taylor:

Pretty much.

Ken Filewych:

It just wasn’t practical. Anyway, so that’s yeah, that’s how I’ve sort of started and I just always liked TV and film and I thought, “Well,” I didn’t realize it and really, it’s weird, I didn’t realize that you could make living doing it. It never occurred to me until I started sort of, “Oh and actually there are people that do this.” So, that’s how I got started in.

Sarah Taylor:

That’s awesome. And you started in Edmonton, which is great.

Ken Filewych:

Yes.

Sarah Taylor:

How did you then end up getting Heartland? And did you anticipate it being such a long running show going on to your 14th Season, right?

Ken Filewych:

No, I mean, I was asked to come in to interview and I had been recommended by someone and they said they’d like me to be one of their editors and they’d shot the pilot and they had edited the pilot. And they said, “Now, that we’re greenlit, we’re going to shoot some extra scenes, we want you basically to add that to the pilot and then after that, you can start cutting new shows.” And they gave me the tape, VHS, again, VHS. I’m an old man, just for those that their computers aren’t working well. I’ve been doing this a long time. And I took that tape, and I went home, and I put it in my home theater downstairs and it was… terrible. It was so bad.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, no.

Ken Filewych:

And I hit fast forward, and I hit fast forward again, and I watched it basically in four times fast forward. And I went upstairs and went to my wife, and she’s a costume designer, and I said, “If they think this is good, I can’t work on this. It’s terrible.” And she’s like, “Maybe, just, is there anything you could do with it?” And she said, “And if it’s so bad, it won’t last, right?” And so, “Yeah, that’s true.” So, 14 years later…but…

            So, I went back in and I said, “Look, like, I’ll do it, but you have to give me all the original footage,” which at that time was on DV cam, “And let me re-dig [re-digitize] it and let me open up the program and I’ll add the new scenes, but I want to be able to recut the scenes and re-explore the options and just smooth everything out.” Because again, I don’t want to disparage those that had cut it before, but it was a time and money thing. So whatever, however that turned into that, where the pilot was. And so, they said “Sure,” which I don’t know, looking back, it’s like, “I don’t know why they gave me the job really.” And then I did have another career lesson during that same meeting.

            I was waiting to talk to the showrunner, and I’m wandering the hall, and just waiting, and I hear two people in a room say, “Hey, I hear you might be coming to help us out here.” And I said, “Yeah, yeah, I might. Yeah, it looks like I’m going to be editing.” “Oh, good, good.” And they said, “Did you see the pilot?” And I said, “Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s terrible.” It’s like, “Who even talks like that.” And I’m going on…

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, no.

Ken Filewych:

And of course, they were the writers of the pilot.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, dear.

Ken Filewych:

And it’s like, so how I got that job—and then the other thing about that was Dean Bennett, who was the director of the pilot, who is a very good friend of mine now—they had asked him to come and sort of review the new cut, the scenes added. And he was really resistant to come in. I couldn’t figure out why. He didn’t want to come, didn’t want to come. And so finally he comes in to look, and I hit play, and we start watching it, and he stopped me right away. He says, “Did you recut this?” I said, “Yeah, I told him the whole story.” And he basically had a tear in his eyes and said, “I never got the chance to do my cut.” And so, he was so thrilled that we got to work on this and put it in shape.

            And so, anyway, telling that story, it’s certainly not the lesson in how to get a job or keep a job, but yeah, the fact that they hired me, I guess, so I don’t know.

Sarah Taylor:

Well, maybe there’s something to be said about like being creative and not being afraid to tell it like it is, so that you can make it better, like you didn’t go in and say, “This sucks. I don’t want to work for you.” You’re like, “I can make it better.”

Ken Filewych:

Yeah, we just kind of… I wanted to have that discussion, but some good lessons of who to talk to and know who you’re talking to when you’re actually walking down strange hallways, which I thought a good lesson for Ken to learn.

Sarah Taylor:

When to bite your tongue.

Ken Filewych:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

That’s funny. So as I mentioned earlier, you’ve done documentaries, like lots of things, feature films, scripted television. What do you prefer to edit and what do you like best about each of those?

 

Ken Filewych:

I love documentaries. I think it’s just such an editor’s world, right? Like, the questions that come up when you’re doing them, is it balanced, even should it be balanced? Who’s telling the story? And I was thinking about the Michael Jordan doc that’s out right now. It’s a great example. I don’t think you can call that a balanced documentary since he’s an EP and he has final cut on the show, but maybe that doesn’t matter.

            But for The Smalls, I just, I liked the idea that for any documentary, like, it’s about finding that nugget that we all know. And there’s always that moment when the original idea that you started the doc with—something happens and it shifts gears. And it even matters when you’re cutting it or you’re cutting it as they’re shooting, like I was with The Smalls. Or are you cutting it after everything’s been shot, and it’s all in the can? So, for The Smalls, I have a story about that and there’s really two types of people in the world. Those who have never heard of The Smalls, and those that have and they’re like super fans and they think it’s the best band they’ve ever heard. There’s no middle ground, right?

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Ken Filewych:

And when I was in university, they were huge at the U of A. It was right around the time of SNFU and…

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Good old days.

Ken Filewych:

… they never really took off in the east, they never really took off in the west, and so, they were known as this hardworking prairie band that didn’t seem to crack the next level. So, as you mentioned, the documentary is called, Forever is a Long Time. And their last tour was called, Goodbye Forever. And so, I loved that fact. Right there, I was like, “Well, that’s going to be…” so and I’m thinking… so I talked to Trevor Smith, the director of the project, and he says, “This is going to be great. There’s going to be a lot of drama, them getting back together.”

            I knew that when they were breaking up all those years ago, Corb Lund was leaving to go start his country career, and the incredible guitar player stopped playing guitar. He doesn’t play guitar anymore. And the lead singer is framing houses somewhere and they can’t find him. And then the real reason the band broke up was because the drummer, you know, substance abuse—the drummer shot a guy. There’s going to be drama, like mad, right? So, you start cutting it and they’re still shooting, and it just becomes this love fest. The shows are sold out. The band members are all getting along. They’re rediscovering what they had and what they love, and now they’re understanding it through different… and it’s all great for me, but it sucks for the doc, because I was hoping the drummer was going to shoot a guy again.

 

Sarah Taylor:

[Laughing] Oh.

 

Ken Filewych:

So the focus—there’s the perfect example of the documentary. It just, it absolutely changed focus and we made it instead of it about being, “Why didn’t they ever crack and become bigger?” It really was about: they were bigger than anyone ever knew, even themselves. And it was just this beautiful success story. And so, to me, that’s why docs are so fun. It’s writing the story, and we all know that. Everyone, anyone on this call knows that, but that’s why I do love them.

            And I did also like doing commercials and music videos, because there’s always that shorter timeframe and the beginning, middle and end part of it. But in the end, I just like storytelling and it doesn’t matter to me. You learn that storytelling is storytelling, no matter the length of the product, essentially.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I was really excited to see The Smalls doc. Good for you for getting to cut it. That’s awesome.

Ken Filewych:

I mean, of course, it was. No one would ever cut a documentary. No one cuts documentaries to make money or to be sane or any of that, right? I think I paid my nanny more money while I was cutting it at that time, because I probably paid to work on that project.

Sarah Taylor:

Sometimes that’s what it ends up being for sure.

Ken Filewych:

Yeah, but I loved it. I mean, I loved it so much.

Sarah Taylor:

Oh, that’s great. As we mentioned, before you start directing episodes of Heartland, what was it like for you to switch gears and take you off your editor hat and put on your director hat and were there challenges there? Was it easy? Like how did that go for you?

Ken Filewych:

I was pretty fortunate to even get the chance and I’d thank Jamie Paul Rock for that and I had directed other things over the years, but I’ve never done scripted drama, and I thought, “Oh, this will be really good.”

            And I think one thing that, on Heartland in particular, is people underestimate how hard that show is to shoot. People, they see it as this quaint little family show, but anyone that’s filmed in Alberta, I think they’ve realized there’s a lot of… it’s a small market. There’s a lot of challenges just with the weather alone and even with the scenics and the sky. I’ve seen so many directors come and just get eaten alive by the filming out here. It’s just so different. Now, not all, everything’s different, but there is a there’s an aspect to that.

            So for me, I was lucky that I had sort of seen many directors with their successes and failures, kind of through the footage and I was really aware of where the stumbling blocks might be. And I had the support of the cast and the crew and so, I was lucky. I told Jamie, I figured I had one mulligan in me and then after that, they didn’t care and they would throw me under the bus. But the difference between the directing, and editing, is all those things that you say. I was so conscious of not being the director who sits down and says, “So, I’m an editor…” and all of that stuff that you all hate.

Sarah Taylor:

The worst line.

Ken Filewych:

Everything, all the lines that… and I was pretty good for the most part, but there were a couple times when I was really having trouble,  just even getting a point across. But I was also lucky that in the second and third year, for whatever reason, the editor, who did a great job, was only taking it to the director’s cut and so, I actually took over the cuts after that. So, it’s sort of like, “Okay, now I can actually put the hat back on,” and I’m working on things that I actually—but all those times that I used to talk to students and say, “Make sure you never edit your own things and all that stuff.” And it was like, “Okay, well, practice what you preach.” Kind of, right? I was really lucky, yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

With all the experience that you had as an editor, when you went into the actual directing part, did you find that was like a smooth transition for you that you… well, you knew the show because you’ve been working on the show for a while, was there anything there where you were a little nervous or you like stumbled or it just felt natural because you’ve seen it so much?

Ken Filewych:

It’s just, it’s natural. I mean, yeah, it’s all… I think I’ve always said that ADs and Editors make the best directors because what an editor lacks from maybe not being on the floor as much, an AD has all the floor experience, but then they don’t know the other side of it for the most. I think those two worlds I really find or why people… yeah, anyway, but no, it was great and of course, I was nervous, sure, but it went well, so I don’t know. Maybe I was just too dumb to realize what I was biting off.

Sarah Taylor:

No, probably not. Did you have a chance over the years like did you know all the crew and stuff? I think that’s a big thing. As an editor, I think we’re often just the mysterious person that puts the footage together, but doesn’t actually know the crew, but you were able to get a handle on that.

Ken Filewych:

Yeah, I really made a point of that. But having said that, there were a lot of– whether it was actors or other people and then, one of an early assistant actually moved from the office and became an assistant or in one of the early years and she was the super, like she knew everybody, so there were people I didn’t know and drivers and stuff. And so, it was awesome having her because people actually used to visit editing to come talk to her, which, yeah, that’s an unheard of occurrence in the dark rooms, like people were like, “Oh, this is where you guys are.” You’re not all moles.

Sarah Taylor:

[Laughing] “You have a personality.”

Ken Filewych:

Yeah, yeah, “Get away.”

Sarah Taylor:

“Don’t look at me.” Well, we could be all living our dream right now. People that are at home if that’s–

If that was who we are, yeah, right?

Ken Filewych:

That’s the joke. We’ve been self-isolating for years.

Sarah Taylor:

We’ve been practicing for it all of our life, yeah. So, those are my questions and I’m ready to open it up to our audience. Nicky says, “What is the greatest challenge you face on any given day as an editor?”

Ken Filewych:

I just like to challenge myself, so if there’s any repetitive, it’s a repetitive job, and so, I just like to always remain fresh and positive and one of my early lessons cutting news was that I met a bunch of editors and they were miserable human beings and if you come into that, sort of as, “Oh, they didn’t shoot it, and why didn’t they do this, and why and how come?” It doesn’t matter. It’s our job to make things look great without anyone ever noticing or caring about the problem. So, one of my early challenges was learning to remain positive and not get frustrated or blame other people. And to this day, what I try to do, one of my challenges is just to try something new and remain positive. And maybe discover a new way to cut a scene just to keep my mind fresh.

Sarah Taylor:

Jana says, “Was it easier to work a scene knowing how the final result needed to be from being the editor, working as a director?”

Ken Filewych:

I mean, in the end, and everyone’s joking about it, like every single person says, “Well, it’s your problem, isn’t it?” It’s like I guess if you don’t have it, you have no one to blame, but you, and so, I think that’s great, and I embraced that, and it was very funny. But I think all of us, anyone again on this call, we can close our eyes and stand there and, I stand there and I still see things as if I’m watching a monitor because that’s my frame of reference for 25 years. So, when I’m standing on location, all I have to do is just sort of concentrate, and I see everything through that “monitor” and it just happens to be in front of me, whereas–

Sarah Taylor:

That’s interesting.

Ken Filewych:

And I’ll still stand by, which doesn’t mean I’m always at the monitor. I like to stand beside the camera. But it’s funny in my mind’s eye, that’s what I’m seeing, like I’m sure other people are seeing these vast, beautiful vistas and all the rest, but I’m just in this thing that I can just like, “Oh, that’s what this is going to look like and this is how it’s going to cut,” so that’s just how my brain works.

Sarah Taylor:

That’s so cool. Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Well, the questions are coming in. This is exciting. Okay. Ann Kerr, I’m sorry if I pronounced your name wrong. “How would you recommend contacting editors or post production studios in order to do network and further get on to start in the industry?”

Ken Filewych:

Yeah, I mean, that’s the big thing. For me, it was school. I met people in the school that either I still work with today or that told me about someone that I worked with that I moved to Calgary that I worked with and eventually became friends with that, again, still work… like the networking thing, I was never very good at. I don’t like talking. I don’t like self-promotion. I don’t like any of that stuff, but I learned that that’s something you have to do and it’s really just… and it’s different now. I think, Sarah and I, you and I were talking about like I had to volunteer and cut things for award shows or things like that to kind of get my name out there. But now, there is this whole virtual environment where people can get on calls like this and meet people and that’s really the new way of getting your stuff out there.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, word of mouth feels like the biggest-

Ken Filewych:

It’s everything, because-

Sarah Taylor:

It’s how I get my work, too.

Ken Filewych:

It’s so hard to find people that can do the job and that are good people, and that you trust them, and so once those relationships are built, that’s why it’s so interesting.

Sarah Taylor:

Well, that’s why people end up on a series for 14 seasons, right? Like you build that reputation and that relationship, because that’s what it really is and you don’t want to leave your safety net sometimes?

Ken Filewych:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

So, Eric says, “You were going to talk about speed?”

Ken Filewych:

Well, why don’t I do that because this might actually answer some questions. So I told Sarah, I would like to submit my manifesto… I just want to put something on record as to why I think this is all-important and maybe it will answer questions. So, Sarah, when you asked me to do this and for me, I wasn’t sure what I could offer to the CCE because there are so many wonderful and successful editors in the association. And I have often spoken to students, but this is different, because everyone kind of here knows what they’re doing.

            But one of the things that I’ve often been told is that my assemblies are good and I’m fast. And I know that the first rule of editing club is anyone who tells you they’re fast is probably not fast. So, in my defense, that’s what other people say. And also, being fast doesn’t mean you’re any good. You have to be a good storyteller first, but for me being a great storyteller is also about being fast. And sort of here’s why.

            So if I go back to when I graduated film school, I did it as nonlinear was just coming into the world. I was working in linear suites and growing as an editor, both as nonlinear was coming in and as basically, the nonlinear tools were growing. For me, it was never lost on me that flatbed film editors were nonlinear and we had moved away from that for years, until EditDroid and Avid sort of came back. One of my big reasons for editing the way I do it is—I remember when working in a tape-based linear system, and you would often hear, in this $700-an-hour suite, “Well, I guess that’s good enough.”

            And the reason for that, of course, was as changes were made—we were making versions, and sub-masters, and copies, and we’re increasingly degrading the quality of the product, with every pass. In every edit, it seemed to me there was a point where someone would be like, “Well, the quality loss to make another change isn’t worth the change. So it’s good enough.” And I always felt guilty. I felt like that was my fault, because I’m in this room. And so for me, when that was no longer an excuse as the nonlinear stuff was really coming out, I really embraced that. And for me, the faster you could edit, the more you could explore with these new tools.

            And I’ve often talked to students and I’ve often likened it to hunt-and-peck typing. It doesn’t mean you can’t type War and Peace using two fingers, but it would take you a long time. That writing analogy, to me, was very much like the manual type writer versus, now, computer desktop word processing: linear versus nonlinear. And so, for me when that technology was coming out, it was good because I would never have to hear, “It’s good enough again.” Okay, so this is halfway through my manifesto, so bear with me two more minutes and then—

Sarah Taylor:

A minute.

Ken Filewych:

One of the other things I was thinking about when you had asked me to do this, Sarah, was I don’t get a chance to watch other editors work anymore. Earlier on in my career, I would take that chance and you’d watch—and workflows and actions are usually very similar, but sometimes it’d be like a little spark and it was like, “Whoa, that’s a good way of doing that.” And, “Oh, maybe I could incorporate that into the way I do things.” So, I guess for me, having said that, what I’ll show today is my current style of doing things. I don’t feel it’s right or wrong. I find I’m still always tweaking the way I work and adapting, but I just like making myself more efficient.

            And the other thing is, I’ve worked on pretty much every system and I always had found that teaches me new ways to work. For one thing, I’m actually cutting a feature right now in Premiere and I had never opened Premiere until two months ago. I had used After Effects a lot 25 years ago as my comp tool, but the director of the film, he knows Premiere and he wanted me to use it because after the movie is done, he wants to be able to pull sections and actually do a trailer and things like that. I decided to do it, but the dailies weren’t done correctly. I basically organized and adjusted and did all the syncing on a program that I didn’t know two months ago. And I have since apologized to my two current assistants forever being mean and about dailies are impatient. It was a good thing for me to do.

            So I guess, and the last thing I’ll say is that I didn’t realize early on, too, how much I’d have to know about computers. So, when I was getting out of school, I always just assumed that there’d be technicians and people to set up and maintain the gear. And over the years, like I’ve become a way bigger computer nerd than I ever wanted to be and I just think that being able to know what the guts of the tools are become really important as an editor because then you’re never stuck. You don’t have to wait on anybody. That led me into also doing my own VFX and stuff. So I do, do a lot of my own VFX. I do most of those on Resolve and Fusion. Fusion is how I do that.

            So, I guess for me, the quickness comes from–there’s two things. I told you, Sarah, I live by the “hit by a bus” theory. I was never this way early in my career. When a project was done, I often had many files called “new graphic,” or “new, new graphic,” or “new, new, new, new final graphic.”–

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Guilty.

Ken Filewych:

But now, I live very clean. I have clean projects, clean timelines, clean bins, clean directories, and so that I think helps in the speed thing. And then, the other thing that I tend to do is part of my—when people say, talk about the assemblies, I personally want to make my assemblies essentially something that you could broadcast. I’m not saying I’m the only one that does this, but I take it as far as I can. It obviously means dialogue, music, sound effects mix, but it means if there’s any dialogue clarity issues, I go to the wires and find the thing. I have proper music cues, no bumps, do all those VFX temps and all that kind of stuff. Because I never want someone watching the cut for the first time—I never want to have say, “this part would be like that.” Because that’s so distracting, and someone can only view it for the first time once.

            And I want them—that first viewing to me is sacred. Because if they view it and it creates the emotion and informs the [story] problems, I think it’s only helping the process. So, I always say that, when I’m working with a director, I want to be working on the 5% or 10% of the cut that’s sort of the nuance, and the soul, and the emotion. And I don’t want to be re-cutting scenes that kind of weren’t right from the beginning. So, that is my… I actually shaved this morning. I looked like the Unabomber before this morning, so that was my Unabomber Manifesto and why I think speed is important…

Sarah Taylor:

Speed is important.

Ken Filewych:

Because in order to do all this, you need to be fast. In order to kind of get to that stage of meeting the assemblies and all the rest of it, so that’s all.

Sarah Taylor:

Okay, that’s good. Back to directing, Adrian says, “Arriving as a director to a show that has been shooting for a while, where everybody knows each other and there’s a mechanics there, were they receptive to you as a director, as the crews would be like on a standalone project, do you think?”

Ken Filewych:

Well, first off, editors are usually chameleons anyway. I think we’re bartender, counselor—we hear people’s marital problems, we hear all the stuff that goes on in here when people are traveling, and fighting—and sometimes editing is the last thing on people’s minds. So you’re actually counseling people and you’re receptive, and you have to be sensitive to people’s moods, and all these things.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yup!

Ken Filewych:

And depending on who’s in the room, we change. If it’s just the director, we have the one-on-one. But then we’re also facilitators. If there’s a heavy-handed executive producer fighting with the director, we’re facilitating, we’re making progress. We’re making sure we make progress.

 

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Ken Filewych:

I think that’s inherent in us anyway. For me, my editing personality on the show was certainly slightly different than my directing personality. It’s just that clear. But I was very comfortable standing in the middle of the room and taking that on. And I jokingly said, with everyone too, that I’m going back to edit after this, so I can’t be too much of a jerk, because I’ve still got to work with these people for seven months. I was very fortunate people were very receptive, and only wanted to help me.  Yeah, I was very lucky.

Sarah Taylor:

James says, “Hi, Ken. Do you consider yourself a director trapped in an editor’s body?”

Ken Filewych:

No, and that’s a great question. I actually, I always, I feel like an editor. I love directing. I love doing other things, but always, editing is my blood, it is my soul. And I never felt that—but I do love directing as well. But I feel like I come at it from the mindset of an editor, and I’m proud to say that. I never was like, “I can’t wait to call myself a director because I hate being an editor.” Not at all. It’s like, “I love being an editor, and I also just like to direct.”

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. I’m not going to tell you the name of this question because you’re going to know, “Who is your favorite director you’ve ever worked with? And why is it Matt Watterworth?”

Ken Filewych:

[Laughing] Hey, Matt!

Sarah Taylor:

But his serious question is, “What do we, as the Alberta Film and Television community need to do to make ourselves a more active and competitive jurisdiction specifically for homegrown production?” This is a big question.

Ken Filewych:

Yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

I don’t know.

Ken Filewych:

That’s a huge… I mean, look, we’re in a very difficult time across the country with what we’re dealing with, with shows being shut down. We are such a small little jurisdiction anyway. Yeah, that’s an “over-beers” question, I think, I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t have any quick answers there and-

Sarah Taylor:

That’s a whole Zoom call.

Ken Filewych:

That’s a whole other thing, but everyone fights the good fight in all different jurisdictions and that’s what we do.

Sarah Taylor:

Jason asks, the pandemic has resulted in many different challenges for the industry, what challenges do you see in the short term and long term for editors in Canada going forward? And even more specifically, in Alberta. Kind of similar…

Ken Filewych:

Well, I mean, I just don’t see us… our industry is not conducive to just being one of the first to open up, I think it’s the last to open up. I mean, the floor is all about being close to people and hair and makeup, and all the different departments walking all over each other and touching the same pieces of gear. And it’s going to change the way we serve food, it’s going to change catering, change craft service, never mind all the other stuff.

            So, I just think, there’s going to be such a slow return, I think, to what we’re doing that I think the biggest challenges is going to be waiting for enough stuff to be shot, so we can start cutting again. Unfortunately, I think that’s going to be the biggest thing. Luckily, we are a section of the production that is used to cutting essentially, either remotely or in our own worlds. So we as editors are perfectly sort of situated for that. But the front end of the industry is not. We need the content and that’s the challenge.

Sarah Taylor:

There’s been lots of really creative things happening with people coming up with creative ways to get the content. So yeah, it’s exciting and also terrifying. So, Keith says, “I use both Avid and Premiere. I prefer Premiere because I find it a bit more user friendly, but I was wondering why you think a lot of production studios are switching over to Avid?”

Ken Filewych:

I mean, Avid just because it’s legacy gear. I mean, that’s the biggest thing is that there are many editors that only know Avid still to this day. They’ve gone along for the ride the whole time and major experience editors that only know Avid, drive those decisions in the edit suite. Like I said, I’ve worked on everything and there’s so many things, I just wish I could still do a mishmash of different programs. And I’ll say like the interface on Avid, GUI, is terrible. It’s so old, even now with Ultimate, the new version. I love Avid, it looks terrible, it still does. And it bugs me every day and so, I make all my things dark and I try to make it, but yeah, like as a look, it’s not modern, but that’s okay, that’s what people are used to. But that’s why I like using Resolve and trying different things because I really enjoy just seeing how the tools are changing. Did I answer the question?

Sarah Taylor:

I think so.

Ken Filewych:

Yeah, that’s why. It’s just a lot of editors use Avid and have on big shows for all this time. And I think as younger people come in, they decide what they’re going to work with and then that little shift happens all the time in the industry, essentially, I think.

Sarah Taylor:

Totally. Fiona asks, “Do you have any advice to give a student or recent graduate aspiring to be an editor?”

Ken Filewych:

I think just with like any discipline and film, go out and do it. Find your way. The tools have never been better during the… two weeks ago, I ordered the Osmo 3 for my iPhone, so I could play around with a gimbal and 120 bucks later, it’s the most amazing thing ever. I’m doing all these time lapses out my Window and just, I still love doing stuff like that. So, shoot stuff, edit stuff, create things. Some of my favorite projects ever have been friends that we work on bigger shows together that we get some gear and shoot something on a weekend with no one telling us—and those are still some of my all-time favorite projects that I’ve ever done even at this stage, and I still do it, just to keep the creative part of my head in check.

Sarah Taylor:

It didn’t get easier after The Revenant was shot in Alberta, which lots of major Hollywood shows shoot in Alberta, but post, it doesn’t happen.

Ken Filewych:

Yeah. It’s always going to be, this is where we have a new government, we have cap issues, we have the model that we’ve been asking for, for 25 years to have a tax credit. So, I mean, anybody that’s from Alberta will know all the struggles that we’ve had. Until we get a tax credit, the industry here will never grow—and how we sort of have a tax credit, but not really. Let’s not even talk about it, and let’s hope that we all survive another day. People don’t [even] realize what’s been shot here half the time.

Sarah Taylor:

A lot of films are-

Ken Filewych:

So-

Sarah Taylor:

So many films, you’re right, right.

Ken Filewych:

Inception and Bourne. All the things that are coming in and out of here have been amazing. But anyway, let’s stay positive. It’s not a great situation, but let’s hope that we’re okay in a year.

Sarah Taylor:

On that note, let’s learn about editing.

Ken Filewych:

I’m going to talk a little bit again of just about my process, again, not right or wrong, but editing process and some of the things that I think helped me be fast and kind of quickly tell stories. So, I think one of the biggest things is… I can pretty much do almost everything with just my left hand without using the mouse. As I’m editing, I find that if I can do most of the commands with my left hand, I actually am using the mouse as a—I’m alternating sometimes. And even that physical act makes things go quicker. I do a lot of my work on the timeline. Once I’ve cut a scene, I work a ton on the timeline. I think that’s really important.

            Probably, one of the things I think is one of the most useful shortcuts is the mapping from source to the timeline. If my source is Video 1 and Audio 1 and 2, and I want to map it, what I do is I have all of my sources mapped on my keyboard so I can deselect. If I’m in my timeline, I deselect. I can choose Video 1, Audio 1, and 2, simple. But what if I want to remap to Video 2 and Audio 3, 4? Deselect Video 2, Audio 3, 4? Those are the things that you do a million times a day and—

Sarah Taylor:

Totally, yeah.

Ken Filewych:

And the shortcut of that, the rippled to insert or the delete… those are the things to me, that if you just get those maneuvers down, it’s just amazing. And I really feel the mapping—and I actually had trouble with the mapping in Premiere because it’s opposite to that. It actually looks at the source as to what it’s going to put down on the timeline. But even just on the timeline, say I want to select a clip. There’s in/out, there’s ripple/delete. Like just doing those things and that’s all left hand. It’s all stuff that just you can… I wrote down some of the shortcuts that I have mapped and again, I’m sure most everyone has these, but it’s… so the ability to change from source record to the program monitor is I think one of the most useful things, too.

            Using left hand and playing and then I drop down and now I’m playing on the timeline. So again, you’re not ever spending time at all. You need to click here, you need to click here. So those are just some of the things…. So for me, all those things like the insert, overwrite, copy/paste, insert/paste, the ability to add markers, edit markers, the extend edit, all just mapped on the keyboard. One of the other things I really love to do is for trim edits, I think live trimming is really important. So in this case, if I wanted to trim, I can deselect, choose Video 1 and go right into trim. Then using the live trim on the sequence itself, I think is incredibly useful.

            And the reason I also think that’s useful is that I find it’s a way of communicating if you have people in the room. It’s not just about hitting play and then watching the program. It’s about helping people follow what you’re actually doing. When you’re live trimming, I think, “Oh, they can kind of understand that.” We’ve all been there when we open up a bin and there’s something that shows up on the source monitor and everyone’s, “Oh, that reminds me, we got to talk about that.” And I said, “No, no. We were focused on something here.”

            Whatever you show on that program monitor, you’re communicating to those in the room. Even if someone’s talking and saying they’re having trouble getting out a thought about it, and you kind of realize what they’re talking about… what I’ll do is, I’ll often just take my playhead, and if I know this is the shot they’re talking about, I might just kind of… wander back and forth, and even do maybe a look at a shot before, a shot after, so on the program monitor that’s happening. It’s one of the ways to spark people because if you know what they’re trying to get out, and they can’t get it out, you’re helping them find that.

            This also goes to my theory of new directors versus experienced directors. I truly believe that you can tell at what stage of career a director is in by how close they’re standing to you, or the monitor, and in particular—

Sarah Taylor:

Or your keyboard.

Ken Filewych:

Or the keyboard. Okay, so John Fawcett, Bruce McDonald, Grant Harvey, they’re sitting back there. They have a script for another show open. They have their computer on. They’re responding to emails and they look up once in a while and they say, instead of saying when to cut, they say, “You know we need to build a beat there. That still isn’t synced. That doesn’t quite work for me.” I think, “is there another way to get into that? Is there? What about? What about? I don’t know? Is there just something else we can use?” And so, then that’s part of the conversation.

            New directors stand next to you, touch your screen, touch the monitor, and they can’t—you’re also working usually three frames—or three cuts ahead or behind. So, if you’re watching the monitor, we all know that what [it appears] you’re doing often isn’t what you’re actually doing. And so, there have been times when one day a director comes in and starts touching near my screen and then they come in the next day, and wouldn’t you know that my briefcase is there on a table, and I’ve barricaded myself in. It’s like, “Don’t stand—”

Sarah Taylor:

“I need my safety bubble.”

Ken Filewych:

Yeah. I think that’s the best thing about COVID is I’m going to be able to say, “Social distancing, please.”

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. “Get away from me.” No, I get it.

Ken Filewych:

So, it’s funny that… and I guess that goes to the other point of when we were talking about directing to editing. We should speak in terms of story, right? There’s a new director snapping their fingers and telling you where to cut. It has nothing to do with that cut usually. Usually that one cut is related to three other cuts and if you change that one, you’re going to need to reshape and re-time. It’s that awareness that I think as an editor you realize that’s what you’re doing. And again, to me, it also speaks to the speed thing. Where you’re just sort of going, “Okay, here’s what I have to do.” And if they’re in the room, you want to do it as quick and efficiently as possible, not to distract people.

            One thing that I use all the time, we all know how valuable real estate is on a desktop. What I like to do is in the timeline presets, what I mostly cut in when I’ve put a show together, if I’m in a stage where I’m actually looking, now I have music and all the rest, I have something called “dialogue and music.” And what does that mean? Well, it means that my one, two tracks—I’ll back up. Normally, the way I organize my timeline is Audio 1, 2, 3 and 4 are dialogue; 5, 6 are sound effects; and 7, 8, 9 and 10 are music. And, again, not a revelation, but I stick to that as much—I just stick to it.

            When I’m editing and I can see my dialogue when we’re mixing, it’s quite easy to [see], “Oh, look, there’s my key frames. There I can now duck the audio under.” Well, what if I’m on a “sound effect?” Well, I quickly have a sound effect, so it changes the size of my tracks. What if I have four tracks of dialogue and I want to do all four tracks of dialogue? So it’s, again, not everyone—I’m sure people do this, but I use this so much… because there’s nothing to me that’s less efficient than having to manually resize your tracks, right?

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah.

Ken Filewych:

And so, I just set up, and it’s one of the first things I do. I always make sure I have music, all four. So if I’m ducking between two music on 7, 8, 9, 10, I quickly change that and now, you’re back to your normal way. I think that’s a really important one.

Sarah Taylor:

I’m primarily Premiere and I know there’s people on the call that are primarily Premiere, knowing and they’re like, “Oh, Avid, it takes 27 things, steps to do the one thing I can do in Premiere,” but if you know that you have all these different options of pre-organizing, like pre-setup. I think that’s the biggest thing is to know how to preset up your shortcuts and everything, so that you don’t have to do everything in 20 steps. It’s just yeah, clicking different things on and off.

Ken Filewych:

When I started that Premiere project, I basically opened up the keyboard and I started figuring out how to do things. I said, “Okay, so here’s how I do this.” What’s the equivalent in Premiere? And I created ways of doing it in Premiere. So, the other—what about selecting trim edits? Well, this, I’m now clicking, is very inefficient. Especially if you’re doing, “Okay, I’m going to click here…” What if you’re able to select your track, and I just select V1 and I’m on a keyboard shortcut one touch, and now I’m actually live trimming that without ever using my mouse. That’s invaluable. All those little things add up during the day.

            Another tool that I use a lot is Script Sync in Avid. Now, those of us that know Avid from years ago know that Script Sync was a really great idea, but it was never very practical because what you have to do was have an assistant go through your bins and your clips and manually add basically key frames on a text file in order to sync the video clip to where it is on the script. Every morning, I have my new scenes and I open up my script, I review every bin, I sync it to the script and now, I know, okay, now I kind of have that idea in my head of just how much I have to get done just to get the new footage cut. I find that one invaluable. I really love how it just starts my day and kind of, yeah, gets me in the mind of okay, these are, now I’ve looked at every scene, I know what the coverage is.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. Jana says this is why people work in Avid instead of Premiere.

Ken Filewych:

I’m agnostic. I’m editing agnostic. I love everything.

Sarah Taylor:

One other question someone has here is, “When you’re working on a project, do you often make separate sequences for your different scenes and then add them to the assembly or do you cut?”

Ken Filewych:

So, the way I set up my project is… on Heartland, we shoot two episodes per block like most. I have the sequences bin that contains right from my first draft all the way to my picture lock. I have a color code on each of the shows as well. My odd number shows, all the related bins are in red, and if I would open up 1306 sequences [even numbered], all the 1306 sequences are in blue, or the bins are in blue. I actually know which show I’m looking at just by looking at the bin color. And yes, I actually use sequences on my cuts. The way that I cut a scene is— I actually prioritize every little section of the scene as I’m cutting it.

Show dialogue:

Oh, look who it is Mr. Aspen Grove Beef.

Ken Filewych:

And I keep doing that.

Show dialogue:

Look, who it is, Mr. Aspen Grove Beef. Mr. Aspen Grove Beef.

Show dialogue:

I came to clear the air. I came to clear the air.

Ken Filewych:

As I’m assembling that on the sequence, I’m actually prioritizing and deciding, which one I liked more. So, the first line, okay, that’s great. If at the second take I liked it more, I put it before the other clip.

Sarah Taylor:

I get it.

Ken Filewych:

And then, after I’m done going through all my footage, I never have to go back to the source footage in a source monitor ever again… because I have this document essentially that I’ve gone through and I’ve prioritized what I think is—so if someone says, “Was there another take?” Yes. I’d go to the next one on my timeline and say, “Oh, yeah, this is the one I liked second most.” And once it’s in a timeline like this and you’ve sourced your material like this… I mean, I can cut the scene in three minutes. I can cut the whole thing in three minutes just by knocking out… and going through.

            And then the nice thing is, what if you are making a cut and you’re, “Oh, you know what? The continuity doesn’t match there.” And so, I just go to the next one and I use that one instead. And so, you have all these options just right in front of you and it is so efficient and quick to work like that and it also is a great tool when people say, “Well, what about something else?” You’re able to call it up and you can basically recall what you were thinking three weeks ago when you cut them.

Sarah Taylor:

So, what do you call this sequence when you’re organizing it?

Ken Filewych:

I actually call it “My Selects” and then I do a fine cut of it as a sequence on a separate timeline in the bin before I add it to my ongoing and ever building master timeline. The other thing, I actually do, well, I have my assistants do, is as timing is always an issue, I have a bin called “Script Timings.” And the Script Timings, I actually create a sequence, and all it is [is] titles. Based on the script timings from the last table read, I create a sequence of all of the scenes in the show with their proper timings and then I use this to—once I’ve cut a scene, I duplicate the sequence and I put my finished sequences into this and replace the title.

            The reason that’s so cool is that as you’re going, you’re actually timing your show with the new scenes I shot. The show timed out four and a half minutes heavy from the outset. So, now as I’m cutting and inevitably someone comes in and says, “Look, we got to drop a scene. How’s the show timing?” And you look, you say, “Yeah. Actually, we’re right on what we were for the script timing.” And because you know you don’t have to go and have someone time it out. So, I actually find that one incredibly helpful as well.

Sarah Taylor:

I would never have thought to do that. That’s great. Cool. Huh! I’ve taken that note for myself.

Ken Filewych:

There you go, so someone’s learning one thing. Yay!

Sarah Taylor:

One question about script sync. So, if you have multiple resets at a single take, it often chooses just the one line?

Ken Filewych:

Correct.

Sarah Taylor:

Or do you have a workaround for that?

Ken Filewych:

Well, there’s two things you can do, you can actually duplicate the clip and put it in twice. That’s also why I really—man, one slate per run is so much easier. But actually, that’s probably one of the rules I broke the most on the day when I was directing was, “Keep rolling, go again.” And I was just like, “Oh, Ken, you terrible human being.”

Sarah Taylor:

And then you’re like cursing yourself at the end.

Ken Filewych:

So, what you can do is, say this first take was run twice, you can actually set an in/out marker for the first take, select where it happens on the script, and when you drag it over, sync between first and last mark. What it’s doing is actually telling it to just sync using that first section of the clip. Then I just take the clip again, make new in/outs and drag it over a second time and tell it to sync to that. So, it’s not as elegant, but it certainly works.

Sarah Taylor:

Derek is wanting to know how you approach pacing in your edit.

Ken Filewych:

To me editing is music. It’s loud and soft, fast and slow, tension and release. That is what we’re creating. Those little moments of adding a beat before a cut… what does that mean? It means that, “Oh, someone took an extra thought.” If you jump on it, it means they didn’t have a chance to do a thought. Every one of those little techniques is about storytelling. That’s every single scene. And I would say my biggest learning as my career has gone on, is that when I first started cutting drama, I would cut a scene as a stand alone, with no thought to the greater picture. Now as I cut a scene, I’m actually thinking about the whole thing.

            I’m thinking about what comes before and what comes after. And I’m thinking, would we ever want to reveal this so early, or do we want to make a point, and point this out that someone had this thought. I’m already thinking about that when I go back to my assemblies. And it’s not conscious, but I just realized now, when I go through them, “Oh, I must have had that thought because I cut it differently than I remembered cutting.” It was purely because of, maybe, a piece of information. That all happens in the pacing of the show. How do you set up drama? Well you introduce tension and you release it. Or you quicken a pace and then slow it down? It’s all that. That is the craft.

Sarah Taylor:

What’s your process like? Do you read the script? So, you have Episode Five of Season 13, did you read the full script first? Do you read the scripts that were shot? What is your process on that side? Or do you look at the footage and read the script as you’re going?

Ken Filewych:

I tend to. I’ll definitely read the last script before production starts. I actually find the table reads informative, even though a lot of it isn’t exactly how it’s going to be. But I can start to visualize it when I go to those table reads.

Sarah Taylor:

Do you always go?

Ken Filewych:

Yep, yeah, I always go. So I’ve done my script sync and now, I have all my new scenes ready for the day. I’ll open up my first new scene and I will read the continuity notes, really with an eye only to if there is a problem. So, something in red that says, “Hair not good,” whatever those things are.  Then I cut the scene basically not looking at circle takes or even preferences. I don’t look at that. I don’t really want to know who liked what, because it should be apparent. Actually, I find it’s not my job. And it just doesn’t work that way.

            I find if you say, “this is the best take.” Well, sure, 70% of it might be, but the other 30% might be amazing, [if] you build in your emotion by using multiple takes. Once I read the script, I just cut it just from the footage. Then if you were to go back and look at my selects and look at it to the lined script, I guarantee you that 95% of it is probably what was thought of on the day as the best, and that sort of thing. But I’m certainly not guided by, “Just use this take.” I never do that.

Sarah Taylor:

So, it’s a lot of your instinct?

Ken Filewych:

100%. The best compliment you can get is someone says, “Wow, I never would have thought of that.” They’re the ones who shot it and they say, “I never would have thought of that. I just love it.” That’s when you’re like, “There, that’s doing the job.”

Sarah Taylor:

So, Nigel is asking, “I’m assuming you’re working in hours, 60-hour workweek? Do you have any tips for work-life balance and how do you manage having a family and working such long hours?”

Ken Filewych:

Oh, my God. That’s another “over-beer” one, isn’t it? No, I mean, my wife’s a costume designer and my two girls are 13 and 11. We’ve employed two nannies often. It’s a terrible industry for work-life balance. I remember sitting upstairs in the office a couple of years ago, and Bill Jansen, the Transport Captain was looking at me. And I’m like, “Bill, what are you looking at?” And he said, “I’m just trying to think if I know anybody else other than you and Jen that are Key Creatives that are still married in Alberta?”

Sarah Taylor:

Good for you.

Ken Filewych:

And so, everyone started taking up the challenge. And everyone’s like, “What about?” “No, they’re divorced.” “Okay, what about?” “No, no. They…” And then no one could think of another couple. And so, no, it’s terrible. It’s absolutely terrible. I have no advice other than it’s important to somehow find it. but I don’t know what it is. We have that discussion as a couple to this day because it’s terrible. Sorry.

Sarah Taylor:

That’s okay. That’s the reality.

Ken Filewych:

I wish-

Sarah Taylor:

I’m curious, does your wife work on some of the stuff, same stuff you work on?

Ken Filewych:

No. We’ve done a few movies together and we’ve actually tried to alternate. When we can we try to do things like that. But to be honest, that hasn’t always worked out. Luckily, in editing, I would say, I’m for the most part, more flexible. Well, I am. She works 20 hours a day, seven days a week and on set. I would say I’m the one that probably ends up being a little more flexible in that, but yeah, it’s tough.

Sarah Taylor:

So, James is asking, “So, two to three hours of dailies versus nine hours of dailies. Curious as to how you would change your approach of your daily routine. Some shows have insane amounts of footage that make it difficult to keep a locked down routine.”

Ken Filewych:

Right. You know what? The dailies, the amount of dailies, doesn’t change my routine other than I do find that if I don’t get an early start on the new scenes, I find it really difficult to start. For example, say we have a production meeting for the next block that I’m going to go to, and it’s from 9:00 to 11:00. I go to that. And if I then come to do my new scenes, I find it really difficult to get in that mindset and start the day. So, I really like attacking new things early in the morning, while I’m fresh, and I leave mixing and VFX, and all those other things I might do, till later in the day. That’s my only personal preference. It doesn’t really shift the amount of the footage. You just get through it and that’s the only—

Sarah Taylor:

Use Ken’s techniques and then you’ll go faster.

Ken Filewych:

That’s right.

Sarah Taylor:

Matt’s asking if you can go into more detail on how you file, your file naming, and folder structure.

Ken Filewych:

For me, a folder structure is—I have a “new bin scene” that the assistants put in. So even while I’m cutting in the morning, if I only have one bin of it, or one scene available, as I’m cutting that scene, the new bins of new scenes are actually being added as I cut, pretty standard. I have a “completed scenes” folder. In order to get my head around what I’ve done, and what I need to do, I just keep dragging and dropping in there. It feels like an accomplishment every time you put something else in there.

            I do have favorite bins that travel from block to block. In those favorite bins, I keep things like “resizing,” and “titles.” I keep a bunch of templates, so that as I’m cutting, I never have to open up “effects.” I just drag and drop 100% blow-up, and then open it up, and then do the change. I find those really helpful, too. If you have a bunch of pre-built effects that you can just drag and drop at any time.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah. What’s your solution to the export reel, “final, final, final version 3.mov” file name problem?

Ken Filewych:

I just make sure at the root… say if I can’t find a sound effect, and I’m like, “You know what, Jerry? Can you find this for me? It’s probably something we’re going to have to download.” We have sound effects folders that we put raw materials in. It goes in there no matter if it’s new or old. Then when we import it, what he might say, “I opened up your Scene 32 and your sound effect is in Scene 32 because that’s where it goes, and it’s called Motorcycle Drives By.”

            So, we just never put a new bin, a new file. We don’t name it that way. It’s named what it’s always going to be named and it goes in the same spot every time. You can tell my old man, that’s the one thing that—

Sarah Taylor:

Like, “This is how we do it.”

Ken Filewych:

It’s like the only thing that I’m particular about. I’m a very easygoing editor, but that is one thing that it’s just what I asked that’s like, “You know what? It makes me happy.” And I want to be able to always just not have to search for them.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, for sure. Jana is asking, “Do you do the color correction for your edits or is it more for a reference to the show, like for your first cut?”

Ken Filewych:

I’ll color correct—and that’s a good question, because they’re dailies—but one thing on this, on Heartland in particular, we really take our dailies far, too, because we want it to be less work as we all have time constraints. We really wanted a good flow there, so yeah, I’ll just color correct and throw it in. But when I send it to Technicolor, when they conform, I just send them the log Cs basically with the effects, with no color on it. So, I end up having two versions on my system.

Sarah Taylor:

So, what made you decide to use Resolve and Fusion as opposed to After Effects?

Ken Filewych:

That’s a good question. I don’t know why I originally did that. I just really enjoyed the nodes. I was using Resolve earlier even before Fusion was part of it. I thought the motion tracking was really good. And I’m sure After Effects is too. And I’ve used After Effects even since then. I just for some reason ended up in Fusion, but no particular…. I just like the look of the program. To me, it just looks like a modern piece of gear.

Sarah Taylor:

And Jana says, “And that’s how you are on this show for 14 Seasons. True storyteller soldier.”

Ken Filewych:

Exactly, hey.

Sarah Taylor:

Jana is asking, “Do you edit on Resolve, too or do you just use Color and Fusion?”

Ken Filewych:

I’ve edited some short films on Resolve. Originally, when I was asked to do the movie I’m doing now, I actually wanted to do it in Resolve. The problem is, it doesn’t talk well to others with [in terms of] audio. So, it’s an amazing dailies creation tool. People, please email me if you have discover something that I haven’t. But for the most part, as far as I understand, most people will still sync on other programs, and throw it into Resolve to export their dailies. And the reason is, the minute you sync, it has a great sync tool, the minute you sync video to audio in Resolve, the audio metadata takes on the metadata of the video clip. And so, when you export your sort of “all maps,” and after the fact, the metadata from the audio files no longer exists.

            So, that’s been my experience. I don’t know if someone has figured out a way because I’d love to cut in Resolve, different things. When I’ve done short films, I’ve done it in Resolve to keep it compact and very efficient for someone that say, if they have Resolve, you have color correction, whoever, but then the audio is always a bit of an issue and figuring out a way to round trip that.

Sarah Taylor:

Eric says, “You’re very versatile. Very impressive.”

Ken Filewych:

I think that’s the Calgary, the Alberta guy in me, just be I’ve had to be, right? To kind of-

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, yeah. Small market.

Ken Filewych:

Small market. You kind of going to do a lot of different things and-

Sarah Taylor:

Matt is asking, “I’m curious about how a new producer might best approach you about working together? What should you have prepared? What questions should you be prepared to answer? And where should the script ideally be before being approached if somebody was going to approach you?”

Ken Filewych:

Well, I always, I’m perfectly willing to talk to people about anything. I’ve always hired a ton of practicum students over the years. As far as projects go, yeah, anybody emails me and we just sit down and have a coffee and talk about stuff. And yeah, I love the early talks about how, what’s being shot, where it’s shot, how we’re shooting it? I kind of love that discovery of helping the technology kind of solve problems and yeah.

Sarah Taylor:

Solve problems before they happen, because you know that they will?

Ken Filewych:

Before they happen, yeah, absolutely.

Sarah Taylor:

Any advice for working with actors as a director?

Ken Filewych:

Again, that’s the chameleon in us, editors. I never judge an actor from what I’ve heard, either. Because you hear about certain actors and then you go meet them and maybe you just jive with them. And they never glance sideways at you once. Then an actor that you heard is wonderful to work with is actually terrible to you or something like that. You have to read the room and you read those people and you decide when you have to be firm. Luckily, on Heartland when I’m directing, I know a lot of these guys as what I would call friends now, too. But they all need to be handled differently, right?

            Some people [are like], “Tell me where to stand. I don’t need to talk about my motivation, just tell me what you want to see.” And others will get you in the van on the way to lunch and talk your ear off for 45 minutes, talking about how to open the door properly, right? The biggest thing is actors are almost, to a person, insecure. It’s not surprising because they’re putting everything out there. I couldn’t do it. When those tantrums occur and mic packs are thrown, or whatever happens, it’s usually out of… it’s just like my kids. “Why are you acting that way? Because you’re scared about school tomorrow. Oh, I see. So, that’s why you called me the worst dad in the world. Got it.”

            Being a dad was the best training for directing. Getting that sixth sense about what’s actually bothering someone, and that’s like editing. When someone in the room is going, “God, that cut is the most terrible cut ever, and blah, blah, blah.” And it’s like, “Okay. Well, I don’t think they’re talking about the cut.” That’s a bad example. No one says that, but when someone’s struggling with something, and then you go, “Is it because of this thing over here?” And it’s like, “Oh, you’re right. That is what’s bothering me.” And then you’re, “Oh, okay.” So, you know what? You just have to be perceptive and figure out where that problem actually lies.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, totally. Do you have a favorite mouse for editing? You don’t like using your mouse very often.

Ken Filewych:

Right now I have a Kensington trackball. I’ll change it up once in a while just to kind of get the claw different. I do have Intuos, a Stylus, and a pad as well. I’ve never been able to edit with that, although I see people doing it. I do use that for some of my paintings, sometimes, just to change it up, and just to do something different.

Sarah Taylor:

Any other like organizational software or anything like that, that you use to make your life better?

Ken Filewych:

I like to use drive cataloguing software because I like to know what’s on my drives. Because I’ve had to offload certain things after this show. I have every shot piece of daily accessible to me, except the first season. I have every audio music. I have every music cue ever written for the show at my instant disposal.

Sarah Taylor:

Cool.

Ken Filewych:

I have every broadcast master. I have every sound effects, dialogue, and music stem ever written. It’s all accessible at the touch of a button for me. The few times I’ve had to offload things, I like to keep some drive management software, just simple text reading, so that we can actually do a search.

Sarah Taylor:

Is there often like in Heartland, is there lots of like flashbacks or is that a thing that you often have to do and find? Yeah.

Ken Filewych:

More for recaps, maybe a new storyline comes in again, reference some, so we are able to throw that in a recap or something like that.

Sarah Taylor:

Awesome.

Ken Filewych:

Well, thank you everyone for sticking it out and thank you, Sarah, for asking me to and I hope people found it useful or something.

Sarah Taylor:

You have given us lots of great insight, myself now, I feel like maybe I’ll dig into the Avid and give it another try. Just kidding. No, it’s been great. I think that I look forward to you teaching a live class one day in Edmonton, so I can go and learn even more, so I’m putting it out there. There’s always something to learn. It’s great. I love hearing from editors and picking brains and seeing how everybody’s brains work, so this has been a joy. So, thank you, Ken.

Ken Filewych:

Well, thank you guys very much, and thank you, Sarah for asking. And I hope everyone is staying safe and I hope the work just flows in when it starts up again and everyone’s working and happy and healthy.

Sarah Taylor:

Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Okay, well, take care everybody and we will all see you soon.

            Thank you so much for joining us today and a big thank you goes to Ken for taking the time to sit with us. Special thanks goes to Jane MacRae and Alison Dowler. The main title sound design was created by Jane Tattersall. Additional ADR recording by Andrea Rush. Original Music provided by Chad Lang. This episode was mixed and mastered by Tony Babb.

            The CCE has been supporting Indspire – an organization that provides funding and scholarships to Indigenous post secondary students. We have a permanent portal on our website at cceditors.ca or you can donate directly at indspire.ca. The CCE is taking steps to build a more equitable ecosystem within our industry and we encourage our members to participate in any way they can. 

 

If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and tell your friends to tune in. ‘Til next time I’m your host Sarah Taylor.

 

[Outtro]

The CCE is a non-profit organization with the goal of bettering the art and science of picture editing. If you wish to become a CCE member please visit our website www.cceditors.ca. Join our great community of Canadian editors for more related info.

Subscribe Wherever You Get Your Podcasts

What do you want to hear on The Editors Cut?

Please send along any topics you would like us to cover or editors you would love to hear from:

Credits

A special thanks goes to

Jane MacRae

Malcolm Taylor

Hosted, Produced and Edited by

Sarah Taylor

Main Title Sound Design by

Jane Tattersall

ADR Recording by

Andrea Rusch

Mixed and Mastered by

Tony Bao

Original Music by

Chad Blain

Sponsor Narration by

Paul Winestock

Categories
Past Events

Editing Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult with Inbal B. Lessner, ACE and Gillian McCarthy

Editing Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult with Inbal B. Lessner, ACE and Gillian McCarthy
Jan 12, 2021

This event took place on January 12, 2021

Presented in English / Présenté en anglais

Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult chronicles the extraordinary and harrowing journey of India Oxenberg – the daughter of Hollywood actress Catherine Oxenberg and a descendant of European royalty – who was seduced into the modern-day sex-slave cult NXIVM. More than 17,000 people, including India, enrolled in NXIVM’s “Executive Success Programs,” a front for the cult and a hunting ground for its leader, master predator Keith Raniere. Women in DOS, a secret master-slave society within NXIVM, were sex-trafficked and branded with a cauterizing iron. Both about a mother trying to save her daughter and recovery from trauma, the series follows India’s seduction, indoctrination, enslavement, escape – and her role as “co-conspirator” in assisting the U.S. government with bringing down Raniere and his criminal enterprise. In addition to being a rigorous and unsparing examination of India’s abuse and her own culpability, it explores how India and a chorus of other women are still grappling to make sense of their experience. The series also showcases extensive insider footage and exposes the inner circle of enablers around Keith Raniere.

This series is about women by women. It had women in all key positions, and they took great care in creating an environment for the cult survivors who shared their stories, in which they felt supported before, during and after filming. We will discuss the ins and outs of shaping such a complex and sensitive story and the challenges that Inbal and Gillian came across in the edit suite.

Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult is available on Crave in Canada and on the Starz app almost anywhere else, a secure link will also be shared with people who RSVP! This talk will be moderated by Sarah Taylor.

Sarah Taylor is award-winning editor with over eighteen years of experience. She has a passion for storytelling and has cut a wide range of documentaries, corporate videos, television programs, and full length feature films. Her work has been seen in festivals around the world including Sundance. She is a member of the Directors Guild of Canada (DGC) and is the host of the CCE podcast The Editor’s Cut.

Inbal B. Lessner, ACE, is an Emmy® and Eddie-nominated editor and producer. On her latest project, “SEDUCED: Inside the NXIVM Cult,”  which she co-created with her filmmaking partner, Director Cecilia Peck, she takes on the roles of Lead Editor, Writer and Executive Producer. This four-part documentary series, premiering on STARZ, follows one young woman’s perilous journey through the dark and criminal world of NXIVM, the notorious self-help-group-turned-sex-slave-cult. 

Inbal and Cecilia Peck’s last collaboration was the Emmy-nominated feature documentary Brave Miss World, which debuted on Netflix in 2014. It is the story of an Israeli beauty queen, who was raped seven weeks prior to her winning the Miss World pageant, and her crusade to reach out to fellow survivors while trying to keep her own rapist behind bars. 

In 2019, Inbal edited and co-produced “The Movies: The Golden Age,” executive produced by Tom Hanks, Gary Goetzman and Mark Herzog. This was the latest in her 4-year-long collaboration with the team that produced CNN’s Emmy-nominated “Decades” series. Inbal has edited seven episodes in the series and was nominated for an ACE Editing Award for “The Nineties: Can We All Get Along.”

Inbal’s editing credits include ReMastered: The Two Killings of Sam Cooke (Netflix Original, Dir. Kelly Duane), nominated for an Outstanding Documentary NAACP Image Award, and Autism: The Sequel, (HBO, Dir. Tricia Regan), a follow-up to the Emmy-winning Autism: The Musical (2007). She edited and co-produced the internationally acclaimed, award-winning, I Have Never Forgotten You, about Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal.  Inbal also directed the docudrama Night Bites and was second-unit producer on the HBO/ARTE documentary Watermarks.

Over the course of her career, Inbal has worked in the cutting rooms of directors such as Davis Guggenheim (Teach), R.J. Cutler (“American Candidate”), Kief Davidson and Daniel Junge (A Lego Brickumentary), Jeremy Simmons (“Transgeneration”), Tracy Droz Tragos (Be Good, Smile Pretty) as well as Natalie Portman’s feature directorial debut (A Tale of Love and Darkness). 

Inbal began making films when she was in high school and later produced training films for the Israeli Defense Forces.  At NYU, she was the recipient of the prestigious, merit-based, WTC Johnson Fellowship, awarded to one student filmmaker a year.  Since moving to Los Angeles, Inbal has edited hundreds of hours of non-scripted network and cable television shows. She was also a Visiting Professor at UNCSA Film School, and a mentor in the Karen Schmeer Diversity in the Edit Room Program.

Gillian McCarthy is an accomplished editor whose creative style combines compelling storytelling with a cinematic sensibility.  Her feature documentary credits include the Oscar nominated Operation Homecoming: Writing the Wartime Experience, Girl Rising, and Above and Beyond: 60 Years of NASA. Her television credits include work for ABC, PBS, Showtime, STARZ, Discovery and OWN.  She learned her craft working in the most precise form of visual storytelling, the television commercial, editing countless national campaigns in New York and Toronto.  A dual American and Canadian citizen, she lives in Los Angeles.

With thanks to our sponsors

About the Event

January 2021

5:00pm -7:00pm CT

Canada

en_CAEN

stay connected

Subscribe to our mailing list to
receive updates, news and offers

Skip to content